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DarkBASIC Discussion / DarkBASIC is primitive and crude.

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Unused Forum Name
16
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Posted: 5th Feb 2009 06:05
Programming in DarkBASIC is all about working around missing features and poor design choices. You can't pass anything except strings and scalars as arguments to functions (and you can't use them as return values either), so you have to put lots of global variables in your program. The condition clause of an IF statement can't span multiple lines, so if you have a long IF condition, you have to accept a really long line. The syntax DO..LOOP UNTIL condition, supported even by the BASIC on the useless Timex Sinclair computer, is unsupported by DarkBASIC, so if you need the equivalent functionality you have to use GOTO. 3D objects are referenced by number, so you have to write what amounts to your own version of malloc() and free() to keep track of which of these numbers are currently in use. DarkBASIC doesn't support function pointers or functions as values, so you end up having to copy and paste code. All of these things mean that DarkBASIC programs get unmaintainable more quickly than they would if these problems were solved, which means that the author of a DarkBASIC program will hit their complexity limit quickly, allowing their C++-using competitors to catch up and surpass them.

The really atrocious thing is that most of these problems are never encountered in free, open-source programming languages-- not even open-source BASICs. If you're going to charge money for DarkBASIC, it should suck LESS than what you can download for free, not MORE.
TheComet
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Location: I`m under ur bridge eating ur goatz.
Posted: 5th Feb 2009 10:16
It's great for beginners, isn't it?

And you are wrong about the costs. Free Basic languages don't support 3D, and I happily paid for DBC. It is a great joy in my life, and I don't think it is correct of you to go around saying how it sucks.

Of course you need better languages to make commercial games, but this is for beginners, like I said.

Peachy, and the Chaos of the Gems

calcyman
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Location: The Uncertainty Principle
Posted: 5th Feb 2009 14:23
Quote: " is unsupported by DarkBASIC, so if you need the equivalent functionality you have to use GOTO. "


Oh no you don't, there's the keyword exit which is even more powerful than the until condition.

The optomist's right, The pessimist's right.
Benjamin
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Posted: 5th Feb 2009 15:19
Fail.

Quote: "You can't pass anything except strings and scalars as arguments to functions (and you can't use them as return values either)"

You can return strings just fine, not sure what you mean by 'scalars' but you can return integers and floats just fine.

Quote: "so you have to put lots of global variables in your program"

Globals are only available in DBPro, so clearly you've posted this in the wrong section.

Quote: "The syntax DO..LOOP UNTIL condition, supported even by the BASIC on the useless Timex Sinclair computer, is unsupported by DarkBASIC"

It's called REPEAT...UNTIL.

Quote: "3D objects are referenced by number, so you have to write what amounts to your own version of malloc() and free() to keep track of which of these numbers are currently in use"

I think the usefulness of object numbers is subjective.

Quote: "DarkBASIC doesn't support function pointers or functions as values, so you end up having to copy and paste code."

How many BASIC variants support function pointers? And what do you mean by functions as values?

You should really get to know a language before you bash it.

Phaelax
DBPro Master
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Posted: 5th Feb 2009 15:47
I think he's just mad cause nobody would give him 'da codez'.

If there were better, free, alternatives, don't you think a lot of us would be using them? DB's main competitor is probably BlitzBasic, which isn't free.


I somewhat agree on the whole object number thing and would prefer the commands would build/return an actual object-like structure, but its a procedural language.

I believe DBP does allow commands to span multiple lines by using a line concatenation symbol.

It's got its downfalls, but DBP fixes most issues I had with DBC and allows for easier expansion of functionality if you know C++. Not to mention its still in regular development, unlike most other Basic languages I've seen which tried to offer the same ease of 3D programming.

Your signature has been erased by a mod because it's larger than 600x120
Latch
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Posted: 5th Feb 2009 19:43
This post is here just to rattle some cages! The poster isn't asking for any help or solutions on what they find to be short-comings. They don't want to solve anything or make anything, they just want to get some users going!

Quote: "And what do you mean by functions as values?"


Maybe it means something like



Which works fine in DBC.

Yikes! I've been baited!

Enjoy your day.
Phaelax
DBPro Master
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Posted: 5th Feb 2009 20:03
probably one of them blitzbasic coders he be!

Your signature has been erased by a mod because it's larger than 600x120
NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 5th Feb 2009 20:12 Edited at: 5th Feb 2009 20:15
If you wanna see just how bad it can get, try GLBasic. A good idea done bad. It's a very messy language. DB is great because it keeps things simple.

Most of DB's user base don't want function pointers. Most of DB's user base don't want pointers full stop because they're just not needed outside of C. Functions can be used as variables, I did that sort of thing all the time when I used to use DB.

What good is knowledge without a degree of understanding?
Robert The Robot
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Posted: 5th Feb 2009 21:20
Quote: "Of course you need better languages to make commercial games, but this is for beginners, like I said."

Really? What about Riftspace?

Dark basic is an older programming language, so it doesn't have all the nifty graphics features that modern games take advantage of (shaders and such) but its still a great programming language. taking a pretty well known example, Evochron just oozes gloss, shine and sheer style, yet it was all done thanks to (or should I say in spite of?) DarkBASIC's 'missing features' and 'poor design choices'.

Unused Forum Name, you should just spend some time sifting through the tutorials and the various command help files. You'll realise that DBC is a very powerful 3d game engine and will allow you to achieve virtually anything, if you're just willing to put in the time and effort. The only real limit is your imagination!

"I wish I was a spaceman, the fastest guy alive. I'd fly you round the universe, in Fireball XL5..."
Yodaman Jer
User Banned
Posted: 5th Feb 2009 21:29 Edited at: 5th Feb 2009 21:46
Wow. Brave. You come on here, after just joining, to crush the potential dreams of multiple new comers who are excited to start learning the ropes of programming. It's BASIC!! It's supposed to be simple!! If you want to expand in functionality you either upgrade to DBPro or purchase a more advanced, hundreds-of-dollars engine. You've presented yourself as an arrogant b******, honestly, so kudos to you.

Quote: "The really atrocious thing is that most of these problems are never encountered in free, open-source programming languages-- not even open-source BASICs. If you're going to charge money for DarkBASIC, it should suck LESS than what you can download for free, not MORE."


Umm...are you serious? Yes, DarkBASIC has its small bugs, but keep in mind that EVERY piece of software has its issues! DBPro isn't that buggy, and there are plenty of ways to overcome the bugs in DBC (DarkBASIC Classic, or the not-the-pro version) if you know your way around programming.

I have just one question:

Why did you come on here just to trash DarkBASIC? It has plenty of supporters, so congratulations on ticking a bunch of people off.

Quote: "Joined: Mon Feb 2nd 2009 "


Welcome to the forums!!

EDIT:

Quote: "Quote: "3D objects are referenced by number, so you have to write what amounts to your own version of malloc() and free() to keep track of which of these numbers are currently in use"
I think the usefulness of object numbers is subjective."


Object numbers are incredibly useful. What else would be easier than that?

EDIT2:

Arrgh, stupid typos/grammatical errors.



Wait....what?
Cash Curtis II
20
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Location: Corpus Christi Texas
Posted: 6th Feb 2009 00:50
It's pointless to respond to these arguments, this is just some nerd who is mad that he can't program or make a game so he made a fake forum name and won't ever post again.


Come see the WIP!
Sinani201
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Location: Aperture Science Enrichment Center
Posted: 6th Feb 2009 02:27 Edited at: 6th Feb 2009 02:33
Quote: "Globals are only available in DBPro, so clearly you've posted this in the wrong section."


No, you can use arrays as globals, such as DIM Global(1) = x. That makes a global.

Unused Forum Name:
No, no. I agree with what Benjamin said, as he had a contradicting statement for every "bad feature" DB has. It's not a super good dream language, but no programming language is perfect. You shouldn't make an account for the sole purpose of ranting the language, and then just abandon the first thread you make. Lovely.


"I reveal my trap card, GEORGE DUBYA BUSH!
America loses 2000 Life Points! America loses." -Deucalion2
Caleb1994
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Location: The Internet you idiot!
Posted: 6th Feb 2009 05:07
wow...just..... wow.....



that was the dumbest and most useless post i have ever seen. not to mention the fact that half of it isn't true!
TheComet
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Location: I`m under ur bridge eating ur goatz.
Posted: 6th Feb 2009 08:39
I printed his post out and flushed it down the toilet... That's how useless and pothetic your post is.

Get a life, man!

TheComet

Peachy, and the Chaos of the Gems

Benjamin
22
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Posted: 6th Feb 2009 12:34
Quote: "It's pointless to respond to these arguments, this is just some nerd who is mad that he can't program or make a game so he made a fake forum name and won't ever post again."

I'm pretty sure I've seen him post in other parts of the forums, I just can't remember where.

Caleb1994
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Location: The Internet you idiot!
Posted: 6th Feb 2009 18:35
ya me too
Sinani201
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Posted: 6th Feb 2009 18:45
Quote: "I'm pretty sure I've seen him post in other parts of the forums, I just can't remember where."


No, he hasn't. Here is his profile: http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=view_profile&i=913bb8c23501b383436e66c190492014

Press the "list all posts," and only this will come up. The only other exception is replies to other posts, and deleted posts.


"I reveal my trap card, GEORGE DUBYA BUSH!
America loses 2000 Life Points! America loses." -Deucalion2
NanoGamez guy
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Posted: 6th Feb 2009 19:48
Quote: "It's pointless to respond to these arguments, this is just some nerd who is mad that he can't program or make a game so he made a fake forum name and won't ever post again."


I agree, he probably just did it for the rush of insulting a load of people whilst knowing that he is safe behind his computer. I bet right now he is sitting behind his screen laughing at us, when in fact, we should be laughing at him.


"There is no charge for awesomeness" - The Kung Fu Panda
Phaelax
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Posted: 7th Feb 2009 00:29
Who? What? Oh, that guy. I already forgot about it.

Your signature has been erased by a mod because it's larger than 600x120
Benjamin
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Posted: 7th Feb 2009 00:50
Quote: "No, he hasn't. Here is his profile: http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=view_profile&i=913bb8c23501b383436e66c190492014"

I meant he has posted messages in other threads.

RYD
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Posted: 7th Feb 2009 03:24
Unused Forum Name go say that evocron renegades is crude for the programmers to eat ya up

MY SUBCONSCIENT IS AS POWERFULL AS EINSTEINS INTUITION
Caleb1994
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Location: The Internet you idiot!
Posted: 7th Feb 2009 03:34
hahah ya i checked that one out that is amazing lol. well i'm pretty sure this is a one sided debate lol
Yodaman Jer
User Banned
Posted: 7th Feb 2009 06:31
Quote: "Unused Forum Name go say that evocron renegades is crude for the programmers to eat ya up"


Yes. I triple-dog-dare you, Unused Forum Name.



Wait....what?
Caleb1994
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Location: The Internet you idiot!
Posted: 8th Feb 2009 06:06
lol can i vote for a quad droople dare you lol don't know how to spell that
BN2 Productions
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Posted: 8th Feb 2009 07:26
Can I vote for a lock on this thread? It doesn't seem like he will be back to accept his thrashing so far.

Great Quote:
"Time...LINE??? Time isn't made out of lines...it is made out of circles. That is why clocks are round!" -Caboose
Quirkyjim
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Posted: 8th Feb 2009 17:39
I second that

~QJ
Lordcorm
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Posted: 8th Feb 2009 21:44
Lol... this guy reminds me of me about 2 years ago.

Then i grew up and learned that some things take hard work to accomplish, and arrogance just leads to continuous fails.

If your so leet 'Unused Forum Name', then why dont you write your own .dlls to fix what isnt there? I know DB/DBPro isnt perfect, but I dont come barging in asking everyone to fix my problems, i just write my own Library to fix the problem.
Libervurto
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Posted: 10th Feb 2009 19:59 Edited at: 10th Feb 2009 20:06
Quote: "The syntax DO..LOOP UNTIL condition, supported even by the BASIC on the useless Timex Sinclair computer, is unsupported by DarkBASIC, so if you need the equivalent functionality you have to use GOTO."

REPEAT...UNTIL does the same thing.

I think you are missing the point of Dark Basic, it was designed to give beginners a chance to use 3D graphics in a simple way, not to compete with C. Yes there are some very annoying aspects of the language but I just accept these because it is so easy to write programs quickly.
If you want something a bit more C-like download DarkGDK.

It might sound stupid but I actually like having to work around missing features, that's why I program on my calculator, you have to be smart and squeeze out as much as you can.
Having a powerful language (and machine) makes you lazy, bad coding goes unpunished because it doesn't cause a noticeable effect on performance. Sometimes I think even DBC is a bit too powerful for a hobbyist.


Goke of the day: [Q]What's a coders' favourite part of an orchestra?
[A]The strings.
BN2 Productions
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Posted: 10th Feb 2009 20:34
Quote: "
It might sound stupid but I actually like having to work around missing features, that's why I program on my calculator, you have to be smart and squeeze out as much as you can."


I second that one. It doesn't take any thought to use a fancy pre-made and perfectly done command. However, when their are holes or incredibly slow commands (can anyone say POINT?) it forces you to think outside the box, either working around the problem, or making your own functions to replace the commands.

Great Quote:
"Time...LINE??? Time isn't made out of lines...it is made out of circles. That is why clocks are round!" -Caboose
Quirkyjim
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Posted: 10th Feb 2009 23:22
Quote: "I program on my calculator"

Yes! I'm not the only one! What model? I've got a TI-84+ SE

~QJ
BN2 Productions
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Posted: 10th Feb 2009 23:44
Quote: "Yes! I'm not the only one! What model? I've got a TI-84+ SE"


Its all about the TI-83.

Great Quote:
"Time...LINE??? Time isn't made out of lines...it is made out of circles. That is why clocks are round!" -Caboose
Libervurto
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Posted: 11th Feb 2009 00:06
Quote: "Yes! I'm not the only one! What model? I've got a TI-84+ SE"

It's a Casio fx-7400G, I had to go read its label
It was a hand-me-down with no manual so it's been tricking working out how to use it. The internet has been pretty helpful though, I copied a Janken (rock, paper, scissors) game for my first game.

The only thing I hate about it is writing the code, you can hardly see anything on the screen, you can only jump to the top/bottom of the program and pressing those little tiny buttons and alpha-locking and inserting and aaargh! but it's cool
I can't work out how to use arrays.

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Sinani201
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Posted: 11th Feb 2009 01:09
I just use one of those cheap solar calculators that you can buy at the store... lol.


"I reveal my trap card, GEORGE DUBYA BUSH!
America loses 2000 Life Points! America loses." -Deucalion2
Quirkyjim
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Posted: 11th Feb 2009 22:09
I use matrices: they come w/ the TI calcs

~QJ
Caleb1994
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Location: The Internet you idiot!
Posted: 12th Feb 2009 05:51
lol
Stig Design Stig Magne
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Posted: 26th Feb 2009 07:57
My answer to topp post is.
the Amoast same as from spider man movie`s
Great power comes greate responsebilety`s
so
DarkBasic or (DBC)=nott so extremme power full programming language but it`s the easy`est programm i have seen only close i have seen is freeBasic but it`s nott good for 3D Games.etc
but c++ is mutch more power full but how the hekk is you going to learn that so quickly as QBasic or freeBasic or DBC as i have allways read in programming book`s from (ThomsonCourseptr) and Dummies book`s is start easy as DBC and end on c++.etc the same as on school you start at start of the school and end at end start easy.
lol only my opinion but it have helped mee spesialy the Programming for Dummies(it contanes Programming from start to finnish in QBasic Language that kikked me on understanding programming) then some c# and C++ VB6 but i Programming moast on DBC. i shud realy write a tutorial HaHA


**StigDesign** cheap 3D Modell Pack`s at www.stigdesign.piczo.com (for Home&Comersial use)soon other aplication`s
RYD
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Posted: 26th Feb 2009 23:27 Edited at: 26th Feb 2009 23:33
WHAT programming n yur calculators!! but you only get words on the screen no lines boxes or even circles can you guys give me a simple code to see what it looks like
Quote: "(they should have invented dark mobile basic )"

Quote: " and not to leave unused user alone even though he is totally wrong(DLL'S and functions can prove it)progrmng on clcltr, maybe that is primitive and crude(dont attack me im just trying to give him a handless hand) "


ARM YOURSELF WITH KNOLEGE
BN2 Productions
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Posted: 27th Feb 2009 00:59
Only graphing calculators support programming. Those have drawing functions, as well as many other programming conventions, so you CAN program. Unfortunately, it isn't text based so I can't really give you a sample, but there are plenty online, just google it.

Quote: "they should have invented dark mobile basic "

They kind of did, it was called Omega Basic and was designed for making Phone Games. It didn't really take off and it is now discontinued.

Great Quote:
"Time...LINE??? Time isn't made out of lines...it is made out of circles. That is why clocks are round!" -Caboose
Caleb1994
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Location: The Internet you idiot!
Posted: 27th Feb 2009 06:13 Edited at: 27th Feb 2009 06:36
tgc made it?

wait just found it i think i'm gunna just check this out for fun
arbiter chewbacca hybrid
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Posted: 4th Mar 2009 00:17
Ur primitive and Crude
BMacZero
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Posted: 4th Mar 2009 03:48 Edited at: 4th Mar 2009 03:50
Quote: "Quote: "Yes! I'm not the only one! What model? I've got a TI-84+ SE"

Its all about the TI-83."


I thought I was the only person who actually tried to use those things for gaming...I used to have lots of free time in Pre-Calc...

@RYD
(I made these on the TI-83 by the way)

Pong?


How about space invaders?


[/Offtopic Randomness]

TheComet
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Location: I`m under ur bridge eating ur goatz.
Posted: 6th Mar 2009 14:34
An excellent point

Peachy, and the Chaos of the Gems

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