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Geek Culture / @Raven,Rich or any other harcore coder

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Yian
21
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Joined: 16th Jun 2003
Location: Nicosia, Cyprus(the Greek half)
Posted: 1st Oct 2003 21:12
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I have finally decided to give up on DBPro, due to the very bad collision system,I mean it is impossible or simply too hard to be worth bothering with,to achieve good collision detection with complex-shaped objects.This is essential in fast flying games or racing games.So, I am asking the hardcore coders among you who have knowledge about engines...
Do you know of any engines written in C++,like DBPro which could be good enough to serve as a replacement?Also please tell which has best collision if you can.Thanks(by the way I will warn that I am simply going to ignore flames)

-john D.
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David T
Retired Moderator
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Location: England
Posted: 1st Oct 2003 21:17
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Collision is not meant to be easy.

In any other engine it will be likely to be much harder to achieve.

Stick with it

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Yian
21
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Joined: 16th Jun 2003
Location: Nicosia, Cyprus(the Greek half)
Posted: 1st Oct 2003 21:22
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I know David but there also other reasons i want to change..so I'm still waiting for a response...I was just saying better collision would be essential...btw I appreciate your advice about how hard it will be but please help me find an engine because my mind is already made up...

-john D.
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Mentor
22
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Joined: 27th Aug 2002
Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 1st Oct 2003 21:45
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whats wrong with collision based on intersect object?

Mentor.
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Yian
21
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Joined: 16th Jun 2003
Location: Nicosia, Cyprus(the Greek half)
Posted: 1st Oct 2003 21:48
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could you please say if you know an engine because as I will say again I have made up my mind.Please read my previous posts for the answer...sorry but i really am looking for something else...if you could help i would be happy

-john D.
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haggisman
22
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Joined: 26th Aug 2002
Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 1st Oct 2003 22:01 Edited at: 1st Oct 2003 22:02
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Just because a bull wants to go into the china shop doesn't mean bystanders are going to give it directions to the door. Programming isn't easy, and from the looks of it it will only get harder if you ditch basic...

Defying the convention of an upright avatar since 1985
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Yian
21
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Joined: 16th Jun 2003
Location: Nicosia, Cyprus(the Greek half)
Posted: 1st Oct 2003 22:05
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I know that,I have coded with harder things than DB for sure...

-john D.
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lagmaster
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Posted: 1st Oct 2003 23:01
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if you dont like the built in collision. make your own!

lagmasteruk - lagmaster.net is alive! r.nash@ntlworld.com
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Shadow Robert
21
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Joined: 22nd Sep 2002
Location: Hertfordshire, England
Posted: 1st Oct 2003 23:08
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DarkBASIC Pro's collision system is pretty good and simple...
believe me its CHILDSPLAY compared to Physics & Dynamic engines suchas Karma, OpenDE, Tomak and Havok.

Using another language won't make it any easier, especially considering you have to cover far more data and understand the mesh your basing it around far deeper.

However this said, the Tribes2 engine is an LGPL engine available on GarageGames.com
There are also the Quake & Quake2 engines which are GPL

all of which are for C++
Aurora is another very majorly used Engine which is really a "you-pay if your-paid" engine, and its got alot of fantastic options now - the new Bridge-It demo on nVidia's nZone was made in Aurora

there are more engines out there than you can swing a cat at, just a case of finding the right one for you.
This said the physics system within DarkBASIC Professional has a planned overhaul ... the specifics aren't available, but alot is going to change, i believe that Patch6 is going to finally have per-polygon collision back (but don't quote me on that).
There are also alot of upgrades and changes happening to the shader system, some very important improvements as well as the already known low-level mesh operations.

There is alot planned really, and Kismet is finished ... i just don't want to release it because its only any use to people with a 1.8ghz processor or better.

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Yian
21
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Joined: 16th Jun 2003
Location: Nicosia, Cyprus(the Greek half)
Posted: 1st Oct 2003 23:31
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yes i will use DB as drafdting but only for the beginning...I'm looking at other engines now...thx for mentioning those...still looking...Havok?Raven it's being used for Max Payne 2!

-john D.
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Shadow Robert
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Location: Hertfordshire, England
Posted: 2nd Oct 2003 00:01
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i can list you atleast 35 titles off had that have used it ... doesn't make it good, just means its popular,
partly because 3D Studio Max's Reactor used it,
partly because Futuremark used it,
partly because Middleware bought out Mathengine earlier this year making them the ONLY professional option now.

Quote: "There are various other engines such as Tokamak or ODE (physics engines) which work with c++, vb and delphi.... The 3d engine I know of which can be used with these 3 languages is truevision3d..."


actually they're both designed purely for C, truevision hacks them for C++,VB,Delphi setups using Object Components - it makes them slow and buggy.

The difference in speed is quite apparent from tests that were displayed on Havok's site for a while when they were doing speed comparisons.

they ran the same demo of 300 cubes in a square collising with another cube you pulled around ... done on a Pentium2 400mhz
there were TTL (time to live/latency) and fps rates given for each demo where the cube was yanked through by a code as a demo and covered for 10seconds.

truevision3d using Tomak under VC++ had a TTL of 620ms and 10fps
Havok using C++ under VC++ had a TTL of 340ms and 35fps
Karma using C under VC++ had a TLL of 180ms and 60fps

although OpenDE is really the cutdown younger brother of Karma, it isn't complex enough for anything too decent enginewise and it speed is hardly amazing.
sorry to burst your bubble about truevision3d mate, but its a VERY VERY slow engine ... and when something makes Quake2 look like a speedy engine sorry that just makes it far too slow compared to what IS out there already.

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Yian
21
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Joined: 16th Jun 2003
Location: Nicosia, Cyprus(the Greek half)
Posted: 2nd Oct 2003 00:10
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I just loked at its site and it looks suspiciously like dbpro but no real showcase of games!that sucks...
@Raven:Since you know a lot of engines, could you tell which has most accurate collision?(I must from all your posts especially the HL2 ones I can see you really like Karma)

-john D.
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Ian T
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Posted: 2nd Oct 2003 00:38
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'I have finally decided to give up on DBPro'

...

'I was just saying better collision would be essential'

Kind of like saying you have a stomachache, and then later saying 'I was just saying I didn't like the food'? Or, to use a more extreme analogy, selling someone an empty box advertized as a computer system, and then saying 'I just wanted the money'? That's a pretty silly way to grab attention.

Pro's collision system is baby easy compared to virtually everything else, as Raven has said. If you think getting 3d mathematics to work in Pro is difficult, I doubt you'll find any other languages you can get results in.

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Rob K
Retired Moderator
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Location: Surrey, United Kingdom
Posted: 2nd Oct 2003 01:26
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@John

Drop me an email


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Shadow Robert
21
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Joined: 22nd Sep 2002
Location: Hertfordshire, England
Posted: 2nd Oct 2003 01:41
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Mathengine used to produce karma, who were bought out by Middleware who make Havok.

cool how a little irish company is now the worlds biggest provider of dynamics solutions eh
if you contact them i'm sure they'll have the comparision charts in backup, they used to have forums too but i'm again not sure what the heck happened.

Currently Karma 1.2.1 and below are no longer covered by licenses as Middleware only took the technology licenses to Kea and the 1.3.0 updates for Havok. (mainly because the old system was based on OpenDE so they didn't have the rights to purchase it with exclusive rights)

as the MathEngine site is down, and the legalities are still rough - although i can now develop using it freely (yay for me ) as far as redistribution goes i'm unsure.
Would have to ask Middleware about it, no doubt probably free to distribute provided you don't wish to use it commerically and i only distribute the PC version (not GC/XB/PS2/Mac) or the KAT but Unreal2 and Unreal Tornament 2003 both have the KAT 1.2

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Falelorn
21
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Joined: 19th Jun 2003
Location: Canada
Posted: 2nd Oct 2003 01:46
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Compared to Blitz Basic 3D, Torque, A6, GameBryo and few others, Dark Basics collision system is bad and difficult to use. But DBPro does alot well.

Im afraid I cant think of whos site it was, but someone had a DLL (I think or just a #include file) which made it fairly easy. Just search for collision in the pro boards. Was fairly simple to use.

Dont give up on DBPro, its pretty good, worth while for shareware games.

http://matedit.com/forums/index.php (other great DB forums)
Current Project - Legends of the Sword - On my WWW
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Mattman
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Joined: 5th Jun 2003
Location: East Lansing
Posted: 2nd Oct 2003 02:10
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Sonic made it i think

Got a knack for finding secrets??? Jingot Racing --- A new brand of Racing --- Only from Nightwatch Studios
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Ermes
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Location: ITALIA
Posted: 2nd Oct 2003 12:36
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intresting title "General Talk / @Raven,Rich or any other harcore coder"

you're kidding us??

simply you aren't good enought to made a math routine to ceck collisions.

there are a lot of games here, all have collisions....

dbpro is very powerfull, really.

no others languages have the collision command you want, you have to make it by yourself, like in dbpro.

dbpro is more easy in collisions than any other languages i know.

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Van B
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Location: Sunnyvale
Posted: 2nd Oct 2003 14:45
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Hardcore coders write there own collision .DLL's or functions - they don't rely on built in collision systems.

I'm not exactly sure what the problem is - ground height collision is childs play, line interesect collision is childs play, point in triangle collision is childs play. It's the setting up of your models and engine for the type of collision that takes a little effort - but there's alternative collision methods for DB all over the place, a good start is underwaredesigns.com.


Van-B

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Shadow Robert
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Location: Hertfordshire, England
Posted: 3rd Oct 2003 01:53
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there's alot on the net under LGPL or such, just requires a little digging - gamesutra is a good place to ask for them as those guys live off engines.

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