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Geek Culture / Best for C++

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GP PrOdUcTiOnS
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Posted: 24th Oct 2008 02:44 Edited at: 6th Nov 2008 02:25
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what is the best free program for writing C++?

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Aaron Miller
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Posted: 24th Oct 2008 02:50
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I assume you mean compiler. And by best, do you mean syntax or optimization? My FAVORITE is MSVC++. The COMPILER is free. You can get the express edition IDE, but for the IDE I usually use Code::Blocks (However lately I've just been using MSVC++ 6.0).

Digital Mars is okay, but not compatible with most libraries. MinGW/GCC has HORRIBLE inlined ASM syntax (AT&T style). And I've never tried Watcom except in FreeDOS - where I couldn't get it to work.

Cheers,

-naota

I'm not a dictator to those that do stuff for me by will. Only those who don't.
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GP PrOdUcTiOnS
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Posted: 24th Oct 2008 02:52
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Could you hit me up with some links?

http://moonrisingsupport.yoforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=192
[
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Jeff032
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Posted: 24th Oct 2008 02:56
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MSVC++ Express 2008
http://www.microsoft.com/express/vc/

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Aaron Miller
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Posted: 24th Oct 2008 03:10
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Yes.

Cheers,

-naota

I'm not a dictator to those that do stuff for me by will. Only those who don't.
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zenassem
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Posted: 24th Oct 2008 04:01
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Anybody here that used Borland's C++. I remeber thinking it was awesome... that was until I tried MSVC++ 6.0 . Never used the Borland again. It was tough getting used to not using Borland's libraries at the time.

Anyways... I think the fact that MSVC++ express is now free it pretty much takes the lead over anything else on a Windows Machine.
I use to use BloodShed's Dev-C++ but I couldn't see choosing that now.

"When I look at that square... I wish FPSC noobs would stay on their side of the forums and stop polluting these boards." - Benjamin
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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 24th Oct 2008 11:10 Edited at: 24th Oct 2008 11:13
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No, no, no! MSVC++ is slow, not cross platform, horribly bloated and requires hard to read code for the vast majority of things if you use the Win32 API.

Code::Blocks with Boost::Filesystem, OpenGL and GLFW.
About 80Mb at most.

MSVC++ with DirectX SDK is getting on for a Gb.

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dark coder
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Posted: 24th Oct 2008 11:36
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Quote: "MSVC++ is slow"


Get a new PC.

Quote: "not cross platform"


So what? Dual boot or use a VM to run it then.

Quote: "horribly bloated"


Just because you don't know how to use a feature doesn't make it useless/bloat.

Quote: "equires hard to read code for the vast majority of things if you use the Win32 API."


, yes because this is relevant.

Quote: "MSVC++ with DirectX SDK is getting on for a Gb."


So what? It also comes with loads of docs and the DX SDK has many samples with media+code. I'd rather an API come with good examples than be as minimal as possible.

The only bad thing I have to say about VSC++ is that the Intellisense likes to stop updating when I add new things, this doesn't always happen but on a large project this is very annoying.

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Roxas
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Posted: 24th Oct 2008 14:31
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Quote: "So what? Dual boot or use a VM to run it then."

... -.-

I use MinGW and DevCPP compilers. Other for Cross plaftrom and other just for linux usage. Mostly MinGW tho.

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Grandma
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Posted: 24th Oct 2008 15:43
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I rarely program in C++, but when I do, I like to use bloodshed's dev-c++ compiler. Though that's the only compiler I've used, so I wouldn't know how it compares to the others.

Quote: "MSVC++ is slow"

Quote: "Get a new PC."

I'm sure he could, but that wouldn't change the fact that MSVC++ is slow? It would only appear faster, that's not the same thing last time I checked.

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Satchmo
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Posted: 24th Oct 2008 15:51
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What is the standard compiler used for commercial games? Or is there one?

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Veron
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Posted: 24th Oct 2008 16:03
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Quote: "I use to use BloodShed's Dev-C++ but I couldn't see choosing that now."


It's not a bad compiler, I still use it occasionally, but it is a little dated.

MSVC++ all the way - Dark Coder pretty much posted exactly what I was thinking.
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Satchmo
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Posted: 24th Oct 2008 16:14
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Yes, you could use MSCV++ and DarkGDK.net to create 3d games(free).

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Jeku
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Posted: 24th Oct 2008 17:45 Edited at: 24th Oct 2008 17:45
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Quote: "requires hard to read code for the vast majority of things if you use the Win32 API."


Ummmm I have seen you say this same thing in another thread. MSVC does *not* have its own "special" hard-to-read code, ok? The Windows code is the same regardless of what compiler and IDE you use.

MSVC.NET is fast on my machine, which is almost a year old. Not sure where people get the idea it's slow. I'm not saying you're all interested, but for those of you that want to get in the game industry, get used to Visual Studio.

And VC++ 6.0 is outdated by almost a decade. Get with the times, people


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Benjamin
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Posted: 24th Oct 2008 18:11 Edited at: 24th Oct 2008 18:18
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Quote: "MSVC++ is slow, not cross platform, horribly bloated and requires hard to read code for the vast majority of things if you use the Win32 API."

That last statement just says to me that you've never really tried it as you don't seem to know what you're talking about. Besides, the fact that it's not cross platform is not really much of a reason not to use it when using Windows. If you want to compile for Linux then you can get another IDE/compiler for the job. As for it being bloated; I don't really think so, although maybe the version you tried was.

MSVC++ is undoubtedly the best IDE/compiler you'll get.

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David R
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Posted: 24th Oct 2008 19:17 Edited at: 24th Oct 2008 19:22
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Quote: "No, no, no! MSVC++ is slow"


It runs at full speed (i.e. fast) inside Virtualbox on a single core processor

Quote: "The only bad thing I have to say about VSC++ is that the Intellisense likes to stop updating when I add new things, this doesn't always happen but on a large project this is very annoying."


The only other thing I'd add to that, is when you have a solution with different project types, and the "Restart debug" button doesn't restart the project you've just been debugging (if you have static libs in your solution, it prompts you to attach to a process, for instance)


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Mahoney
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Posted: 24th Oct 2008 20:00
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Quote: "No, no, no! MSVC++ is slow, not cross platform, horribly bloated and requires hard to read code for the vast majority of things if you use the Win32 API."


1) It's quite efficient for me, even in a VM with Vista as a host on 1GB of memory. D:

2) This is Microsoft we're talking about. Platform-independent is the standard.

3) Win32 is often ugly, but that's MSVC's fault how?

Besides, it's the standard in the industry. I've never heard of professional teams using anything else, but I've heard of them using VC++ consistently.

Quote: "I'm sure he could, but that wouldn't change the fact that MSVC++ is slow? It would only appear faster, that's not the same thing last time I checked."


If it honestly were slow, you'd be correct. If you ever download the Express edition of VC++ 2008, you'll know why we're supporting it. It is so much nicer than Bloodshed.

Quote: "What is the standard compiler used for commercial games? Or is there one?"


MSVC++. Jeku (who's in the industry) supports that with this statement:

Quote: "I'm not saying you're all interested, but for those of you that want to get in the game industry, get used to Visual Studio."


Quote: "As for it being bloated; I don't really think so, although maybe the version you tried was."


If he tried the Professional version, I can see where he might say it's "bloated." Unless you really know what you're doing, it seems to have far too many features. But of course, that's what the Express version is for.

Quote: "MSVC++ is undoubtedly the best IDE/compiler you'll get."


Definitely. It's as good as it gets (though the Intel Compiler beats the compiler side of it by a fair bit, from what I've heard).

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ionstream
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Posted: 24th Oct 2008 20:10
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I think it should be noted that Dev-C++ is just an IDE, which uses MingW (GCC). Also it is very old, and I see no reason to use it over Code::Blocks.

But yeah, Visual Studio is definitely the standard for any kind of Windows development, and they are in no way obligated to make it cross platform.

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Grandma
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Posted: 24th Oct 2008 20:27
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Quote: "If it honestly were slow, you'd be correct. If you ever download the Express edition of VC++ 2008, you'll know why we're supporting it. It is so much nicer than Bloodshed."

Alright, I personally didn't believe it was slow though, I was just going along with the statements I quoted to show some faulty logic.

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Zombie 20
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Posted: 25th Oct 2008 00:13
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I found bloodshed to be pretty useful, nothing to complain about. As of now, I am using visual studio and have found no complaints, everything works for what I want.


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Phaelax
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Posted: 25th Oct 2008 00:21
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Quote: "MSVC.NET is fast on my machine, which is almost a year old"


Same here.

If you really want to experience a slow development environment, run Eclipse through a VM on a Vista laptop. I hate my project manager for that.


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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 25th Oct 2008 00:32
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Well, I am finding Code::Blocks to be very responsive and quick on this 630mHz laptop and C++ Visual Studio Express to take up to a minute to start and then two to three minutes to load a "solution" on the 1.8gHz desktop with twice as much RAM I have. I suppose it's intended more for high-end systems developers.

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ionstream
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Posted: 25th Oct 2008 02:04
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On my laptop (dual core 1.86GHZ with 3gb ram, Vista), it takes half a second to load the program up (even when its the first time since reboot), and then a second to load a solution of 30 files.

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Jeku
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Posted: 25th Oct 2008 06:03
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Quote: "Well, I am finding Code::Blocks to be very responsive and quick on this 630mHz laptop and C++ Visual Studio Express to take up to a minute to start and then two to three minutes to load a "solution" on the 1.8gHz desktop with twice as much RAM I have. I suppose it's intended more for high-end systems developers."


630mhz--- welcome to 1999 I was a beta tester for the original VS.NET back in 2001, on a 900mhz machine. I can see why you think it's slow.


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IanM
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Posted: 25th Oct 2008 12:17
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I don't understand where this 'not cross platform' rubbish has come from.

'Cross-platform' and 'standards compliant' code is not about the compiler, but about the coder.

It's fully possible (and not that difficult) to write an application that when compiled on the relevant platform will compile and run cleanly. With all the libraries available out there it'll just work:
- GUI's (wxWidgets)
- Filesystem (Boost Filesystem)
- Networking (BSD sockets)
- Rendering (OpenGL)
- Sound (OpenAL)
- Music (Ogg/Vorbis)
... and the list goes on.

Writing the libraries is the hard work, but that's got almost nothing to do with the complier, and almost everything to do with the platform.

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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 25th Oct 2008 14:34
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Quote: "630mhz--- welcome to 1999"


Wasn't that rather good for a laptop in 1999?
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Kevin Picone
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Posted: 25th Oct 2008 16:02
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Ian,

on a completely unrelated note..

Quote: "GUI's (wxWidgets)"


Have you (or anybody) used this ?


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Mahoney
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Posted: 25th Oct 2008 17:50
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Quote: "Wasn't that rather good for a laptop in 1999?"


I have a laptop from 2000 that probably cost about $1000-$1500 (Thinkpad), and it's an 800 Mhz PIII.

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IanM
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Posted: 25th Oct 2008 18:29
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Quote: "Have you (or anybody) used this ?"

Only as an end-user - Code::Blocks is the first obvious one that pops into my head.

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Jeku
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Posted: 25th Oct 2008 20:11
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Quote: "Wasn't that rather good for a laptop in 1999?"


My point is he's commenting on how slow VS.NET runs on his 630Mhz laptop--- it's a moot point really.


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Grandma
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Posted: 25th Oct 2008 20:17
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Quote: "it's a moot point really."

If I got stabbed every time you used the word "moot".... you'd probably use it more often.

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IanM
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Posted: 25th Oct 2008 21:40
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moot, moot, moot, moot, moot, moot, moot!



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Aaron Miller
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Posted: 26th Oct 2008 01:02
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MSVC++'s optimization is better than GCC's on Windows. I'm not sure about Linux, but I assume it'd be the same >_<. The best compiler out there, I believe, is Intel's C++ compiler, which is very highly optimized (As it should be, they made the architecture!).

Dev-C++ sucks unless you do proper configuration, but even then it sucks.

The MSVC++ IDE (At least 6.0) starts up immediately for me. Faster than Code::Blocks and Dev-C++. So, that one is not slow.

Quote: "Get with the times"

No, the times need to get with me - everything is going horribly wrong. No one's concerned about optimization in a proper sense. Everyone's using functions for things that don't need them. OOP is being used in such a way that adds a complicated mess to code when it's unnecessary (OOP is being used wrong). Dynamic allocations are being made for memory that is of a fixed size and will never change. Memory is free'd by the OS when the process is terminated because developers assume no one will run the program on an OS like Win98. Not to mention .NET - which is clearly Microsoft's way of sucking blood from its victims so they can't use anything else (Compiler and OS-wise). Not to mention all this anti-piracy crap is more of a hassle for the end-user than it is for the pirates! IMO, the times need to have just as much power as it does today, but with some of the same methods (note *SOME*) as the old days.

Cheers,

-naota

I'm not a dictator to those that do stuff for me by will. Only those who don't.
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Roxas
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Posted: 26th Oct 2008 01:45
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Hmm.. I have to look into Intel C++ Compiler.

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Mahoney
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Posted: 26th Oct 2008 04:39
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Quote: "Hmm.. I have to look into Intel C++ Compiler."


I wanted to try it, too. But, it's about $500.

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Jeku
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Posted: 26th Oct 2008 05:41
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Quote: "The MSVC++ IDE (At least 6.0) starts up immediately for me."


What's the point of using a version that's over 10 years old?


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Roxas
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Posted: 26th Oct 2008 11:31
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Quote: "I wanted to try it, too. But, it's about $500."


It has non-comerical usage version. Im using it now.

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David R
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Posted: 26th Oct 2008 13:56
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Quote: "MSVC++'s optimization is better than GCC's on Windows. I'm not sure about Linux, but I assume it'd be the same >_<"


I'm sorry, but without figures to back that up, you're merely assuming that MS will trump open source by some arbitrary designation.

GCC had quite a lot of features quite a while before MSVC's compiler did (e.g. the stack protection patches which appeared in early 2000 or something) so I wouldn't be surprised if they're equal in optimisation (if not gcc the superior of the two)


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Mahoney
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Posted: 26th Oct 2008 14:44
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Quote: "It has non-comerical usage version. Im using it now."


Isn't that only for Linux?

Quote: "I'm sorry, but without figures to back that up, you're merely assuming that MS will trump open source by some arbitrary designation.

GCC had quite a lot of features quite a while before MSVC's compiler did (e.g. the stack protection patches which appeared in early 2000 or something) so I wouldn't be surprised if they're equal in optimisation (if not gcc the superior of the two)"


VC++ is generally better at optimizing than GCC. GCC 4 is better than 3, but still lags behing VC++.

GCC's advantage is cross-platform support, not optimizations.

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Kevin Picone
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Posted: 26th Oct 2008 15:02
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Sounds like an assumption masquerading as fact to me. I'd be more concern about optimizing my 'method' than compiler level optimizations.


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David R
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Posted: 26th Oct 2008 15:28
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Quote: "VC++ is generally better at optimizing than GCC. GCC 4 is better than 3, but still lags behing VC++.

GCC's advantage is cross-platform support, not optimizations."


Without solid evidence, that's no more factual than what Aaron initially said.
Also, the final point is a misconception, for two reasons

* The platforms supported has nothing to do with the code generated. Hence why win32 apps can be built on linux. And hence, this is nothing to do with optimisation (or its ability to do so) at all

* If you meant language/platform support, then it's still a misnomer: The point of GCC (the entire compiler collection, that is) is that each phase of compilation is broken down into steps that are shared amongst all the languages (like a primitive abstraction of each step). Hence optimisations general to any lang, or specific to just one can be performed.


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Mahoney
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Posted: 26th Oct 2008 20:06
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Um, what? I meant that GCC (the compiler itself) runs on many platforms.

And I'm looking for benchmark data.

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David R
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Posted: 26th Oct 2008 20:38 Edited at: 26th Oct 2008 20:41
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Then what I said already applies:

Quote: "The platforms supported has nothing to do with the code generated. Hence why win32 apps can be built on linux. And hence, this is nothing to do with optimisation (or its ability to do so) at all"


EDIT:
Quote: "? I meant that GCC (the compiler itself)"


I was referring to the entire collection of compilers (hence the name) not just the C compiler


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Mahoney
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Posted: 26th Oct 2008 21:13
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Quote: "The platforms supported has nothing to do with the code generated. Hence why win32 apps can be built on linux. And hence, this is nothing to do with optimisation (or its ability to do so) at all"


I didn't say it had anything to do with optimizations. I was saying that's the great advantage to GNU compilers. :/

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Aaron Miller
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Posted: 26th Oct 2008 21:29
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MSVC++ has better optimization according to someone I know who has used both MSVC++ and GCC (and currently uses both for his project). I won't say who because this *could* bring a negative perspective towards his current projects. He explained why to me very well, however I'm having trouble remembering exactly what he said. But, with maximum optimization on GCC and maximum optimization on MSVC++, much more code actually gets optimized in MSVC++ than GCC, according to his tests. I'll perform some tests later as well and post them back to you.

Cheers,

-naota

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Roxas
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Posted: 26th Oct 2008 21:42
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Quote: "Isn't that only for Linux?"

Ah sorry im using Linux

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