The idea that graphical quality doesnt count as much

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General Reed

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Posted: 15th Oct 2008 03:32

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Well ive heard time an time again, that graphical quality does not count for much. But in reality, Unless its the art style, noone is gona purchase a game which has super gameplay, but everything is displayed in white/grey polys.

So why do people constantly say this?

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Aaron Miller

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Posted: 15th Oct 2008 03:34

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I've never heard this.... Programming wise - focus more on gameplay than pretty art - you aren't a good programmer unless you can actually program something useful.

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General Reed

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Posted: 15th Oct 2008 03:37

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Quote: "I've never heard this"

Well on game forums etc, people tend to think gameplay is more important, when in a way it is, but i would never play a game that looked like crap, even if the gameplay was super awesome. Let alone buy one.

Quote: "Programming wise - focus more on gameplay than pretty art - you aren't a good programmer unless you can actually program something useful."

I agree, but with so many media archives around, its not really that hard to create a decient looking game.

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Mahoney

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Posted: 15th Oct 2008 03:40

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Saying "gameplay is more important" isn't saying "it's so important you could play a monochrome game and it be fun!"

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General Reed

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Posted: 15th Oct 2008 03:42

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Quote: "Saying "gameplay is more important" isn't saying "it's so important you could play a monochrome game and it be fun!""

Good point.

Hmm maybe its just my opinion, but i concider crysis to be a marvel for games. Largely because of its photorealism, and insane physics capabilities. I guess i prefer realism.

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Aaron Miller

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Posted: 15th Oct 2008 03:43

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At a part in KH2 it was entirely GREY-SCALE. Monochrome is just black and white. But the main point is the gameplay was AWSOME.

Besides, I WOULD. You ever buy those little $12 games that look like digital clocks that can be played hand held? I bought three once, of mario. The gameplay was awsome and I played it more than my PS2.

People buy FPS and RPG games because they look good. Personally, looking good is something that, to me, doesn't involve the quality of the models, just the style. To this day I still play Croc and Super Mario 64 - and they're graphics suck in terms of today's. BUT, the gameplay is still nice, and the style is consistent.

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Mahoney

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Posted: 15th Oct 2008 03:46

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Quote: "People buy FPS and RPG games because they look good."

FPS? Yeah. RPG, though? Well, I guess n00b RPG gamers. But not old-school RPGers.

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General Reed

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Posted: 15th Oct 2008 03:49

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Quote: "RPG, though?"

Actualy i have to say i thought Oblivion, was one of the best games i ever played, and the graphics on that are awesome. With a few mods, the graphics can look even better. But i found KH2 to be boring, mainly due to its dull look, and the boring turn based combat.
.... and ive played a lot of games.

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RedneckRambo

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Posted: 15th Oct 2008 03:50

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How come when I said graphics are one of the most important things to me, people yelled at me?

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ionstream

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Posted: 15th Oct 2008 03:50

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Graphics come last. Adding shadows/shaders/HDR/etc is a very small part of the game, and it definitely is at the end of the priority list.

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Mahoney

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Posted: 15th Oct 2008 03:50

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Quote: "But i found KH2 to be boring, mainly due to its dull look, and the boring turn based combat."

Wait: do you mean Kingdom Hearts 2?

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General Reed

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Posted: 15th Oct 2008 03:54

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Quote: "How come when I said graphics are one of the most important things to me, people yelled at me?"

Idk, I see it as
Graphics - 50%
Gameplay - 50%

I prefer realism. Im one who dosent like magic etc, because to me the idea of it is ludicrous. I also find it totaly ruins some games. Where the player has swords etc, then you get killed by a mage who barley has to make an effort. Just aim and fire.

Quote: "Graphics come last. Adding shadows/shaders/HDR/etc is a very small part of the game, and it definitely is at the end of the priority list."

You are entitiled to your opinion, but personaly i dont think that is true. I cant stand to play a game that looks unrealistic, dull. I just get bored too quickly.

Quote: "Wait: do you mean Kingdom Hearts 2?"

Oops sorry, i got confused with KOTOR2.

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AndrewT

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Posted: 15th Oct 2008 03:58 Edited at: 15th Oct 2008 04:03

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I'm not gonna line, graphics do matter to me. But I don't care about how realistic they are, or how detailed they are, or about the resolution of the textures or number of polygons in a particular model, the only thing I'm concerned about is that they all pertain to some style. By that I mean that the look of the graphics is consistent throughout the entire game. I don't care if the graphics are realistic, cartoony, totally black & white, or all bright neon colors; if the game has a particular style to its graphics then I think it's visually appealing. I could not care less about any shaders at all. I can play games for the N64 like Donkey Kong 64 or Blast Corps and not get bothered by the graphics one bit.

I especially think that people here care too much about graphics for their games, and too little about gameplay. So, when I'm playing games...

Graphics (overall style and appeal, not realism): 30%.
Gameplay: 70%.

But when I'm making a game:

Graphics: 0%.
Gameplay: 100%. (and somehow it still ends up sucking.

)

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dark coder

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Posted: 15th Oct 2008 04:19

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I've said this in another thread but I believe a good game requires good graphics. This doesn't mean good graphics make a good game, just that no amount of gameplay will save a bad looking game. There are only 2 real exceptions to this: old games where the hardware wasn't as advanced and what I see was considered good graphics for the time, or the game isn't finished and is a WIP.

If you don't consider graphics important as a game developer then you must be severely deluding yourselves, or your player base must be frequent users of LSD. The first thing anyone sees when they find out about a game is the graphics, be it from a video or screenshots. To see actual gameplay it will take a lot of screenshots and/or some video, if it looks really bad for the style then that's going to be really hard to let go for many casual players, I'm sure some people will be able to look past it but this isn't going to be the average person. If you can't produce graphics up to par with your art style then you've chosen the wrong style; Go for something simpler, or one that requires less time to produce, some great looking games don't even need to use many/any textures and rely on flat shading. However many of these styles highly benefit from clever shader use so don't ignore it.

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Kevin Picone

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Posted: 15th Oct 2008 04:34

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Visuals are the sex appeal of games and a big initial draw card, there's nothing new about it. But visuals alone won't keep people playing.

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JoelJ

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Posted: 15th Oct 2008 05:40

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Quote: "Largely because of its photorealism, and insane physics capabilities"

that's not just the graphics though. And trust me, if the game itself wasn't fun, the graphics wouldn't make up for it.

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Jeku

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Posted: 15th Oct 2008 06:44

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Quote: "I agree, but with so many media archives around, its not really that hard to create a decient looking game."

Oh really--- where are these media archives located? If everyone was using the same archives, many games would look very similar wouldn't you say?

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General Reed

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Posted: 15th Oct 2008 07:25

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Quote: "that's not just the graphics though. And trust me, if the game itself wasn't fun, the graphics wouldn't make up for it."

Yes an i agree, but you cant deny that graphics do play a huge part in how enjoyable a game is.

Quote: "Oh really--- where are these media archives located? If everyone was using the same archives, many games would look very similar wouldn't you say?"

There are countless texture libarys, 3d model libarys, sites. And as for shaders, here we have premade ones such as those in the shader packs, and you can find pleanty online.

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Jeku

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Posted: 15th Oct 2008 08:10

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Quote: "its not really that hard to create a decient looking game."

Oh well, I still think that's the most underrated statement of October from the forums. Congrats!

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General Reed

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Posted: 15th Oct 2008 08:14

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Quote: "Oh well, I still think that's the most underrated statement of October from the forums. Congrats!"

It takes me about 10% of development time on a game/engine, to create a solid framework, with hdr etc etc. Maybe your unable to, Doesnt mean u have to be so rude.

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JoelJ

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Posted: 15th Oct 2008 08:15

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Quote: "Yes an i agree, but you cant deny that graphics do play a huge part in how enjoyable a game is.
"

I can deny that graphics do play a huge part in how enjoyable a game is. And I do deny it. Warcraft II? Loads better than Warcraft III. What makes it better? The gameplay is better, at least in my opinion. I enjoy WarII because I enjoy the GAMEPLAY more. Mario64 is better than Mario Sunshine, wholly on gameplay. I could give several examples.
A more general example, I enjoy the Wii more than the PS3/Xbox360 because the games are more enjoyable. Are the graphics better? Generally speaking, sure aren't. But I still like it more.

As far as graphics go (and I've said this to many people in the past), I believe that they should be CONSISTENT. If one person looks like a cartoon, not only should the rest of the people, but all the surroundings. I don't want a Mario Galaxies Mario jumping around with Mario Galaxies baddies in a Mario 64 world. It just doesn't float my boat. And of course that's an extreme example. It bugs me when I see a really real looking person in a game with poor hair. And the likes.

Anyway, that's my opinion on graphics. Sure, graphics can add to the enjoyment of a game, but I wouldn't say that they play a huge part in how enjoyable a game is.

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General Reed

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Posted: 15th Oct 2008 08:20

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Quote: "I can deny that graphics do play a huge part in how enjoyable a game is. And I do deny it. Warcraft II? Loads better than Warcraft III. What makes it better? The gameplay is better, at least in my opinion. I enjoy WarII because I enjoy the GAMEPLAY more. Mario64 is better than Mario Sunshine, wholly on gameplay. I could give several examples.
A more general example, I enjoy the Wii more than the PS3/Xbox360 because the games are more enjoyable. Are the graphics better? Generally speaking, sure aren't. But I still like it more.

As far as graphics go (and I've said this to many people in the past), I believe that they should be CONSISTENT. If one person looks like a cartoon, not only should the rest of the people, but all the surroundings. I don't want a Mario Galaxies Mario jumping around with Mario Galaxies baddies in a Mario 64 world. It just doesn't float my boat. And of course that's an extreme example. It bugs me when I see a really real looking person in a game with poor hair. And the likes.

Anyway, that's my opinion on graphics. Sure, graphics can add to the enjoyment of a game, but I wouldn't say that they play a huge part in how enjoyable a game is."

Hmm, what yore doing there is a bit like comparing the graphics of a 1990's pong game to crysis. Of course its going to be worse.

However, what if half life 3 looked like half life 1? I wouldnt buy it.

Now that cryteck have set the bar for graphics, That is what everyone will expect from a pc game.

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Bizar Guy

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Posted: 15th Oct 2008 09:22

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Quote: "Now that cryteck have set the bar for graphics, That is what everyone will expect from a pc game."

I hope not. As impressive as those graphics were, I never liked the style of crisis. I much prefer the style in hl2, mount and blade, NMH, shadow of the Colossus, and so on. Of course visuals are important. If there is no visual draw to the game, you wouldn't want to look at it... Also, when you're actually playing the game, how it looks in motion becomes much more important than screen shots. I think a lot of people have missed this, but NO ONE on these forums has said graphics are not important. We all know they are. However, I'd take a game like Mount and Blade over Oblivion any day, because I have a lot more fun playing it, feel more immersed, and overall prefer the gameplay. On some levels I also prefer the graphics. For instance, oblivion, even looking good, is pretty much all forest, and extremely similar looking towns. Well, I have Oblivion, and have trouble getting into some of the gameplay, and I get bored looking at similar stuff all the time. That would be both a graphics and a gameplay issue, though more gameplay than graphics, as the graphics issues are more on reflection. Take mount and blade then though, where there are hundred's of cities and towns, and each is a very different and individual place. I mean, I can pick out a town right away by the buildings, layout, architecture, and environment. Then the gameplay is addictive, and is made for ease of use while feeling very realistic. I honestly feel way more as part of the world in mount and blade than I do in oblivion.

Take another game though, No More Heroes. Certainly not an amazing looking game, though the art style is great. I could much better deal with reduced graphics (more so) in such a game than reduced gameplay. And that is what this is all about. Sure, graphics are important, but in the end I would rather reduce the quality of graphics in favor of better gameplay than reduce gameplay for better graphics. And stop comparing extremes; of course it'd be hard to sell a game about colored cubes. We know. No duh we expect HL3 to look better than HL1.

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Little Bill

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Posted: 15th Oct 2008 09:54

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I've seen this argument a 1000 times. To make a good game that SELLS both need to be well balanced. I think in this thread it's a case of 'Artists Vs. Programmers'. You need to see it through both perspectives. The programmers think that gameplay is better as they create it. You may not think that though. It's a mental thing. Because you create it you think that it's going to be better than something else. Same with the artists.

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ionstream

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Posted: 15th Oct 2008 09:57

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Quote: "Now that cryteck have set the bar for graphics, That is what everyone will expect from a pc game."

"Graphics" here meaning photorealism, something that games like Mario probably wouldn't want.

Quote: "It takes me about 10% of development time on a game/engine, to create a solid framework, with hdr etc etc."

HDR has nothing to do with a "solid framework." A good framework handles object management, game services (graphics being one of them), states, logic, etc.

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General Reed

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Posted: 15th Oct 2008 10:05 Edited at: 15th Oct 2008 10:08

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Quote: "I've seen this argument a 1000 times. To make a good game that SELLS both need to be well balanced. I think in this thread it's a case of 'Artists Vs. Programmers'. You need to see it through both perspectives. The programmers think that gameplay is better as they create it. You may not think that though. It's a mental thing. Because you create it you think that it's going to be better than something else. Same with the artists."

I agree. As i said 50% graphics, 50% gameplay.
But since when did artists code new shader techniques etc?

Quote: "HDR has nothing to do with a "solid framework." A good framework handles object management, game services (graphics being one of them), states, logic, etc."

Sorry i should have said "Graphics Framework". And object management etc, is included in the frameworks which i create for my projects.

Why do people have this idea, that artists are what make a good graphics game. If the shaders, graphical techniques, scene management dosent work properly, then no amount of polygons or textures will make it look better.

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Van B

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Posted: 15th Oct 2008 10:05

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It depends on the type of game, how fast paced it is, how much action there is on screen at any one time.

Oblivion like all modern RPG's looks great, because it needs to. The #1 goal in an RPG is to immerse the player in the environment, there is simply no other way for a first person RPG to look.

But, if all your doing is shooting things, then you don't even have time to notice the graphics that much. Look at Geometry Wars, graphics are all just vector shapes with a bit of glow to them. Yet that graphical style works - the game plays like a psychotic fireworks display, you don't have time to watch 1 enemy blow up, you just go with the flow, and get sucked into the action with only a rough idea of what is going on.

In our cases we need to be sensible about what sort of look to go for, if you can only draw lines and circles, then go draw some lines and circles and make a game out of them. Too many people disregard the look of their game in favor of everything they want it to do, really the looks should be one of the first things you decide on. People who want complex media need to pay for it in some way, either by putting in the work to learn the skills, paying someone else to do it, or giving up having sole property of their game.

Personally I think that coders should also work on their media skills, once you can code to a degree and also produce usable media, the world is your lobster. I don't see why any coder would prefer not to at least know the basics, it's vital with DBPro I'm sure, because a lot of what you do is purely affecting the visuals in your game.

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Jeku

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Posted: 15th Oct 2008 17:49

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Quote: "But since when did artists code new shader techniques etc?"

Actually in many game companies an artist will use a tool to do the shaders, or a tech artist will design and code them.

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Cliff Mellangard 3DEGS

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Posted: 15th Oct 2008 18:07

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I belive the big point that have bin mentioned by many.
Is that to many developers think to much of shine and not gameplay.
The review of far cry 2 for 360 and ps3 got really bad reviews because it have an stupid ai and not because it looks awesome.
I cant tell that much of my own experience of far cry 2,as i only looked at videos of it and they look really great.

Easy for you to say van b

you are an talented coder and artist

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JoelJ

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Posted: 15th Oct 2008 18:11 Edited at: 15th Oct 2008 18:15

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Quote: ", I have Oblivion, and have trouble getting into some of the gameplay, and I get bored looking at similar stuff all the time. That would be both a graphics and a gameplay issue"

sounds like a design problem. The graphics look real whether or not they're redundant. That's the point people are trying to make when they say graphics aren't everything. It doesn't matter how freaking awesome all your models are or how powerful your graphics engine is, if the game itself it poop.

Quote: "Yet that graphical style works"

yeah, that's what I was trying to say in my last post. It just took me a lot more words than you.

Styles have to work and all fit together.

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Little Bill

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Posted: 15th Oct 2008 18:16

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I could turn around what you just said and say that no good how good your gameplay is, with poop models and graphics engine then not many people will want to play it these days.

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JoelJ

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Posted: 15th Oct 2008 18:21

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I never said that you don't want to make your game look good.

Again, if you mixed SNES quality graphics with atari quality graphics, it's going to look like poop. I'm saying that amazing graphics isn't everything. It more about CONSISTENCY in graphics, and quality of gameplay.

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David R

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Posted: 15th Oct 2008 18:26

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Quote: "
So why do people constantly say this?
"

You can't play graphics

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Little Bill

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Posted: 15th Oct 2008 18:27

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Quote: "I never said that you don't want to make your game look good."

Where did I say anything about that?

Again, I did not say graphics are everything. But neither is the gameplay. I like to think of it like this: The gameplay is the pasta, and the graphics are a nice pasta bake topped in cheese and crisps, baked to... sorry. I'm fantasizing about.

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wind27382

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Posted: 15th Oct 2008 18:27

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it's 33 graphics
33 programming
and 33 concept
can't have a good game with out all 3 in harmony

wind

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wind27382

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Posted: 15th Oct 2008 18:29

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pong

wind

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PAGAN_old

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Posted: 15th Oct 2008 18:39

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i agree on the fact that if the game has awesome gameplay but rendered in gray cubes, wouldnt be as fun.

WHat i hate is when people take a decent looking game (from the last generation of the PS2 and stuff) and say its graphics look like crap. Then why do you play World of warcraft then you hypocrite sack of nosehair! play crysis instead.

For me, there is a certain charm to low poly 3d graphics like Jedi Knight Dark Forces 2, that was a great game.

I like HL2 graphics because they are very good looking and not too fncy.

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Zombie 20

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Posted: 15th Oct 2008 18:54

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Quote: "but i would never play a game that looked like crap, even if the gameplay was super awesome. Let alone buy one."

Wow you're shallow, shame shame shame, you have missed so much. What era did you grow up in?

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Cliff Mellangard 3DEGS

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Posted: 15th Oct 2008 19:14

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I love to play some old games from time to time

i have the original doom with the 2 data disks in its windows 95 version

But iam a retro gamer that likes a good looking and modern games too.

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Accoun

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Posted: 16th Oct 2008 21:35

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Quote: "I love to play some old games from time to time
i have the original doom with the 2 data disks in its windows 95 version
But iam a retro gamer that likes a good looking and modern games too"

Well, I'm not a retro games fan, wut about a year ago I've finished Doom again, and like 5 months I've finished first Quake.
So graphics aren't IMO as important...

Make games, not war.

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nackidno

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Posted: 16th Oct 2008 21:45

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Isn't Baldurs Gate a great game? It has pretty bad graphics technicaly. But the game is really beautiful, mostly because of the great style of the graphics the artists made. You can't deny that Baldurs Gate is great.

"Ja, för det är jävligt manligt att ligga fosterställning i duschen och raka röven! Testa det!

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Mr Tank

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Posted: 16th Oct 2008 22:54 Edited at: 16th Oct 2008 22:59

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Graphics are important, but i don't really mean polygon counts and that. I don't look at games and want to think "wow, they've really pushed the hardware", i just want to be aesthetically pleased. There are plenty of games on old machines that look great, and which i still get a kick out of looking at. It's more about the design and look of things in the game than how smoothly they are drawn onto the screen.

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bergice

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Posted: 16th Oct 2008 23:55

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I just finished playing JOTR now. (Joint Operations: Typhoon Rising)

I think this game is a good example of bad graphics but really awesome gameplay.

Graphics are poor/ok but the gameplay is awesome.
The shooting system, the levels, the vehicles, the online games.

Really awesome and cool game

http://bergice.blogspot.com/ << Please enter my blog and click ads

Demos,Examples,Tutorials,Portfolio

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Haven Studios

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Posted: 17th Oct 2008 01:08 Edited at: 17th Oct 2008 01:12

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You are so right! I love games with good game play, even though I love to make art, but i look at it in a different way. I don't look at it like hey that looks more like real life I will buy it! I Like how artists use the art and the concepts mix together imagine portal with out the shiny polish, but on the other hand picture it with it and the amazing concept of the game it was simple, but effective. I think art and game play go hand in hand, but not like 50% good graphics and 50% good game play.

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nackidno

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Posted: 17th Oct 2008 18:03

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Quote: "Graphics are important, but i don't really mean polygon counts and that. I don't look at games and want to think "wow, they've really pushed the hardware", i just want to be aesthetically pleased. There are plenty of games on old machines that look great, and which i still get a kick out of looking at. It's more about the design and look of things in the game than how smoothly they are drawn onto the screen."

That was my exact point. A game doesn't have to be technically up-to-date to be good. It's the style and the way the artist immerse the player into the game.

"Ja, för det är jävligt manligt att ligga fosterställning i duschen och raka röven! Testa det!

"

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General Reed

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Posted: 17th Oct 2008 18:19

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Quote: "That was my exact point. A game doesn't have to be technically up-to-date to be good. It's the style and the way the artist immerse the player into the game."

I agree, it does not have to be technicaly up to date, but it has to be beleiveable. Which does mean, that as new games are released, the previous ones look less and less beleiveable. Like Hl1, i cant stand playing that now. Its just so clunky, and old. It no longer feels like a beleiveable world, whereas when it was originaly released, it did.

I remember when i thought Operations: Typhoon rising was soooooo realistic etc, but i reinstalled it the other day, and now its just dull and boring, because it does not feel beleveable.

CPU: AMD X2 6000+ 3.0ghz GFX: NVIDIA BFG Geforce 8800GTS 640MB OC-550mhz core RAM: 2048mb

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tha_rami

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Posted: 17th Oct 2008 22:46 Edited at: 17th Oct 2008 22:52

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I'm a gameplay-addict. I can play the most horrible looking games as long as they're fun. In any case, I certainly don't think graphics are extremely important - I love Mount & Blade, Starcraft, Deus Ex, Diablo II and similar games over Oblivion, Crysis and the like. If CoD4 had had the graphics of Deus Ex, I'd probably still love it.

Really, the only game with great graphics I want is Fallout 3. It appears that as soon as graphics approach the quality back in 2000, I call the graphics 'good'.

Gameplay, on the other hand, is something I can't miss.

So yes, gameplay over graphics. By a lot. If I want graphics, I'll go check some techdemos.