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3 Dimensional Chat / Need some proof before commiting $35 for Unwrap 3D...

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Xander
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Posted: 6th Sep 2003 09:02
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It is about those dumb extra vertices that a bunch of programs put into my exported 3ds files, or the face normals that Lith exports with .x and .3ds files. Anyway, all programs that I use (Anim8or, Wings3D, LithUnwrap) all export .obj files with perfect vertex normals, no duplicate vertices, etc... I know you can use optimize model to remove duplicate vertices, but Lith won't save any vertex normals on .3ds files or .x files.

I want to know if someone who has bought Ultimate Unwrap 3D could convert an .obj file that I give them to a smooth shaded .3ds OR .x file with no duplicate vertices. If the program can do this, then I will buy it, otherwise, no. Even Milkshape adds duplicate vertices to its .3ds files that it exports. (Duplicate vertices are when programs add extra vertices at the same positons as existing ones, created bad shadowing on the object).

Thanks to anyone that will help

Xander
Bolt of Bolt Software Productions
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abandonstage
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Posted: 6th Sep 2003 21:57
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why not try out the demo and see for yourself??
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Simple
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Posted: 6th Sep 2003 22:15
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Maybe because the demo has the "save" disabled

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Eric T
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Posted: 7th Sep 2003 05:43
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You can still preview the Unwrapings in the Demo

Working on 4 projects 2 RPG(programming texturing and 3d map), 1 3rd person shooter (Programming), and a special project.
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Flashing Blade
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Posted: 7th Sep 2003 17:54
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have u got milkshape bolt?
if u have i think u can weld all the vertices back together - but i not very clued up on 3D stuff - u could try it.
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Xander
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Posted: 8th Sep 2003 00:20
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The demo disables all saving. Because of this, you can't see if it puts in the extra vertices when saving .3ds files. I do have the demo.

I have some time left on my demo of Milkshape, too. It has the same problem. When you save a .3ds file, it puts in some extra vertices to make the bad shadowing problem (usually creates these lines on the edges of spheres and cylinders. Dark on one side, light on the other.). You can then open the .3ds file back up, and re-weld the vertices. Yeah, it looks fine. Now try saving it again. The program just puts in some extra vertices just where they were before. How annoying!!!

Xander - Bolt Software

"Make your words soft and tender, you may have to eat them tomorrow" -Anonymous
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Simple
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Posted: 8th Sep 2003 01:07
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Once you have sorted out all of your UV's + re-welded if necessary ..... export as .X format out of Milkshape.

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AlecM
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Posted: 8th Sep 2003 07:15
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tolerance weld? If i understand properly thats all you need to do.

Goto http://www.shellshockede.com
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actarus
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Posted: 8th Sep 2003 17:57 Edited at: 8th Sep 2003 17:58
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Makes me laugh how some people will tell you:'Unwrap3D has much more features' and yet,ignore the ones in Lithunwrap itself.

Duplicate Vertice/UVW's?

No problems;

Just 'select all',Tools>Optimise Model and make sure the Remove Unused Vertice is checked.


Simple.

PS: Don't export to .x between software unless you really have to...Try using Obj or 3ds instead.

Everyobdy wants to be loved,But no one loves everybody...

HEY!!! I'm the one who had 'Cyberspace' in his location on the older black forums,shame on you Rich j/k
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Xander
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Posted: 9th Sep 2003 06:28
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Thanks for all of the suggestions. I just don't think you guys totally understand, sorry if I seem annoying, but this it totally true.

-Yeah, "Optimize Model" command in LithUnwrap works perfect. Until you try to get the perfect looking model back out of Lith. .3ds files and .x files both get exported with face normals. Very bad. .obj files export perfect, but there is no program that will convert those back to .3ds or .x without any duplicate vertices or messed up uv coordinates.

-I can re-weld the vertices in Milkshape. The problem is when saving. If I save in .3ds or .x it still creates duplicate vertices. Save in .obj file. Now try to get it to .3ds or .x

Is there any solution to my problems??? I know for a fact that others have this problem, they just don't notice the duplicate vertices. I am very picky about the look of my models.

Xander - Bolt Software

"Make your words soft and tender, you may have to eat them tomorrow" -Anonymous
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actarus
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Posted: 9th Sep 2003 15:04 Edited at: 9th Sep 2003 15:04
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-3ds files and .x files both get exported with face normals.

Do you mean inverted normals?Probably not as the operation to correct it is quite easy,it just depend on the software.


-I can re-weld the vertices in Milkshape. The problem is when saving. If I save in .3ds or .x it still creates duplicate vertices

One question;After re-opening in ms3d and saving to .x,in what program does those duplicates show??...and why do you need opening the mesh again in it before sending to db.

Don't use .x between programs...Yep,that could surely have helped if the Modeling tips thread would've been made sticky.(it is said in there)

Minimize the exportations between creation steps.

Everyobdy wants to be loved,But no one loves everybody...

HEY!!! I'm the one who had 'Cyberspace' in his location on the older black forums,shame on you Rich j/k
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Xander
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Posted: 11th Sep 2003 05:39
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Yup, I understand not using .x inbetween programs. I use .obj files between programs, they are perfect.

By "face normals" I mean it uses flat shading. You can then re-weld the vertices, but you still can't save it to look good in the .3ds or .x format.

All right, to clear some things up I am going to explain the entire process that I go through to create a model:

1- Design a new object in Anim8or. I then export it as a .3ds object (it has no texturing yet, and Anim8or exports .3ds objects with some extra vertices)

2- Open the object in LithUnwrap and texture it. It then export it as a .obj file with vertex normals (it is both smooth shaded and texutred, but in the obj format)

3- Open the textured .obj model in Wings 3D and then save it as a .3ds file. (this final object is textured and smooth shaded, but it has some extra vertices, making it look bad)

Note: smooth shaded means vertex normals. Flat shaded means face normals

I hope this makes my situation more clear. I will put up some pictures if I need to.

Xander - Bolt Software

"Make your words soft and tender, you may have to eat them tomorrow" -Anonymous
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wednesday
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Posted: 11th Sep 2003 07:11
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I've been trialling wings(modelling)-milkshape(grouping,editing)-lithunwrap-character fx and have had none of the problems you speak of.

I've been exporting from wings as *.obj, and from milkshape to lith as *.ms3d file, and then from lith as *.obj.

There are probably other ways of doing it but this seems ok to me.

I wonder whether the problem is in the initial anim8or file.
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actarus
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Posted: 11th Sep 2003 15:46 Edited at: 11th Sep 2003 15:48
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I thought there were no difference between flat and smooth,only that the gouraud/phong angle threshold makes them visually different.I may be wrong though


Yes,Lithunwrap will perfectly read ms3d files,that's what I used to do also.

I think the .3ds support is rather buggy with wings3D but to be honest,I don't use this format anymore so I can,t really tell.

From wings3D,it is most recommended to export as an obj,you do not need to export as 3ds as my guess is you still need to animate it,unless it's static,then you'd need to re-convert it using either lithunwrap,which exports .x textured objects nicely to DB,or use a convertor such as Deep Exploration...

Maybe keep an eye on VanMesh by(you guessed it)Van-B,that may help you get it done right,I think it can weld vertice,check it out.

Everyobdy wants to be loved,But no one loves everybody...

HEY!!! I'm the one who had 'Cyberspace' in his location on the older black forums,shame on you Rich j/k
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Xander
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Posted: 17th Sep 2003 21:04
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Good thinking megadumb
I am probably having all of these problems because I first created all of my models in Anim8or, and it is not the most perfect 3d modeler.

Here is my decision:
I will buy Milkshape 3D, not Unwrap3D. I am going to rebuild and redesign all my objects (they need better detail anyway

What do you think?

Xander - Bolt Software

"Make your words soft and tender, you may have to eat them tomorrow" -Anonymous
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Xander
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Posted: 18th Sep 2003 21:24
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Gol darn it
I realized that I still have a couple weeks on my Milkshape demo. So I tried to create a simple model and export it to be able to use in DarkBasic. Very simple procedure.

-I created a simple sphere in Milkshape and exported it as a .3ds file to make sure there were no extra vertices. I opened it up in LithUnwrap and there are still extra vertices. Some other people must try this and send me a screen shot of their LithUnwrap viewing window.

I will post some screenshots tonight when I get home.

Xander - Bolt Software

"Make your words soft and tender, you may have to eat them tomorrow" -Anonymous
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Xander
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Posted: 21st Sep 2003 23:50
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Sorry I took so long, but I haven't been feeling so well this weekend. Anyway, here are the pics. This sphere was made in Milkshape, just a standard 12x6 sphere. I then exported it as a .3ds file and imported it into Lithunwrap and took a screenshot. Then I optimized it and it had about 27 extra vertices. The optimized model is the second screenshot.

See what I mean!!!!




I need some closure on this issue, please.
After seeing this, I am not so sure I want to buy Milkshape.

Xander - Bolt Software

"Make your words soft and tender, you may have to eat them tomorrow" -Anonymous
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Xander
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Posted: 22nd Sep 2003 01:08
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How come my pictures never show up! Is it just my server?

http://wave.prohosting.com/boltsoft/good.jpg

http://wave.prohosting.com/boltsoft/bad.jpg

Click on the links to see them

Xander - Bolt Software

"Make your words soft and tender, you may have to eat them tomorrow" -Anonymous
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CattleRustler
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Posted: 22nd Sep 2003 07:02
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NO OFFENSE BUT LET THIS THREAD DIE ALREADY!

Quote: "
It is about those dumb extra vertices that a bunch of programs put into my exported 3ds files, or the face normals that Lith exports with .x and .3ds files. Anyway, all programs that I use (Anim8or, Wings3D, LithUnwrap) all export .obj files with perfect vertex normals, no duplicate vertices, etc... I know you can use optimize model to remove duplicate vertices, but Lith won't save any vertex normals on .3ds files or .x files.

I want to know if someone who has bought Ultimate Unwrap 3D could convert an .obj file that I give them to a smooth shaded .3ds OR .x file with no duplicate vertices. If the program can do this, then I will buy it, otherwise, no. Even Milkshape adds duplicate vertices to its .3ds files that it exports. (Duplicate vertices are when programs add extra vertices at the same positons as existing ones, created bad shadowing on the object).

Thanks to anyone that will help
"



Quote: "
How come my pictures never show up! Is it just my server?
"


END IT ALREADY!
SORRY.

-RUST-
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wednesday
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Posted: 22nd Sep 2003 09:32 Edited at: 22nd Sep 2003 09:34
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This threads still alive and kicking I'm afraid.

Exporting as a .3ds model from milkshape->lith does seem to produce extra vertices, and they do produce visual artifacts.

Optimising the model in Lith did seem to fix the problem.

However I tried opening the same model (a sphere) in lith as an .ms3d file, and there were no extra vertices detected when optimised.

I hope this helps.
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CattleRustler
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Posted: 22nd Sep 2003 18:33
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-RUST-
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Xander
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Posted: 22nd Sep 2003 20:49
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This thread is not dead. (He is -> )

I understand that you can optimize the funny looking models in Lithunwrap. Now tell me how you get them out of Lithunwrap looking good in a format that is usable to DB.

Xander - Bolt Software

"Make your words soft and tender, you may have to eat them tomorrow" -Anonymous
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Xander
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Posted: 22nd Sep 2003 21:07
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Megadumb...

I noticed you said you export from Lith as a .obj file. How do you get your models in to DB?

Xander - Bolt Software

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wednesday
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Posted: 23rd Sep 2003 04:32
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My main interest in these programs is to get animated characters into DBPro, so I'm trialling export from Lith to Charcter FX (.obj), then to DB as a .x file.

Apparently CFX to DB works fine.

I'm still working on the best workflow (or at least one that works) the same as you, so I can't give you a definite answer about which way is best just yet.

You may want to have a look at JTedit as well. It seems this is being designed from the ground up to work with DB. I haven't had time to test it yet, but I will.

I don't know what the objection to this thread is, as I think this is a serious issue for shareware users.
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Xander
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Posted: 23rd Sep 2003 19:54
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Character FX and JTedit. Got it. I will check those out in the next few days and tell you what I figure out.

Thanks.

Xander - Bolt Software

"Make your words soft and tender, you may have to eat them tomorrow" -Anonymous
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Xander
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Posted: 24th Sep 2003 20:47
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Something I forgot to add...

In the debug menu in Anim8or there is an option for "split textured vertices." If you select this option then it does the annoying extra vertices. However, if you deselect it, then when you export it it does not include the extra vertices. However, it then adds exra lines to your UV map and distorts the texture mapping.

Any insight on this issue?

Xander - Bolt Software

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