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Geek Culture / The Evolution of English

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mamaji4
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Posted: 7th Sep 2008 22:42
I sometimes wonder about the evolution of all natural languages.

I think the shape of the comma and the period evolved like this.
In ancient times whenever you wanted to pause mid sentence you put a symbol and that symbol was a dot.
However, because you haven't finished the sentence and are in a hurry to continue, you try to put a dot but the dot gets extended into a line and turns into a comma. At the end of the sentence, you have all the time in the world to reflect on your beautiful sentence so you put the dot and are in no hurry to continue. So the dot remains a dot and became the period, and the jerky dot became the comma.
Benjamin
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Posted: 7th Sep 2008 22:44 Edited at: 7th Sep 2008 22:48
Yes, I'm sure this played a pivotal role in the evolution of English as a whole.

Someone told me an alternate theory:

Quote: "it's actually because they looked at the Arial font and noticed the comma and after looking it up in a dictionary learned how to use it"


mamaji4
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Posted: 7th Sep 2008 22:48

Yeah and the word whole. Well a hole can't be a half, so the natural extension was to prefix a 'w' and get the word 'whole'
dark coder
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Posted: 7th Sep 2008 22:48 Edited at: 7th Sep 2008 22:50
I'm pretty sure they just looked in the dictionary for the definition of 'comma' and 'full stop' and then knew what to use and how to use it.

Benjamin
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Posted: 7th Sep 2008 22:50
Quote: "I'm pretty sure they just looked in the dictionary for the definition of 'comma' and 'full stop' and then knew what to use and how to use it."

Ah, I see you're also familiar with the Arialus-Commas theory.

mamaji4
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Posted: 7th Sep 2008 22:57
What I can't figure out is how a series of Neanderthal grunts can evolve into a cohesive language.
Why are there redundant consonants like v and w?

If I can be in love, I could easily have been in lowe if my teachers hadn't taught me otherwise.
Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 7th Sep 2008 23:13 Edited at: 7th Sep 2008 23:15
Quote: "Why are there redundant consonants like v and w?"

They aren't redundant, unless you're Korean.

What does seem redundant are your pseudo thought provoking threads mamaji4

Quote: "I could easily have been in lowe"

I like to shop at Lowe's too.


Come see the WIP!
BiggAdd
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Posted: 7th Sep 2008 23:24
Quote: "What I can't figure out is how a series of Neanderthal grunts can evolve into a cohesive language."

Its not as if in one day, one of them turned round:

"Do you know what old bean? I think I have jolly well learned how to talk. How very strange"

You only have to look at the development of Maths to see how capable the human mind is at doing extraordinary things.

Alucard94
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Posted: 7th Sep 2008 23:31
Quote: "Its not as if in one day, one of them turned round:

"Do you know what old bean? I think I have jolly well learned how to talk. How very strange"
"

When I think about that in Swedish it just gets even more hilarious every time! Jolly good!


Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 8th Sep 2008 01:49 Edited at: 8th Sep 2008 01:57
English is a Germanic language that has a lot of borrowings from various languages. Its Germanic base coming from the Viking, Saxon, Jute and Angle invaders - the Latinate parts coming from the Normans and Catholicism. And over time words change form and we pick up new words and lose old ones. Also note words like Pig and Pork, Cow and Beef etc. they mean the same thing, but we have more than 1 word because of different sources, when the Normans took over England you had the Old English working the farms and bringing the food to the Nobles, who were of course Norman/French, so on the farms they would be called 'pigs and cows' as their native form and the Nobles eating them as food would have 'Pork' and 'Beef' instead. So that's why we only call it Pork when it's food instead of a living animal.

If you look at Old Norse for example, the word 'út', means 'out', if you read it out loud, notice how Scottish you sound - I believe (rather than was taught) that this may have something to do with the Vikings that were in Scotland, though in England we have the dipthong to make it 'out', but it seems the Scottish have kept an Old Language in its dialect and you may see this sort of thing duplicated in other dialects (there was a story Caxton told when he invented the printing press about the words 'Eggys' and 'Eyren' for the word egg, both words were different dialects)

But there are a lot of attributes to the evolution of English.

If you look at the languages across Indo-Europe and over time, you'll notice words are connected or are similar - Mater, Mutter, Moðir, Mother, Madre, (and I can't remember the sanskrit) as an example. And scholars have been looking deeply at this with the idea that maybe they all rooting from one language/tribe, but of course being before a writing system reached Europe they can't actually find any physical evidence to support it, but by using existing and known languages they've undergone an attempt to reconstruct this language, called, Proto-Indo European, or better known as PIE (best name in the world)

A couple of books I might recommend are: The Adventure of English by Melvyn Bragg and The Orgins of the British by Stephen Oppenheimer. (Not language based, but it shows you genetic evidence to tell the history of England before the Saxons invaded) Also David Crystal's Encyclopedia of Language has a section dedicated to language change, which explains how and why languages change. But as for Proto-indo European , there's a website(which has a flow diagram showing how languages evolved from it): PIE It might also be interesting to look at older Germanic languages that built up to English, like Old English, Old Saxon, Old Norse and Old Germanic.


Quote: "What I can't figure out is how a series of Neanderthal grunts can evolve into a cohesive language.
Why are there redundant consonants like v and w?"


Listen to a baby experiement with its voice, it will start with vowels, because they're easy sounds, "ahhh, ooohhh, eeee" etc. but as it develops it'll start making sound such as, "gaa, baa, daa" as it discovers parts of the voicebox that can make consonants. I imagine as humans began to use vocal sounds to communicate it would have developed in stages and of course as apes using language to communicate, that part of our brain grew bigger, so we could mentally deal with more complex concepts.

You sir have the moral ambivalence of a mutated shrimp!
Zotoaster
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Posted: 8th Sep 2008 03:04
Quote: ""Do you know what old bean? I think I have jolly well learned how to talk. How very strange""


Set as my MSN name

Grandma
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Posted: 8th Sep 2008 14:43
Ah, and here we stumbled upon Seppuku's favourite subject.

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 8th Sep 2008 15:16 Edited at: 8th Sep 2008 15:19
You guessed? Yes, I love language and writing, hence I'm studying this sort of thing at University. Though language change and the develop of English weren't any of the projects I chose to do - otherwise I might have attempted a Raven length post (or to break the record, longer).

You sir have the moral ambivalence of a mutated shrimp!
mamaji4
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Posted: 8th Sep 2008 16:45 Edited at: 8th Sep 2008 17:14
Quote: "What does seem redundant are your pseudo thought provoking threads mamaji4"


At least the words "thought provoking" form part of your opinion.
I've seen worse threads here.
"Gee. I've got a goldfish. Do you think I should call it Tom or Jerry. And should I feed it one grain or two, of fish food. Do you think 3 grains would be overfeeding?"
That's thought provoking for sure. And geeky to boot.



Shakespeare has a lot of ye, thou, thee. And all of it finally became a "you". An elimination of respect. "You" considers young and old alike, the amateur and the professional are brought down to the same common denominator. When all these were eliminated and replaced by "you" who was responsible. Was there an 'Engllish Standards Committee' that decided upon it?
That's the sort of question I tried to resolve when I started this thread. But all I seem to be getting is antagonistic and sour replies. Instead why don't people attempt to add to the discussion like Sepukku did. Considering that we work with the semantics and syntax of languages as Computer Scientists and Engineers, I'm sure that a proper discussion would definitely be more than "pseudo thought provoking" After all, natural language recognition does appear to be the next big thing.

Take a look at what the possiblities are when you actually try to eliminate the redundancy of existing natural languages. You reduce them to a simpler semantic structure, not just a simpler syntax.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pidgin
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 8th Sep 2008 17:13 Edited at: 8th Sep 2008 17:19
Thee, thou, art come from the older Germanic languages as well, observe old Norse:

Þú [thu/you] ert konungur (or something like that, just off of the top of my head)

Or

Þat var Þik [thik/you] (though I'm not sure if that's perfect Norse)

There's also: þau

They'd have different pronouns for different uses, but as you noticed our language is a bit strange in the way it only has 1 form for you. I don't know the answer to where the change happened and why, but I probably could make an educated guess.

English did become standardised around the time Caxton invented his printing press and later once the dictionary was created. (but not at the click of a finger, it took time and of course, language is still changing...just say "sup me breadbin" to a chav and you'll see how language doesn't keep to the standard and manages to make its own changes) So there was a standard form of English being developed and words began to change to the English we know today. Of course standard English didn't eliminate all kinds of English, because we still have good old regional dialects. But some people say that English is also a Creole, or at least that's what one of my lecturers decided to describe it as - and if you think about it: the Normans had to communicate with the Old English, and no doubt different Pidgin languages would have been made to communicate and we're left with a creole. So whilst Shakespeare's dialect might have kept the 'thous' and 'thees', it may well be possible that it wasn't true for all regions across the UK...but I don't know - this is a grey area for me, hence 'an educated guess'. Melvyn Bragg's book should talk about it - it covers the area of the standardisation of English better than I probably could.

And mamaji, I hope you're not asking these questions to cheat on an essay are you?

You sir have the moral ambivalence of a mutated shrimp!
mamaji4
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Posted: 8th Sep 2008 17:18 Edited at: 8th Sep 2008 17:19
Quote: "And mamaji, I hope you're not asking these questions to cheat on an essay are you?"


Hell no.
Natural Language recognition is a toughie and any enlightenment through discussion, or even educated guesses can go a long way in answering some things.
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 8th Sep 2008 17:27
Haha.

I never thought myself to be enlightening - but I'll try to answer any questions I can, however all my books are packed for going up to the house I'm renting for University this weekend - so you'd be relying on my memory and educated guesses until we get an internet connection set-up over there.

You sir have the moral ambivalence of a mutated shrimp!
mamaji4
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Posted: 8th Sep 2008 21:04
Quote: "Its not as if in one day, one of them turned round:

"Do you know what old bean? I think I have jolly well learned how to talk. How very strange""


That's it!! Sometimes you get the answers in the strangest ways.

Neanderthal man was getting nowhere with his promiscuous ways and lust for meat. Imagine waking up in the morning wondering what to do next. I mean, how many lewd paintings can you paint on the cave wall. And clobbering the neighbour's wife and dragging her in by the hair was getting downright boring.
Suddenly, among the tribe appeared a man out of nowhere. He gathered up the awed bunch of people and taught some of them Indo and the other group some Latin till he had sort of covered the whole gamut of languages.
These people then went out and multiplied.
That's the only expalanation. Somebody with great intellect taught us all to speak.
BatVink
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Posted: 8th Sep 2008 22:10
ey up, wis ta ba'an?

Bit of a barney goin' on 'ere. Someone's gonna end up gerrin' a clout round ear 'ole.

Si' thee.

Discuss.

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 8th Sep 2008 22:19
Quote: "
Bit of a barney goin' on 'ere. Someone's gonna end up gerrin' a clout round ear 'ole."


Sounds cockney...Barney. Barney Rubble, trouble, cockney Rhyme and slang that one.

Well that bit's easy to explain, one of the subsitute teachers at our school used to love doing lessons on cockney rhyme and slang instead of actually giving us the work set out for us. They invented their own ways of speaking whilst selling stuff on the market so they could only understand each other - I suppose it made life easier to scam people.


The rest - I'll look at later, I'm just stopping by for a quick read of messages on the forum.

You sir have the moral ambivalence of a mutated shrimp!
Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 8th Sep 2008 22:26
Quote: "I've seen worse threads here. "

Very true. I was too critical, sorry.


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Mahoney
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Posted: 8th Sep 2008 22:28
Quote: "Shakespeare has a lot of ye, thou, thee. And all of it finally became a "you". An elimination of respect. "You" considers young and old alike, the amateur and the professional are brought down to the same common denominator. When all these were eliminated and replaced by "you" who was responsible. Was there an 'Engllish Standards Committee' that decided upon it?"


I wish we hadn't done away with the personal pronouns. We should have kept them, like Spanish and French(?).

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mamaji4
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Posted: 8th Sep 2008 23:07
I think maybe we started out with the grunts of exclamation.
'Ow' or 'Ouch' would have been natural for a hard hit on the noggin.
'Aaaah' and 'Arrrgh' although similar sounding would express pleasure and pain
That's when the confusion arose.
Husband goes 'Aaarrh'. Wife can't figure out whether he's happy that he just dragged in the neighbour's wife, or peeved that she got dragged off last night by the neighbour.
She frowns and the husband looks at the furrows on her brows and the shape of the question mark is born.
So we need some disambiguation in the limited vocabulary of grunts.
So we use BNF to form the vocabulary of the language. But its difficult to reduce the NFA to a DFA for 'Aaaah' and 'Arrrgh'

Of course I'm rambling now. But maybe someone can take it from here.
bitJericho
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Posted: 9th Sep 2008 01:07
Quote: "ey up, wis ta ba'an?

Bit of a barney goin' on 'ere. Someone's gonna end up gerrin' a clout round ear 'ole.

Si' thee.

Discuss."


Discuss? Discuss what:S I didn't understand half of what you wrote :S


It's not just for BYOND you know!
BatVink
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Posted: 9th Sep 2008 01:23
Quote: "Well that bit's easy to explain"


...or it would be if you had the right dialect

It's Tyke.

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 9th Sep 2008 01:29
Probably a bit of guess work in places but, "Ey up", or "hey up" or "hello". What's the banging[? 'banging, reference to a fight?] There's a bit of trouble going on here. So somebody is going to end up get hurt. (or, Bit or trouble going on here. Someone is going to end up getting a cloud around the earhole)


"Si'thee", not a clue.

But I guess he wants us to discuss regional dialects right? Cockney rhyme and slang I talked about in my last post - based on the ramblings of an old school teacher - whose idea of covering a German lesson was to teach us cockney rhyme and slang and give a bit of history about it.

The English language wasn't really standardised, so localised regions all started speaking an English that they felt comfortable with and could communicate within their own communities with - and of course different words and meanings may appear in different parts of the country - some words might have borrowed from languages that once existed in Britain. But some of these ways of speaking that tend not to pronunciate can be faster ways of speaking and it works if people can understand you. Me being brought up outside Cambridge however meant I could barely understand one of my flatmates last year who was from Doncaster and had quite a strong Doncaster accent, which made his pronunciation difficult for to grasp, so I had to say 'sorry' to get him to repeat or think for a moment.

This was the sort of thing there were going to try an eliminate when moving Britons over to America and they did, I think they were complemented on how well they spoke standard English...so much so the pronunciated when it was normal not to (except 'herb' for some reason Americans drop the 'h' when we don't) and of course some tried removed letters deemed 'unecessary' in words, for example: colour (color) and you probably could say it was the next stage in the standardisation of English...but where did it all go? Tut, you yanks had a prime opportunity to 'perfect' the English language.

The Australians however, or as I like to call them, our convicts (usually ends up winding up an Australian person whenever I say that, which I suppose is the point) seem to go some of our more 'cockney' way of speaking.

You sir have the moral ambivalence of a mutated shrimp!
JoelJ
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Posted: 9th Sep 2008 01:31
Quote: "Why are there redundant consonants like v and w?"

more like "Q"... such a worthless letter. WORTHLESS. It can't even stand alone. It's such a ... worthless letter.


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BatVink
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Posted: 9th Sep 2008 10:08
I'm amazed at how many different words there are for teacake (barm cake, bap, bun, roll etc).

mamaji4
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Posted: 9th Sep 2008 13:38 Edited at: 9th Sep 2008 14:01
Quote: "more like "Q"... such a worthless letter. WORTHLESS. It can't even stand alone. It's such a ... worthless letter.
"


Yeah, I agree. A "cu" could easily substitute for a Q. Imagine. Can't stand on its ovn legs and still included in the language.
If I was John Carmack my next title vould be "Cuake"
That should get "cu" absorbed sufficiently fast into English, with all the millions of kids playing "Cuake II" and "Cuake III"
*no sarcasm*

And speaking of deficiencies of expression in a language, I desperately need an emoticon for sarcasm, because a lot of my posts are mistaken for being sarcastic, vhereas actually they are not.

And I can't figure out vhy a "w" is called a double-u and not a double-v


Quote: "Its not as if in one day, one of them turned round:

"Do you know what old bean? I think I have jolly well learned how to talk. How very strange"
"

Yeah after 24 sleepless hours, I'm sure it vas an alien that taught us all to speak. They sav a bunch of apes vho veren't interested in anything except honk-a-tonking and they decided, ve needed to do something more useful vith our lives. And they vanted us to speak in a dialect that they could understand, so ve vouldn't be able to keep any secrets from them.
Of course they underestimated us and there are several English dialects today that no alien could understand.
Maybe Voody Allen could make a parody out of this. I'd lowe to see that.
Thraxas
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Posted: 9th Sep 2008 13:53
Quote: "And I can't figure out vhy a "w" is called a double-u and not a double-v"


It's the font you're using *








* This post was a joke!
mamaji4
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Posted: 9th Sep 2008 13:58
Quote: "It's the font you're using"

Jokes are the order of the day. We geeks lead such unsocial lives we need a joke or two to keep going.
Grandma
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Posted: 9th Sep 2008 14:01
Quote: "And I can't figure out vhy a "w" is called a double-u and not a double-v"

And I thought I was the only one confused about that. A few days ago, I was pondering about that while writing nonsense on youtube. Educating 40+ year-olds on their native language, which is oh'so fun.

But why does "C" sometimes have an "S" and sometimes a "K" sound? Like in "Conrad" and "Cypher".

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mamaji4
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Posted: 9th Sep 2008 14:10 Edited at: 9th Sep 2008 14:20
Quote: "But why does "C" sometimes have an "S" and sometimes a "K" sound? Like in "Conrad" and "Cypher".
"

Yeah. C is neither an S or a K and deserves to be kikked out.
Also Q needs to be kikked out and replased vith "Ku"
Nov you can happily see that Konrad and Sypher are just fine looking.
Hey, ve just redused the 26 letters to 23. Kindergarten kids vill be overjoyed. Three less letters to learn. And ve thought this vas all in vain.



If at first you don't succeed, relax. You're like the rest of us.

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 9th Sep 2008 20:42
W looking like a double V might be down to how language evolved - there was a time when 'v' had the same sound as 'u' does today, I hypothesise that it may have something to do with it. The best example I can drag up is 2 identical lines from 2 versions of the Poetic Edda in Old Norse (extracted from the poem 'Bauldrs Draumar'(Baldur's dreams):
Quote: "Senn vorv æsir "

Quote: "Senn váru æsir "


So I'm going to say the v's used to have a soft sound like g's and j's have in some Germanic languages and we probably discovered or created a way of representing a soft sounding 'v', hence 'u' and 'w'. But again, educated guesses and nothing concrete.



Also, earlier some one mentioned neanderthals (or instead our early ancestors, who weren't neanderthals) and early language development. I just picked up a new book today called 'The Talking Ape' by Robbins Burling, probably a good source for information, as it says on the front cover "How language evolved". From the blurb it seem quite interesting - basically discusses the 'most convincing' account on how language evolved and the writer (an anthropologist and linguist from the University of Michigan) taken us back to our ape-like forbears. So it might be worth a read (hence I bought it).

Quote: "Yeah. C is neither an S or a K and deserves to be kikked out.
Also Q needs to be kikked out and replased vith "Ku"
Nov you can happily see that Konrad and Sypher are just fine looking.
Hey, ve just redused the 26 letters to 23. Kindergarten kids vill be overjoyed. Three less letters to learn. And ve thought this vas all in vain."


I believe the earlier linguists in America tried 'improving' standard English by removing letters from words that didn't need to be there (letters that were left over from its evolution) and I think they wanted to 'fix' the whole language, hence we in the UK write 'Colour', and the Americans write 'Color', as an example or 'foetus' and 'fetus', 'Encyclopaedia' and 'Encyclopedia' and so on. But removing actual letters would be difficult to implement, actually it'd be easier to leave the language alone - no point confusing the adults to dumb it down for the children. We write fine most of the time, don't we? (Ve rite fine most ov þe time, don't ue?)

What I'm interested in is finding out why we went from the 2 letters: þ and ð to combining 't' and 'h' to make 'th' (or why it makes a soft sound, 't' is quite a hard consonant) We used those 2 letters in Old English and I suppose it was the foolishness of the Normans that made us lose those 2 gems, though saying that, I wonder why Norwegian and Swedish no longer have such letters whilst Icelandic and Danish do. (Those 4 are the main modern languages that evolved from Norse)

You sir have the moral ambivalence of a mutated shrimp!
mamaji4
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Posted: 9th Sep 2008 21:22
Quote: "I just picked up a new book today called 'The Talking Ape' by Robbins Burling"


Thanks for the link. That should be revealing. I'd like take a look at that book.

Meanwhile on with my own meanderings.
I think I got a handle on the vowel precedence.
There's this Neanderthal babe and she's lounging around eating some berries when suddenly the male of the species appears.
"Aaaeeeeeiiiii!" she exclaims as the guy thunks her on the head.
"Ouch!" she moans, and falls into a deep slumber "ZZZZZZZ...", before being dragged off by her hair.
(The more I think about it the more I'd like to be a Neanderthal man. No roses. No sweet nothings. Just bang and then bang.)
Anyway, to get back to more pressing matters,
we can clearly see from the three grunts above that
A,E,I,O,U followed lastly by the Z would be the natural ordering of the alphabets.
Also "Ouch" would imply that C precedes H
The ordering of the rest of the alphabets is open to question.
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 9th Sep 2008 22:21 Edited at: 9th Sep 2008 22:24
I don't think it has anything to do with the ordering on the alphabet. The alphabet was invented in the middle east - I can't remember the exact civilisation, I know the Eqyptians actually had an alphabet (as opposed to heiroglyphs - they were impressive on buildings, but not convenient for day-to-day scholars..) and is probably the earliest. But for the order of sounds, I would no know the reasons, but I'd say it's unlikely that it were a couple of Nearnderthals in a violent moment (as it weren't the neanderthals that invented the alphabet, or writing - though they were not as dumb as their stereotype...they managed amazing things like turning a cave into a percussion instrument)

On my way looking for images to represent the evolution of the alphabet I found something that contradicted what I was taught, it demonstrated the letter 'A' evolving from the Eqyptian alphabet and 'Eagle', interesting as I was taught it derived from 'Alef', it was a pictograph for 'Bull', however, another diagram supports what I said - I'll probably confront my lecturer about it. But I'll post up a couple of tables:







Letters like 'G' are derivatives of 'C', if you look where 'C' and 'Gamma' stand side by side in the first diagram and 'Gamma' also sits with 'G' in both tables. though again, educated guess and one that is seemingly supported by the 2 tables, but I've not looked into this in great depth. (Though I looked a lot at the development of cuneiform, however that predates the alphabet, though as you can see in the second table cuneiform developed an alphabet)

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Posted: 9th Sep 2008 23:07 Edited at: 9th Sep 2008 23:09
Sepukku,

I had my fun. You're the pro. I guess its your thread from here on.
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 9th Sep 2008 23:17
I wouldn't call myself a pro - a lot of my judgments are 'educated guesses' because I don't know everything about Language I'm afraid - I'd probably have more if my course was a course in 'Language', in my course 'Language and its development' is just an ice-breaker to the important stuff, 'writing' and of course it's all really interesting stuff, hence I keep buying bloody books on it. (Though I have enough to read as it is)


It's still your thread though mate - apologies if it seems I'm taking over a bit, but it's still your thread, you're providing the discussion material and well questions always need answers.

Perhaps think of a world where writing does not exist - this was something one of our lecturers asked us to do in the first weeks of the course.

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mamaji4
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Posted: 9th Sep 2008 23:24
Quote: " it's all really interesting stuff, hence I keep buying bloody books on it. (Though I have enough to read as it is)
"


Yeah. I have the same obsession with CS and CE books. My library can give the National Library a complex.
I just don't know if I'll ever get through all of them in one lifetime.
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 10th Sep 2008 02:52
My library isn't quite that big yet, I usually end up buying a book or two or more when I visit Cambridge or when I need one. I mean Borders, the massive bookshop there tempts you with their cheaply made coffee and the UK's constant raining to make you go in and look at something.

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Benjamin
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Posted: 10th Sep 2008 02:53
That evolution of the alphabet image is cool.

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 10th Sep 2008 03:19 Edited at: 10th Sep 2008 03:21
Yeah - I didn't think I'd find one that'd show so much of it - most of them start from the Phoenicians and only include languages most people are familiar with such as Roman/Latin, Greek (and only 1 or 2 forms of Greek), English, Gothic and Hebrew, but the power of google can sometimes surprise you.

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JoelJ
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Posted: 10th Sep 2008 23:01
Quote: "A "cu" could easily substitute for a Q"

more like... "KW" -> "Kwake"


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mamaji4
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Posted: 11th Sep 2008 15:18 Edited at: 11th Sep 2008 16:05
Quote: "more like... "KW" -> "Kwake""


Yeah. A KW is more like the Q sound. Letters like U,v,w in the chart are bundled together while Q has such a solitary esteemed status.
Even the C,K redundancy is clearly visible although on second thought you do need a separate C and K to derive the CH and KH sounds.
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Posted: 11th Sep 2008 22:07 Edited at: 11th Sep 2008 22:12
Quote: "And I can't figure out vhy a "w" is called a double-u and not a double-v"


I think I can answer this. The Old English rendering of the name "Oswald" is "Osuuold". Go ahead, say it out loud. You get a kind of "Os-ooh-old" sound, right? And at some point, people thought that, since the two "u"s together (or "double-u") made a sound which was different from the single "u", they stuck them together and made a new letter.

The fact that this turned into the "w" vv shape is probably, as Seppuku said, due to the fact that the Latin symbol "v" could also be used as a "u".

http://eternallycool.net/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/trajan-inscription-5.jpg

The first line of that inscription reads "Senatus populus que romanus" - notice how the "u"s are written as "v"s.

Also, I missed the earlier posts about "thee" and "thou" and "you". I think either "thee" or "thou" became "you", rather than being replaced by it - and I agree that it's a shame we lost one of our pronouns. They were certainly around in Shakespeare's time, but by the Romantic period (about 1800) they're gone, or at least they're very archaic: I wonder what happened in the intervening 200 years? The historical events which spring to mind are the English civil war and the colonising of the Americas - both of which could have influenced the language. I also think it's a great shame we no longer use "one", as in "one should never lock oneself in an oven" - because we now have to use "you" instead which, as we know, is already fulfilling both the "thee" and "thou" functions already, and is thus a little stretched.

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