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3 Dimensional Chat / You ideal low-poly modelling app, what do you need?

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Van B
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Posted: 1st Sep 2003 17:25
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Right!

As I watch my VANmesh post slowly slide towards the wastelands beyond page 1 - It has become clear that Beta Announcements is not exactly a bee-hive of activity.

So....

I'm making a modelling application for low poly meshes, characters, etc etc. Now, I'd like to know what you guys would like to see in a modelling app. Not saying every idea would be implimented, but I'll certainly give each idea thought and look into the possibilities.

If your worrying about wasting time feeding ideas to a non-existent project, don't - the bones of the modeller are done already, I can add vertices and create polygons, split polygons into 3, optimise verts, it creates memblock meshes already and can import .X models. The rest is well underway and the coding approach is great for experimenting and adding features easily.

I have this idea for UV mapping controls that's never been done before (to my knowledge) - should make for really easy UV editing - so that's more or less covered. What I'd love to see is maybe diagrams on how you think your feature ideas would work, I've tidied up my vertice sorting code, so reorganising, extruding etc should all be fairly manageable (making more vertice functions possible).


Van-B

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Arrow
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Posted: 1st Sep 2003 17:38
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Being abill to edit the model in the 3D view window would be nice.


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Van B
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Posted: 1st Sep 2003 18:12
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Done - Although not in the 3D render, in the 3D wireframe and vertices mode.


Van-B

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Oliver
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Posted: 1st Sep 2003 18:28
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Quote: "I have this idea for UV mapping controls that's never been done before."


Nice, can you tell us more about it? I'd love to have a better way of UV'ing models.

How about being able to do "vertex baking"? It's some fancy word I read in a tutorial somewhere , I think it allows you to take pictures of the models shaded with lights and then use it in the texture. I've nether done it before, though the pictures in that tutorial looked seriously cool.

Being able to Un-triangulate a model with the click of a button would be well usefull too.

And apart from that, just the usual thinks like join, break vertices.

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Van B
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Posted: 1st Sep 2003 18:43
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Normalisation and smoothing will all be automated as well as being manually adjustable. It imports the normals when importing a .X file, so I know the normals code works, but I still need to make a normals calculator for when starting from scratch. It'll involve selecting vertices/polys then pressing a button to calculate the normals.

I don't want to go into too much detail about the UV editing idea, but it's one of those things that make so much sense your surprised it hasn't been done already. I consider myself an ok UV mapper, careless and untidy, but I can get the job done - yet I don't have a clue howto use Lith properly, I use Max most of the time - and that takes ages. The idea is that I'll lay the UV map out in such a fashion that the user will see instantly what is involved in UV mapping, and even get into the habit of modelling with UV mapping in mind. It should allow really quick easy UV mapping, as well as absolute control over the UV map.

For too long I've used umpteen modelling and texturing apps just to get a smooth textured model done - I'm bloody sick of it!.


Van-B

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M00NSHiNE
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Posted: 1st Sep 2003 21:13
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remember the Shiny game Messiah? Where you played the little angel called Bob?

Aparently that game engine used a very strange method of rendering its characters called curve-rendering. Rather than drawing the whole model to the screen , it drew the outline of the model and filled it with triangles instead. Could this be possible?

Anyway, id like to be able to change polygons to squares quickly and easily in one easy to use package and i like the 'dot to dot' method of modelling in milkshape. could these be implemented?

"It's amazin' what you can do with a computer and access to t'internet"
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Simple
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Posted: 1st Sep 2003 21:26
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OOoooow !! another 3D app

Yes, UVmapping can be a pain sometimes. And take longer that the modeling as well.

Moving verts with the arrow keys would be nice, NOT in big jumps ... just a tiny bit at a time so you can place them in exactly the right place

Hope it all works out for you Van.

Simple

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Mattman
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Posted: 1st Sep 2003 22:14
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Simple???? You are back!!!

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Simple
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Posted: 1st Sep 2003 22:25
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Falelorn
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2003 00:23
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Van I like wings for its interface, and ability to mouse3 click and scroll to rotate zoom around the model. Plus texture abilities built in.
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ESC_
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2003 00:48
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Some things I'd recommend:

-A tip extrusion tool
-A drag box for selecting multiple polys
-A bevel, perhaps
-A geosphere primitive

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Guyon
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2003 03:41
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built in unwrap for textureing. Heck what about a built in simple paint tool? That would rock!
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indi
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2003 09:02
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painting 2d live on 3d has always been a interest to me.

http://www.lunarpixel.com
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Falelorn
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2003 09:43
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ya painting on the model would rock
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Disco Stu
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2003 10:02
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For some functionality you could make it that right clicks allow you to edit polygons or other aspects of the mesh and brings up all the appropriate tools (eg: extrude, lathe, bevel etc). It would be a bit of a challenge but you certainly seem to know how to program so I wouldn't put it past you.

Good luck,
Sina

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Van B
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2003 11:38 Edited at: 2nd Sep 2003 11:39
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Moonshine,
I can't think how they did that! - sounds very complicated. Unfortunately we don't have a lot of control over meshes in DBPro .

Simple,
Consider it done, I somehow got the vert dragging perfect, so I'll use the same scale (basically 1 pixel movements). There will be vertice snapping and grid functions too. Edgeloops might make an appearance too, once I find out what they are.

Falelorn,
I'm not sure about mouse controls yet, right now you hold both buttons or press the third to move the viewport or rotate the 3D view, right mouse click and drag to zoom in or out. I'd like decent 3D viewport controls, so I'll probably remap zooming to the scroll wheel if available, or bind it with the shift key to free up the right mouse button.

ESC,
A drag box is in the pipeline, I've been putting it off because it'll be quite tricky to code - but it is an necessity. I was planning on adding the standard primitives, but give control over polycounts etc to the user, a geosphere should not be a problem. I'm thinking of as many polygon splitting methods as I can, so a bevel might appear. One thing I plan to look into is more intelligent splitting, so you could, for example - delete a polygon and every vertice in the poly could shrink to 1 point and become 1 vertice. I'm not sure what you mean by tip extrusion - is that like you'd select a polygon then split it into 3 and extrude the new vert to make a spike (if so we're already jamming).

Guyon/Indi,
You might not believe this, but I did that in DBC about 2 years ago, it's perfectly possible in DBPro, and I'll look into it. At most it'd probably be a 256x256 image, but great for doing rough layouts of your texture map that you can save the image and rescale it to suit. You'll also be able to save the wireframe UV map as an image too, like in Lithunwrap.

Stu,
I'm going for a straightforward and neat gui, so the right mouseclick will be used for a sorta quick menu, like in max. I think I'll put all the selection tools (most of them work on the selected vertices already) like mirroring, splitting, deleting, welding - all that stuff that get's used so much in low poly modelling.


Thanks for all your valued input guys.


Van-B

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Van B
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2003 12:38
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Ohh, Oliver - should be able to do something with your texture baking idea.

Here's the last screenie I have of VANmesh, since this the 3D render view has improved a great deal, texturing is not coded yet but normals are so the model looks far better. The screenie shows an imported .X mesh and the automatic vertice mirroring, meaning moving the right shoulder will move the left shoulder appropriately.



Van-B

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indi
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2003 13:03
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great work if that feature can be applied

I saw a very old classic demo by warpy i think that allowed you to paint red blocks onto a white bitmap that was transponded to every face on a model.

A little more control in this regard would be awesome.

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Van B
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2003 13:44
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The code I have lets you click anywhere on any model and get the X,Y coordinate on the texture - so drawing and painting onto the texture is easy once you know the painting coordinate under the mouse. I can set the model to a flat colour then grab the shaded colour values and the texture coordinate so that texture baking is possible too. The only snag is that your model has to be UV mapped first. I'd tell you how I do it but you'd think I was a nutcase , all I'll say is it's about as far away from maths as you can get.

I think the best bet is to have it as a special viewport mode, so instead of 3D RENDER you might have 3D PAINTING, then the toolbar would change to the simple paint controls, grab a colour and start painting - nice and easy . I'm not gonna spend a lot of time adding paint functions, the idea is that you'd make a really rough version of your texture, export the UV map image, then load them both up as layers in an art package and draw your final texture.


Van-B

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arras
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2003 13:44
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abylity to place and edit vertices, faces and meshes useing numerical walues ...for example to be possible to place wertice on coordinate x0,y50,z45 and then to for example move it 10,3 units along x axis all useing keyboard input not grid.
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Van B
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2003 14:10
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I was thinking about having a command line type thing, because the way I organise my GUI and commands is always with command strings, like a vert sorting routine might be called 'VERTSORT-SEL', which could be called through a menu, a button, or indeed through a command line interface. I'll see how things go, it might be worth adding a sorta script support too, like you might make a little script for optimising models the way you like.

I plan to have automated selecting too, so for example, if you wanted to see which polys have bare edges (edges assigned only 1 poly) - you'll be able to select them, this means you could easily find bugs in your mesh.


Van-B

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M00NSHiNE
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This really shows how powerful DBPro is - i cant wait for it. Is there going to be .3ds export as this is a real biggie for all 3d apps. I need to export into something that Character FX supports so I can animate. But otherwise, very very cool.

You should get an award for this.

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Van B
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2003 15:48
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.X export is a definate, and I'll be looking into the .3DS format too, I want to use it with Character FX as well, so if I can't manage .3DS I'll look into the other formats CFX can import (I'm planning on looking into the CFX format itself as well). Ideally I'd like to make animation a feature, but without boning commands in DBPro I can't really do that much just now.


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indi
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2003 17:22
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very nice idea mate

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Van B
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Posted: 5th Sep 2003 18:47
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Cheers Indi, I have so much to do and all these ideas keep piling on top of one another because I can't work on it!.

Thank god I should get back to work tonight .

I'm not letting this slip onto page 2 until after the weekend guys, so get your thinking caps on - and gimme some more lovely ideas.


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Guyon
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Posted: 5th Sep 2003 19:07 Edited at: 5th Sep 2003 19:14
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Van B,
Making this work with Character FX would add great value to it. I am very excited about your project.

Also do you have in your work log the feature, like hitting the space bar and bring up one of the windows to work full screen for a single view-port?
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Van B
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Posted: 5th Sep 2003 19:33
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Nah, it probably won't be the spacebar - there will be a maximise and minimise button for each viewport though, so it should'nt be too much of a hassle - I might make hotkeys for each viewport too - so you'd maximise then use the hotkeys to navigate the views if that's how you like to work.

I wanna post a pic of the smooth meshes it's making, put the memblock creation stuff in last week and haven't been into it since - it does look the mutts nutts with smoothed out vertices working.


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WebDext
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What up VAN-B I was jus browsin the forums... Cool app =)

How about you implement NURBS modeling in there too haha jk I guess that sortof defeats the purpose bein a low-poly modeler an all haha.

-Webby-
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Lucky Devil
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Posted: 11th Sep 2003 06:35
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[b]What about NRBS modeling but also include a reduction poly tool.

if you can

Anyways cant wait for it sound great!!!!
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JeroenNL
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Posted: 11th Sep 2003 11:35 Edited at: 11th Sep 2003 11:35
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@ Van B: sounds like a very cool app you got there mate! You might have read about me creating a 3d modeller myself (see the signature for the URL ). This thread right here is very interesting for me because it gives me ideas of what to implement (actually, I've implemented quite a bit already). Would you be interested in discussing implementation details (code-talk+algorithms)?

@ LuckyDevil: what would a polygon reduction tool do exactly? In what cases would it reduce the # of polygons in a model?

Use DeleD to get skilled in 3d editing! Visit http://www.gamefortress.com/delgine for more info.
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Lucky Devil
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Posted: 11th Sep 2003 14:53
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Well if you model something for a short cut scene or something you dont want the model to be low poly. so i was just thinkin it would save time if you modeled it high poly for the cut scenes and then reduce the # of polys for the actual game.

its just an idea, its probably hard to make i dont know that much about programing so i dont know.
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Guyon
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Posted: 11th Sep 2003 15:15
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I a not sure Nurbs would add that much to this tool. many people jump on the nurbs band wagon just because the name is cool or it is the "in" thing. I would just like to see a feature rich poly modeling program that exports solid .x and a few other common formats.

I hope you finish this Van B, Give Milkshape a run for it's money!
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JeroenNL
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Posted: 11th Sep 2003 15:25 Edited at: 11th Sep 2003 15:26
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@ LuckyDevil: nice idea. I'll keep it in mind although DeleD is a low polygon modeller. At least for now. Dunno about Van B's modeller (as this is his thread of course ), maybe it does support high-poly modelling.

@ Guyon: think you are absolutely right.

Use DeleD to get skilled in 3d editing! Visit http://www.gamefortress.com/delgine for more info.
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Van B
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Posted: 11th Sep 2003 16:14
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Whoahhh Jeroen! - that's a damn cool looking modeller you've got there!

What are you developing it in?
Once I get a bit more advanced with it, It'd be cool to have a discussion with you about the complicated stuff, got a lot of things to keep me busy on it in the meantime though.

There are a couple more screenies in the Work In Progress forum if anyone missed them.

Nurbs is pretty much out of the question I'm afraid, VANmesh is primarily for low poly character modelling, It'll only support 1 texture map (at least for now) so it's no good for really complex scenes or levels. There is nothing stopping you from creating a high poly model with it - all the primitive commands will have detail options for example. It depends what you'd call high poly though, I mean I'd consider anything over 2000 polys on a character as high poly, I have imported 15k poly models into it though and it worked fine.

Guyon, that's exactly what I want from this, I wanna load it up and model a character, then UV map it, draw the basic texture map, then export it as a .3DS or .X file for loading into CharacterFX. I'm gonna look into the CFX format too, if it makes sense I might look into bone assigning, I don't like the way CharacterFX makes you assign verts, I'd rather do it my own way. Right now I'm tidying things up, optimising my code so it's neat for adding features. I'm trying to get it in a releasable state by the end of the month, It'll continue to be developed but I need to start on a competition entry too, I can't face using all those other programs again just to get a simple mesh made!.


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actarus
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Van:My guess is delphi...The name is kinda revelatory as well

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HEY!!! I'm the one who had 'Cyberspace' in his location on the older black forums,shame on you Rich j/k
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Van B
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Ahh, for some reason Delphi popped into my head too! - maybe because VB never looks that good, and C++ programmers tend not to care a great deal about GUI's while developing stuff.

I reckon DeleD would kick Carto Shops ass, add in a good light mapper and it's already a more attractive option! (sorry, Van-B has no love for Carto).


Van-B

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actarus
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I don't like cartography shop neither,we're probably,not alone.

Just makes no sense to even have it's own forums here,but that's not my buisness anyways...

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HEY!!! I'm the one who had 'Cyberspace' in his location on the older black forums,shame on you Rich j/k
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JeroenNL
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Posted: 11th Sep 2003 16:51 Edited at: 11th Sep 2003 16:59
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@ Van B: you and Actarus are both right. DeleD is being developed in Delphi. "Del" is from "Delphi" and "eD" is from "Editor". DeleD spelled backwards also gives DeleD.

I care a great deal about the GUI for 2 reasons:

1. I like cool GUI's.
2. A well-designed GUI can make people feel comfortable when using the editor while a bad GUI can scare them away (i've heard stories about Blender achieving the latter )

Don't worry about not having much time to discuss the fancy stuff. I have the same problem. If I can spend like 10 full hours a month on DeleD, it's a lot (I mean real programming time).

I didn't have a full-blown lowpoly editor in mind when I first started with DeleD but I had so much fun developing DeleD that I have decided to create a "nice" lowpoly editor now. So right now I'm adding lots of cool things like Vertice Connect, Edge Connect, Hollow, etc. Just looking for more interesting features and came across these fine forums (being told about them by Dave Granada, a regular at these forums... hi dave! ). I definately want .X support but am having a hard time finding good examples of (text) .X files and docs about the fileformat. The MSDN files aren't very good I think. Oh well, it'll get done eventually.

I tried Carto Shop and I think it can produce goodlooking maps. Just don't like the GUI very much and it doesn't have a lot of basic modelling tools yet. When DeleD has stuff like lightmapping and Constructive Solid Geometry (which it will have in the future), it should be an interesting tool for most gamedevelopment teams out there. Actually, I hope it is interesting already!

@ Actarus: let's give DeleD its own forums here!

Use DeleD to get skilled in 3d editing! Visit http://www.gamefortress.com/delgine for more info.
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actarus
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Posted: 11th Sep 2003 16:54 Edited at: 11th Sep 2003 16:55
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-i've heard stories about Blender achieving the latter

It's actually a master at it.

-Actarus: let's give DeleD its own forums here

I gotta agree.

I for one have been talking for years about DBS making or approving an editor and maybe melt it in DBP to have it all in one application

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WebDext
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Haha I was kiddin about the NURBS.. not only is B-Spline modeling hard to implement it's hard to use and is not usefull in a low poly modeler.

Jack A.K.A Webby & WebDext
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Preston C
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What are NURBS???

*sees everyone stumble like an anime character when something wierd or embarrasing happens*


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Arrow
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Posted: 14th Sep 2003 06:35
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Anime character fall when someone sayes something increadablely stupid. The sweat drop appears when something weird or embarrasing happens, duh.





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MikeS
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Posted: 14th Sep 2003 08:22
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Quote: "What are NURBS???"


There like really flexible, easy to work with, primitives. I don't have the exact definition, but think of it sorta like clay. You start out with a nice big square chunk, and then shape it, and deform it around. Yea, not really for low-poly modeling applications like mentioned before.



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Mentor
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anyone remember Real3D? thats the kind of modeler I like, I can`t get to grips with vertices and faces and all that ..er...stuff, just give me primitive objects I can cut up with other primitives and stick together as I want, far more natural way to work (it`s the way I do it at work too ), that and a reduce polygons function .

Mentor.
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