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Geek Culture / Shareware Games

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Robin
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Posted: 31st Jul 2003 13:31
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Basically, i'd just like to know if I make a game in DB, is it legal to then sell it over the internet as shareware? I'm living in the UK if that has anything to do with it.
Thanks
Robin
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MrTAToad
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Posted: 31st Jul 2003 13:35 Edited at: 31st Jul 2003 13:36
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Yes, as long as you dont use anything that is copyrighted without the owners express permission - ie no copying graphics, music etc from other people unless they let you.

If you do ask (and they let you), make sure you get it in writing too.


Its better than a poke in the eye...
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 31st Jul 2003 14:18
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Quote: "make sure you get it in writing too"


HARDCOPY writing, ie. have them mail you a letter saying you can use it.
else people have a tendancy when your stuff looks like its doing well to crop up and lie just to get a piece of the pie.

of course you could ask a production/publisher to sort out the legalities for you

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Van B
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Posted: 31st Jul 2003 16:57
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Probably obvious, but keep good records of all your sales, and try and save as much of the money you make as possible. There are laws regarding ancilliary earnings, but unless you make thousands, you probably won't be harassed by the tax office. I think you have to pay tax on earnings over £5,000 a year - don't quote me, that's a guess.

I'm thinking about shareware as well, but I don't think there's a lot of money in it these days, perhaps finding a publisher is a better idea, maybe Guildhall would publish DB games too, anyone ever asked them?


Van-B

My cats breath smells of cat food.
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Eddie Gordo
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Posted: 31st Jul 2003 17:01 Edited at: 31st Jul 2003 17:11
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In the US i believe you need a small business license, even though some internet stores avoid this...you will need a business license to sell to a publisher, and then you have to pay taxes quarterly on making money over 500$(five-hundred), i believe, after the first year...yes, i know a CPA, he went over it with me...and well thats US law i dont know about UK and over seas...but its still hard to do cause they will screw you over in america if your a small business...

Your best bet is to get a publishing deal by pitching to a company of that genre, but do the research on the law part first form [href]www.gignews.com[/href] and you will be fine, also you will need to research the Publishers Genres and the success with them, then you will need to formulate a strategy on what part of the market your game appeals to, whats your key demographic, then you will want to include a set of scheduales a demo some video and alot of graphic(not text) power point presentation slides showing your Concept art Ideas and diagrams on the way it works, a list of features, and so on...make sure you put a slide with a link to the demo you send them...and send them a mock up of the real box and several CDs that they can send to different people for viewing...

And dont use e-mail as a method of contact, use the phone its more professional...

Any questions...Maybe i should be the mod of business law ) ...i need to do a little research on the actual tax, but im sure that a publisher is better...

Oh, and Raven...if its a Publisher apointed Producer they probly wont do that as they will be handeling error reports for about 5 games at any givin time and re-working scheduale...

And yeah i over-said it all...but...well...if its sold over the internet you probly avoid a license...

Oh, and you can make a good pitch to Sega...just e-mail and they will list you as a developer for them.

Visual Programming Studio ORANGE
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 31st Jul 2003 17:24
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Van add a zero onto the end of that figure and your right
even then its only a light tax of between 2-4% until you hit the £1,000,000 mark, most of which is refunded every April.

as for Publisher appointed Producers (and your assuming that the publisher is seperate from the producer which at shareware/budget level just isn't the case most of the time) ... you have to remember they won't handle ANY of the support, your company will be on the support package and have to handle errors and updates.

(sorry but companies making budget and/or shareware titles don't get the little perks that seperate production companies provide, suchas contracted manual & cover production... which is why most actually are PDF now instead)

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Richard Davey
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Posted: 31st Jul 2003 18:31
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"I think you have to pay tax on earnings over £5,000 a year - don't quote me, that's a guess."

Less than that I'm afraid. Currently around £2400. I'd give you an exact amount but I just sent back my tax return so I don't have the paperwork infront of me.

Of course you don't have to declare any of it! and unless you file your own tax return (and most people in the UK don't) then it's actually quite a pain to declare extra earnings because the Inland Revenue assume everything you earn to be tied up in your PAYE. Such is life!

There are virtually no benefits of being VAT Registered if you sell nothing but Shareware via the Internet. Traditionally you become VAT registered if you do a lot of trading (i.e. buying services/goods AND selling them). Because the VAT you charge customers (and HAVE to charge them by law) you can offset against any purchases you make (from other VAT registered companies). If you try and swing it too much (i.e. claim money back) be prepared for serious inspections!

Mostly VAT just costs you money and gets you nothing if this is small scale. Don't believe for a second that any VAT you pay you can get it all back come April, that couldn't be further from the truth. If you sell lots and buy very little (which is how most companies work), then you pay lots of VAT, simple as that. It's how the whole UK economy works! There's no avoiding it I'm afraid. If you want to do this properly start as a sole trader, do not register for VAT and get a good accountant.

Cheers,

Rich

"Gentlemen, we are about to short-circuit the Universe!"
New DBS Web Sites Coming Soon - All Change
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Van B
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Posted: 31st Jul 2003 18:49
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So, if I was unemployed, and making shareware games, I would'nt have to pay tax unless my earnings reached £50,000 a year?

Yet I don't earn that in my job but pay about 20% of my salary out in taxes, and about 10% out in national insurance. I've never even had a single tax refund!.

No Van-B does not like the UK government or it's taxation system, or it's national insurance, where I'm paying some old gits pension all my life only to be laughed at when it comes round to my turn .


Van-B

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 31st Jul 2003 19:40
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it all depends really ... if you simply sell the shareware as a person, then i could be counted as a "personal" earnings, but only if you make more than £3,200 in a single transaction.

now if you happen to be unemployed and are selling something, then you should be filing for a cumulative income - which allows you a leaway of around £2,500 (which is ontop of your Job-Seekers allowance essencially bringing the figure to the projected £5,000 bracket for non/low-earners)

if however you are employed part-time and are earning less than £5,000 then you're allowed to have personal earnings of upto £5,000 ontop of this. (i'm not sure why by i had it explained to me once)
from what i remember your second earning although your not working would be counted as a second (self)employment. Hense the tax break.

this is ofcourse provided you declare any of this, becuase in the UK they don't checkup - or atleast they didn't used to.
technically speaking selling software when your unemployed and claiming benifits is illegal, but if you pay your tax doing it for some reason its oki. (not that you pay as much as class1 bracket)

however alternatively you can apply to be self-employed ... this would mean you forfeit your benifits from the state, however this will allow you to earn upto £50,000 before paying tax.
(which isn't bad for £100 startup... but for that to work you'd need a good customerbase to start with)

it's pretty cool because your earnings shift from personal->business, and as long as you only pay yourself <£5,000 a year you not only get a tax break for your company earnings ... but also one for personal.
If you work from home you can write on the bills as company charges and pay them from the company account (same with new hardware & software)

even more interesting is that you can actually be self-employed whilst also having a full time job. As there are no laws against holding down more than 1 job, just as long as you don't work over the 72hr working limit.
there's also some rule about parttime workers who work less than 16hrs - they get taxxed per month per earnings ... so that way some months you can work more and be taxxed a lil and some months you take it ease and arn't.

they also give you more child benifits too, not sure why, just do.
the IRS in the UK's a good system for people who want to play it cause its got alot of loop holes and isn't checked much.

as for getting into the £50k bracket... it isn't worth it.
your talking 40% tax... you'd really be earning £28k, thats just for like the standard tax and not for all those lil extras like pension(haha better of 3rd party) and god knows what else.
i swear theres like a "pay for the current cabinate to go out on the lash" tax - sit there and read through it... looks like a CreditCard report when you let your mate use it.

$400 on a cucumber leg wax?! when the heck will i ever be that hungry? (probably when the pension i should be getting is rerouted through 20new agencies which somehow means i end up with just enough for 1tea bag a day and i feed that to my cat) lol

you remember that Asterix where he's doing those 12tasks for Ceaser... and they're in that place which makes you fill in 200forms which do nothing but allow youto fill out other forms.
thats what i feel the Taxing System is like.

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the_winch
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Posted: 31st Jul 2003 19:58
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I think you have a choice of becoming vat registered or not until your turnover reaches a certain ammount. Once it is over that ammount you have to register. Definatly not a good idea to register if you are selling games. Too much selling no enough buying. Perhaps you could get yourself a nice computer and claim back the vat. If you are unlucky enough to be investgated You will wish you had paid the vat in the first place.

If you are going to do it keep very very good records and details of everything you do recarding the business.

Or just do what I would do, you will proberly not even see more than £200 a year from selling shareware just don't declare it.
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Kevin Picone
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Posted: 31st Jul 2003 21:08 Edited at: 31st Jul 2003 21:15
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Quote: " VanB -"I'm thinking about shareware as well, but I don't think there's a lot of money in it these days, perhaps finding a publisher is a better idea, maybe Guildhall would publish DB games too, anyone ever asked them?" "


I've spoken with guildhall a couple of times, the mere mention of "oh it's written in DB" and they seemed to glaze over.. So I wouldn't count on them. But worth a try.

While a select few do very well from selling shareware games the majority are spectacular failures. I think mainly as those who jump in (myself included here) assume it's a quick turn around from concept to banking cheques. Sadly this is pure fantasy. For the majority of people I've had the opportunity speak with, all tell a familiar story. Generally their first year was virtually a none event in terms of sales... Not always mind you, some were worse!..

Stream lining your products site for selling is far more difficult than writing the software. The market place is now so over serviced with online developers / freeware authors and home start ups, that I think it's very unrealistic for the majority of fellow db'ers to assume they can earn anything more than pocket money online. (I.e. I wouldn't be too worried about hitting those tax brackets above..) Ironically though, More often than not, bad software can out sell it's rivals purely when effectively marketed.

If I was going to design/write software purely to earn, more market awareness would be necessary.. Identifying your target market, the ** customers need **!, is the real battle here. Find a niche, work it, build brand. Don't waste time competing with ID. The unfortunate reality is that with selling there comes customers, and namely user and technical support. (responsibilities and obligations) User/Product support is perhaps the most taxing part of running online, at least it is for me. For example, while this year I must say the number of DB related questions in my inbox has dropped considerable, it is still more than I could possibly handle. If i'm to keep focused on our actual customer base.

Anyway, While I'm painting something of a bleak picture I guess, for those with marketing experience online or a publisher in your pocket, well, then they have a better chance.

Whatever the situation, think long term. Think crescendo..

l8r,
Kevin Picone
[url]www.underwaredesign.com[/url]
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Rob K
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Posted: 31st Jul 2003 21:09
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Remember that if you charge only a small amount for your games, people in the UK won't have to pay VAT on them.


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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 31st Jul 2003 21:26
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yeah it is a fantasy Kev... unless you can get yourself good PR.
you'll be surprised but magazines like PCGamerUK & GamesTech will put your Shareware games on thier mags if they like them, they don't charge anything for it niether.

it is fantastic PR and from that you know that around 200,000 people will see your game that month - they might not play it, but its more users than Blitz/GameStudio/DBP/RGT/PB forums combined.

leeching off others sites are also good where you know alot of people will be which are in your market.

you might not like Pokémon, but over 4million kids DO! and most of them subscribe to forums on the subject ... go in plug your game, might get taken down within a few days - but if there was a viable demo kids are likely to want to buy it if they like it.
(rich kids on broadband are the best market in the world cause they'd by a stick of ABC gum if you made it look nice, guillible and rich is a good combination )

getting it as a main feature are 3DFiles or FilePlanet will also attract people to your title ... (with user bases of a few million each) and all i takes is actually taking to the owners.

the difference between good and bad shareware companies isn't a fact of it being a gamble or how good the product is, its being able to get it actually noticed.
the better the PR you can pull off, the better people will want it.

look at GTA - a contriversial title to the core world over, you think thats harmed the sales? heck no, they get record sales because its the fact that people want what people don't want them to have.

really get yourself someone who can plug you in the nitché market for your product, and have them play up what it is capable of and you'll sell far better.
just look at DBP - alot of the comments about DBPs abilities on the website are all true, but they glorify the produce on things that the program might not quite actually live upto.

all about image, the better or more larger than life you can make things appear the better they'll do.

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Eddie Gordo
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Posted: 31st Jul 2003 21:34 Edited at: 31st Jul 2003 21:35
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Bravo Raven, we can all see you understand the Business side of the game R/D relations with a Producer and Publisher...so got a deal going...

Visual Programming Studio ORANGE
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MikeS
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Posted: 31st Jul 2003 21:39
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As far as marketing your game, if you send it to places like gamespy, gamespot, or just magazine companies (like Raven Mentioned), you'll be able to attract loads of people. Go to forums with game developers like this one, as it is really appealing for other amatuer game developers to see other amatuer game developers games actually being finished and on the market.

Places to send game for publishing-
Well, you could always try Garage Game. They'll sell boxed versions of your game if they really like it enough. 65% royalties isn't too bad either.

It's interesting, I heard someone say this somewhere.(might've been in this topic)

That it's harder to sell/market a game, then it is too build one.

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HZence
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Posted: 1st Aug 2003 00:13
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What about payment? I think that the easiest way would probably be to use PayPal - which I will eventually. Does anyone have any other suggestions?

Oh, and this seems like an appropriate thread to pop this question. Does anyone have any recommendations for cheap and reliable website hosts? I've used Yahoo before (well, not me directly, so I didn't understand it entirely). Any other ideas?

SW Games - www.freewebs.com/swgames

Yeah, I know, I only have one game. Yeah, I know it sucks. But I made it! Me!
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Eddie Gordo
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Posted: 1st Aug 2003 00:14
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i would like to say for a store online you should use www.GISOL.com they have a free store in theyre package so you wont have to pay extra for it...that is if you want to sell it thatway...

Visual Programming Studio ORANGE
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(Will Be Availeable When This is Removed)
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HZence
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Posted: 1st Aug 2003 00:28
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Oh yeah, I forgot about www.cafepress.com (they're better )

SW Games - www.freewebs.com/swgames

Yeah, I know, I only have one game. Yeah, I know it sucks. But I made it! Me!
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Shock
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Posted: 1st Aug 2003 00:42
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ohno, please say you arnt using cafepress, lol. They used to be ace, but they changed their terms and everything, and now you'll probably make nothing (in fact, you'll probably end up owing them money!).

There are lots of hate sites out there you could find on google, which normally have a few *alternitives*.

Sticking feathers up your butt doesn't make you a chicken.
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Steverino
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Posted: 1st Aug 2003 00:43
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Here's a comparison of different outfits that will handle credit card payments for you:
http://www.blackcatsystems.com/regservices/

I use Digital Candle http://www.digitalcandle.com and am pretty happy with them. Once it's set up, it's fully automated. Just deposit the check you get in the mail every month.

If you register your domain name with http://www.doteasy.com, you can get free, bannerless web hosting, with some limitations like a 1GB monthly transfer limit. It takes quite a bit of budgetless marketing to even use 1GB though, unless your demo program is quite huge.

What you want to avoid is spending a lot of money up front before you even know if you've created something people are willing to buy. Your competition is all the really great freeware out there.

____________________________________________
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Kevin Picone
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Posted: 1st Aug 2003 00:45
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Hzence:

Shareit.com (free sign up) & Regnow.com (up front cost) are perhaps the more while used services available.

l8r,
Kevin Picone
[url]www.underwaredesign.com[/url]
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Kevin Picone
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Posted: 1st Aug 2003 01:04
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Quote: " yeah it is a fantasy Kev... unless you can get yourself good PR.
you'll be surprised but magazines like PCGamerUK & GamesTech will put your Shareware games on thier mags if they like them, they don't charge anything for it niether. it is fantastic PR and from that you know that around 200,000 people will see your game that month - they might not play it, but its more users than Blitz/GameStudio/DBP/RGT/PB forums combined.
"



While of course all 'good' exposure is positive, in particular in the main stream arena. However It's certainly not as simple and dropping an email and saying "Hey put my title on your cover CD, I know you want too." To date, I only know of two authors whom have been successful in getting their game upon cover CD. Both were very well publicised previously online.

Anyway, Another idea is to think outside of the box. I.e. Say a persons game is about Bowling, why not write a press release and submit it bowling magazines, newsletters.. Visit your local bowling club.



Quote: "
you might not like Pokémon, but over 4million kids DO! and most of them subscribe to forums on the subject ... go in plug your game, might get taken down within a few days - but if there was a viable demo kids are likely to want to buy it if they like it. (rich kids on broadband are the best market in the world cause they'd by a stick of ABC gum if you made it look nice, guillible and rich is a good combination )

getting it as a main feature are 3DFiles or FilePlanet will also attract people to your title ... (with user bases of a few million each) and all i takes is actually taking to the owners.
"



These kind of promotions do equate to better product awareness, but it doesn't necessarily equate to 'better sales'. I.e. The thinking Lots of downloads/visitors will make you rich, is an extremely common misconception. Moreover to make this situation worse, more and more of the previously free promotional services for authors are now moving to pay-for-service structures. (download.com etc)


One of the common problems with online promotions, is not understanding the demographics of your product or the visitors of any particular site. A site aimed at kids / young adults / techno heads, may well gain you brief exposure overload, but commonly these people are either not in a position to buy online (too young / no credit card / don't feel it's safe etc), or are simply not visiting to buy just to be informed. So in many situations you could achieve far better results from a fraction of the downloads, merely spreading the word on sites with better suited demographics (audiences more inclined to buy).


The point i'm trying to make here is one of balance. While the many hypers will tell us just how easy this all is, we ALL have to be practical enough to realize that to sell with any real volume, takes a great deal of full time effort.

l8r,
Kevin Picone
[url]www.underwaredesign.com[/url]
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