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Geek Culture / Visual Basic

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pizzaman56
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Posted: 28th Sep 2003 20:46
i made a game in visual basic. isnt that cool?
Yian
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Posted: 28th Sep 2003 20:48
lets see it then

-john D.
Eric T
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Posted: 28th Sep 2003 20:53 Edited at: 28th Sep 2003 20:54
Congratolations, ao far you are the forum idiot of the day...

After asking about 3d Game Maker, you now claim to of made a Game in visual Basic....hahahahahah


So if you have made a game in visual basic... tell me what this code does(guys i know this is simple... but he should recognize this if he made a game in VB) :

Quote: "If KeyCode = specified numb Then
element.left = element.left + 30
Else
If KeyCode = specified numb Then
element.top = element.top - 30
Else
If KeyCode = specified numb Then
element.left = element.left - 30
Else
If KeyCode = specified numb Then
element.top = element.top + 30
End If
End If
End If
End If
End Sub"



Errrr i hopoe i did this right (been a while since i Programmed anything in VB)

A Dream is a Dream unless it is Real
pizzaman56
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Posted: 28th Sep 2003 20:57
it checks to see what button is pressed then moves element in the specified direction. however, you are the forum idiot. you wrote it wrong. I have been programming in vb for about 5 years, made games in it and wanted to move up to 3dgamemaker because directx is too hard

select case keycode
case vbkeyleft:
element.left=element.left-10
case vbkeyright:
element.left=element.left+10
case vbkeyup:
element.top=element.top-10
case vbkeydown:
element.top=element.top+10
end select
'i have programmed before sucka!
i can do more too. give me a challenge
Yian
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Posted: 28th Sep 2003 21:00
then why don't you want to show us the 'game' you made?

-john D.
Eric T
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Posted: 28th Sep 2003 21:11
Quote: "I have been programming in vb for about 5 years, made games in it and wanted to move up to 3dgamemaker because directx is too hard
"


ahahahahhahahahaha BS, You would be a rare case of human that would want to move to a Click and play engine from VB. Why not use DB if you have a understanding of programming already...


(PS i just tested my code... and it does movement like it is supposed to... lol so your correction is justa shortened version of my code, although i am not sure if yours works as i have not tested it)

A Dream is a Dream unless it is Real
Yian
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Posted: 28th Sep 2003 21:14
then test it and stop makin fun of him

-john D.
Eric T
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Posted: 28th Sep 2003 21:18 Edited at: 28th Sep 2003 21:19
His code worked in 6 but not 5 so it is correct for 6..


Now he asked a challenge....

Quote: "Private Sub DX_Input()
Const Sin5 = 8.715574E-02! ' Sin(5°)
Const Cos5 = 0.9961947! ' Cos(5°)

DI_Device.GetDeviceStateKeyboard DI_State 'Get the array of keyboard keys and their current states

If DI_State/Key(DIK_ESCAPE) <> 0 Then Call DX_Exit 'If user presses [esc] then exit end the program.

If DI_State/Key(DIK_LEFT) <> 0 Then 'Quick Note: <> means 'does not'
FR_Camera.SetOrientation FR_Camera, -Sin5, 0, Cos5, 0, 1, 0 'Rotate viewport/camera left
end if

If DI_State/Key(DIK_RIGHT) <> 0 Then
FR_Camera.SetOrientation FR_Camera, Sin5, 0, Cos5, 0, 1, 0 'Rotate viewport/camera right
End If

If DI_State/Key(DIK_UP) <> 0 Then
FR_Camera.SetPosition FR_Camera, 0, 0, 1 'Move the viewport forward
End If

If DI_State/Key(DIK_DOWN) <> 0 then
FR_Camera.SetPosition FR_Camera, 0, 0, -1 'Move the viewport back
End If

End Sub"



There is one Small error in this snippet..... can you find it (now i'm just bored so i'm gonna do this stuff )

A Dream is a Dream unless it is Real
pizzaman56
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Posted: 29th Sep 2003 00:50
go john! the only reason i didnt show u my game is cuz i didnt know u wanted to see it. with art its over 10mb so no anyways. i would learn darkbasic but i dont like that u cant change the window size. about the challenge. i dont know directx (didnt sya i did) and especially not direct3d. but i like the idea of fixing the bug...
....Next.....
Dave J
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Posted: 29th Sep 2003 05:32
Quote: "however, you are the forum idiot. you wrote it wrong"


Dude, there's more then one way to do something. Liquidz Snake's code works and I know an additional 2 ways to do the same thing again. You're the idiot for thinking you can only do one thing one way.


"Computers are useless they can only give you answers."
HZence
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Posted: 29th Sep 2003 05:43
Dude yo man dawg, you're all idiots and so am I. All of us know nothing, so let's just shutup about it.

SW Games - www.freewebs.com/swgames

Yeah, I know, I only have one game. Yeah, I know it sucks. But I made it! Me!
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 29th Sep 2003 05:48
although kids i'm very sure a topic about one of the worst languages to program games in is no doubt amusing to most of you, but it would be nice if someone explained exactly why there is a conversation about creating games in VB going on here ...

quite frankly VB is an application development program, it was never intended for games development and before anyone sticks in thier awe about how even Microsoft gave it the ability to use DirectX - the DirectX layer it has is pure inexplicit Multithreaded COM based for the hyper OO that VB has. They added the support because DirectX gives you full range to what Windows98 and above can fully offer especially with it completely replacing the Virtual Driver System for WindowsXP/2000.
You add to this the need for some programs to have Direct3D for rendering means (3DCanvas for example) ... even then it is hardly a recommended for anything too intensive, because VB handles the processor deeply inefficiently all of the control arrays are through COMs which are through COMs and this adversely affects the speed because you have to go through about 20layers just to do one sodding command.

In the end this leaves VB running at about 1/4 the speed of C++ ... and you even tried to get the shaders working within VB, god thats just a nightmare!
Add to this that DarkBASIC Pro has more language definition than VB does, i'm not knocking VB as a program because it is good.

but if you think its for games development then quite frankly your living a pipedream, the reason the engines for it appear to be able to give you faster access is because the commands your calling AREN'T in VB itself, they're in the DLLs accompanying the engine just like DBPro has ... so really they're executing at the speed of C++ rather than VB.

you add onto this the fact that VB require ALOT more Ram and Processing power to achieve similar results for anything - the pure overhead on that language it just ridiculous.

----------------------------------------

simple point being is we're not allowed to discuss C++ engine development here, and i don't think we should be allowed to have any of this VB crap here either.

HZence
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Posted: 29th Sep 2003 06:56
Well...

To state the obvious that's not what this thread was about...it was just some guy saying he made a game...but the two letters... 'v' and 'b' turned into a debate somehow...

Like I said we're all idiots and we all don't know anything so THE END

*runs away*

SW Games - www.freewebs.com/swgames

Yeah, I know, I only have one game. Yeah, I know it sucks. But I made it! Me!
Eric T
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Posted: 29th Sep 2003 07:03
Quote: "and you even tried to get the shaders working within VB, god thats just a nightmare!
"


Never Tried, hell i didn't even know it was possible.

And yes you are right that VB is (and should be used as) a Application development language, and not a game creation language. Of course i have bothered to learn implementing DirectX and Direct3d in a visual basic program, as it is good to know.

A Dream is a Dream unless it is Real
Dave J
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Posted: 29th Sep 2003 13:15
Quote: "Dude yo man dawg, you're all idiots and so am I. All of us know nothing, so let's just shutup about it."


Yo yo mah brudda aint down in da hood yo?


"Computers are useless they can only give you answers."
Van B
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Posted: 29th Sep 2003 14:01
I've made loads of screensavers, even a game in VB, but then I found DB and wondered why I was making life difficult for myself .
Truevision has nothing on DB BTW. If you can even get it running that is, when it does run it's slower than DB, and is far more difficult. VB is more popular as a 2D game platform than 3D.


Van-B

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CattleRustler
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Posted: 29th Sep 2003 19:27
As stated above by DivideByZero, if you want to program 3d games using VB/VB.NET get the latest TrueVision3D package. Basically it's a group of Objects (classes) wrapping the entire directX API for you (like db/dbp does) but you can use the visual studio IDE etc etc to write programs, no need for db or c++ if you like. It's great for incorporating 3d visual effects into applications as well, not just for games.
I urge VB programmers to give it a look. Note: TrueVision is COM objects, so .NET users are actually using COM_Interop dll's when using truevision. I think I heard somewhere that MS was working on a full blown multimedia package for .NET (an upgrade or something), not sure tho-

all just mho

-RUST-
pizzaman56
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Posted: 30th Sep 2003 00:38
ummmmm yah that made no since. the only reason i posted here was to spread the word that visual basic is by far the fastest programming language and is used by major game development companies to make games for ps2 gamecube- even xbox. i never meant to start a fight. you guys always want to fight about everything!
Preston C
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Posted: 30th Sep 2003 00:52
I personnaly doubt Nintendo or Sony uses a competitors language to make their games.


Dark Basic Pro has arived! I can feel the power!
ESC_
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Posted: 30th Sep 2003 01:22
"ummmmm yah that made no since. the only reason i posted here was to spread the word that visual basic is by far the fastest programming language and is used by major game development companies to make games for ps2 gamecube- even xbox. i never meant to start a fight. you guys always want to fight about everything! "

So...how much crack do you smoke a day?

"That's not a bug, it's a feature!"
"Variables won't, constants aren't."
ESC_
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Posted: 30th Sep 2003 01:41 Edited at: 30th Sep 2003 04:01
Divide by zero, it's not that anyone feels threatened, but it's just that this kid is a troll who cannot backup some of his inane statments, i.e.
"the only reason i posted here was to spread the word that visual basic is by far the fastest programming language and is used by major game development companies to make games for ps2 gamecube- even xbox."

"That's not a bug, it's a feature!"
"Variables won't, constants aren't."
Ian T
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Posted: 30th Sep 2003 02:22
Cobol is the worst languge to code games in

--Mouse: Famous (Avatarless) Fighting Furball
Read It: http://www.angryflower.com/itsits.gif
Learn It: http://www.angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif
CattleRustler
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Posted: 30th Sep 2003 03:51
i have to post this then go back and read this thread.

@ PIZZAMAN56

For starters I AM A PRO VB PROGRAMMER and your statement:
Quote: "
ummmmm yah that made no since. the only reason i posted here was to spread the word that visual basic is by far the fastest programming language and is used by major game development companies to make games for ps2 gamecube- even xbox.
"


HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!
VB6/NET would be the SLOWEST programming lang for any platform, not that it is used, as is, on any plat other than PC - Who do you think you are kidding!!! Go learn a clue and come back when you're all grown up! HA HA HA HA HA HA HA - Lame! I love my VB but even I know it SUCKS as a gaming language---ROFLMMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

-RUST-
CattleRustler
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Posted: 30th Sep 2003 03:56
Ok, as I read all posts I realize that some n00bs think RAD and Fast mean the same thing... I would like PIZZAMAN56 to explain the difference between a RAD language like VB6/NET and C++, just for laughs...

Pizza, the floor is all yours...


-RUST-
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 30th Sep 2003 06:07
Quote: "ummmmm yah that made no since. the only reason i posted here was to spread the word that visual basic is by far the fastest programming language and is used by major game development companies to make games for ps2 gamecube- even xbox. i never meant to start a fight. you guys always want to fight about everything! "


when did VisualBasic become Codewarrior?
sorry to burst your bubble but the majority of game developers program within one of 3 programs all of which are the exact same language.

Codewarrior - C/C++
Borland Builder - C/C++
Visual C++ - C/Microsoft C++

the pattern here being C/C++ as these are the primary and technically only weapons of the professional developers world. (atleast when it comes to games)

PS2 & GameCube will use Codewarrior, there is no if/but/maybe's about it - if your program on those consoles then you'll be using Codewarrior as thats what the SDK is made for. Some companies code in Visual C++ then convert but it must always be compiled in CW.
For the XBox the DDK is made for Visual C++, if anyone uses any other language for it then quite frankly they're and idiot because the DDK is specifically setup for ONLY Visual C++ ... there are not commands for any other language.

For PC Development, generally DirectX Developers will use Visual C++ (for obvious reasons) and OpenGL developers will use Dev-C, Codewarrior, Mingw, Borland Builder or Visual C++
as OpenGL depends heavily on the end user system your aiming at, each language versio tends to favour certain platforms.

---------------------------------------------

Visual Basic is an application development language, end of story.
Telling us that it is used for games development is like saying that Java isn't ment for the internet - it's only ment for guiding missiles in Iraq.

(though to be honest the aim of the Patriot system i wouldn't doubt that they didn't use Java )

Arrow
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Posted: 30th Sep 2003 23:25
Quote: "never meant to start a fight."
Then you might want explain why you posted in mutiple thread, that had nothing to do with VB, in an insulting or obnocius manner.


DDR is the best form of exercise money can buy.
Preston C
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Posted: 1st Oct 2003 00:00
he doesnt seem to want to come back anymore


Dark Basic Pro has arived! I can feel the power!
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 1st Oct 2003 00:51 Edited at: 1st Oct 2003 01:00
Divide by Zero... on the point of command execution, remember that VisuaBasic is an interpretive language which uses the COM Arrays - which means thats rather than DarkBASIC Pro whos layering goes

DBPEXE <-> DLLCOMMANDS using single threaded operations just like C++

what VisualBASIC does is layer everything, so the commands you use are actually command objects for everything rather than token asm.
DarkBASIC and VisualBASIC are very similar languages due to thier structures and implimentation.

DarkBASIC Pro on the other hand is closer to Visual C++, especially on the fact that it uses single threaded commands ... i know i said it before but the difference being is this.

DBP you write something like



now when DBP compiles what it'll do is create an ASM Binary in Windows 32bit Executable format.

first it'll reserve the instance memory allocation (16mb), then it'll create the DxDevice register and store the pointer use it the access the DxDevice instance from the dll.
after this it'll create a new instance for the object and store its pointer register followed by the creation which points to the cube function. Then this is followed by a global instruction loop with a single float register and addition and then using the DxDevice pointer again to access the rotation matrix and adjusting accordingly.
for obvious reasons there will be a pointer to the Basic3D DLL and Core DLL so that the instructions can be access by the instruction pointer.

The way VisualBASIC would achieve the same thing however, is first you have the token layer which accepts and translates the commands on the fly. You then have the selection of the Core function DLLs, there are about 7/9 in all if i remember which contain the entire COM system for all of the instructions.
Ontop of this you then have to load the COM pointers and registers.
Next comes the Windows COM System, even if you don't need it - it will also be loaded.
After this the instructions themselves, now each com level pointed to is subbed by a '.'

so
Direct3DX.Effects.ExtendedMesh.LoadMesh TRUE,"Mesh.x",GetTex("Mesh"),1

that goes through 4 pointers just to finally get the function you require ... although the builtin function are useful they don't leave much is ay flexibility.
and DarkBASIC Pro unlike DarkBASIC is just as fast at producing internal calculations as a DLL doing it.

-------------------------------

[edit-]
not to be funny but personally i find the whole way VB works entirely is just inefficient and overly confusing.
like Python and Java, i know they can be good languages in the right hands but personally - i spend more time trying to figure out what is being linked to what and making sure that i know the object attached to the other object with little real language definition and a larger reliance on predetermined functions than anything else.

kingius
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Posted: 1st Oct 2003 19:17
Vb.Net does not work in the same way as previous VB versions. Like all .Net languages, VB.Net compiles to a token bit code which is then JIT compiled into assembly by the CLR. VB.NET is very fast, much faster than VB6 and previous versions, although string speed still sucks unless you use the string builder class.

That said, I wouldnt recommend using VB for games. There is nothing wrong with it, it would be faster than DB Pro, but its just not oriented towards that. I think that makes all of the difference.

Oh, and for all the C++ "LEET" kiddies in here, C++ is good but has one MAJOR downside - it takes a long time to build anything with it. Thats why commercial games have large teams of programmers (doing the job of what a couple of RAD developers could achieve).
CattleRustler
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Posted: 2nd Oct 2003 07:31
(agreeing with /0)
VB dots are slow??

Object.(property or , method/function or, event).value???

How is the "dot" slowing anything down? The dot is a reference to an object's subset.
Just curious.

Also this whole talk of "VB" and "COM" unclarified, has got to stop! VB6 and/or prior are COM, VB.NET IS NOT!

-RUST-
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 2nd Oct 2003 08:30
Quote: "how come the techdemo's that have been made in vb6 with that truevision run at absolutely stonking frame rates ? No matter what words or explanations you give will lead me to believe that what I see with my own eyes is wrong, and I do understand what you are saying and explaining how vb is slower etc.."


perhaps, but compared to the exact same DBP program or C++ its not even close to fast...
good example is to create a spinning cube in each DBP/VB/C++

although yes VB7 is MUCH faster than VB6 because of the JIT Compiler, the fact still remains that on my system a spinning cube

VB7 - 850fps
DBP - 1,250fps
C++ w/DirectX9 - 1,320fps

i mean sure VB7 is still fast, but the fact its still a token (aka interpreter) language as opposed to an asm machine code (aka compiler) language makes ALL the difference.

VB has far faster compile times though suppose thats one thing it has going for it in that respects, but really developing in it for games development is a bit of a joke.
It's good for some fun like DB is, but anything more than fun and just not worth it ... the extra levels of commands really put me off, in C++ you only really ever are working to upto maybe 3 or 4 levels.

Although the code is longer, personally i find it simpler to read and understand than VB's .this.that.something.else.another.thing (finally the function)

its just not good coding sense especially for larger and more complex ops cause you have to remember what .Op goes to what - too much remembering bleck!

kingius
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Posted: 2nd Oct 2003 16:42
That is complete rubbish. The more complex the program the more you compound the problem that programming in C++ takes a long time, you are exponentionally adding to the time involved in creating any program of any complexity by using C++.

Also, you attack OOP saying that it is slow. This simply isnt true. C++ is also an OOP language. The Windows API is OOP. You have no idea what you are talking about at all.

What applications have you ever built?
Van B
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Posted: 2nd Oct 2003 17:27
Forgetting OOP and all that other crap some people pretend to understand, the main difference between DBPro, C++, and VB is the level - C++ is a fairly low level language, DBPro and VB are higher level languages. Basically, the closer you get to processor calls, the faster the language, and the more complex the language too.

The lowest possible level is a raw binary executable, you can code in this if your Stephen Hawkings or something.

Assembly language, is a lot more complex than C++ because your dealing with the processor almost directly, moving stacks etc - takes a lot of learning and is just plain scary IMO.

C++ is far removed from Assembly, but is the preferred medium between usability and power, your dealing with data in an efficient way, in a reasonably logical language.

Basic's differ greatly, but they all rely on user friendly approaches and logical language formats. I consider Java, delphi etc to be closer to Basic than anything else.

The important thing is that it's not compilers that make programs fast, it's programmers - because low level languages like C++ and assembly work much closer to the processor and deal with interrupts and stacks directly so they are much more efficient. Basic still has to make allowances for basic coding styles, still has to convert your code much further down the 'level' into less optimised processor calls.

What I'd like to see in DBPro is a little Assembly integrator thing, so you could have a little tiny piece of raw low level code to do something mundane, like point in poly detection or even just a screen clear. In the old days, some processor intensive BASIC commands would have been coded in raw assembly, like SIN and COS commands for example - because they would slow your computer down a great deal, they would have to be fast - all the other commands would be coded in C (I'm talking about language like GFA-Basic and AMOS here).

The killer is the baggage though, even fully compiled basic is really bloated, in comparison - I've seen a little shoot-em-up game made in assembly that was no bigger than 5k!. The baggage slows high level languages down a great deal. If you could strip out a DBPro executable, get rid of every piece of machine code that wasn't required, so it was fully optimised, you'd have a much much much faster executable - but you can't so stop dreaming Van.


Van-B

My cats breath smells of cat food.
kingius
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Posted: 2nd Oct 2003 17:42
An interesting post that I agree almost entirely with, however, where I do quibble is in the definition of c++ being a low level language. It most definitely is not, it is abstracted from the actual machine its running on in a way that a true low level language like assembly is not. I once read an article on GameDev that likened it to a "mid-level" language. I think that is a more accurate defnition.
empty
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Posted: 2nd Oct 2003 18:04
Quote: "How is the "dot" slowing anything down? The dot is a reference to an object's subset.
Just curious."

They don't slow down anything during runtime, as they're resolved in compile-time.

I awoke in a fever. The bedclothes were all soaked in sweat.
She said "You've been having a nightmare and it's not over yet"
Van B
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Posted: 2nd Oct 2003 18:19
Yeah, I'd agree with that, not that I have too much experience with C++, to tell the truth the only time I go near C++ code is on GameDev when looking at source code for converting to DBPro. Maths stuff is quite easy to comprehend in C++ at least, and the thoery's are usually pretty well documented, gamedev is a pretty handy place for everyone.


Van-B

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CattleRustler
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Posted: 2nd Oct 2003 19:59 Edited at: 2nd Oct 2003 20:02
@Raven:
Quote: " mean sure VB7 is still fast, but the fact its still a token (aka interpreter) language as opposed to an asm machine code (aka compiler) language makes ALL the difference."


Visual Basic hasn't been "interpreted" since vb4!
VB5 and up have always compiled to asm executables

-RUST-

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