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Dark GDK / Bones and Limbs

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Matty H
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Joined: 7th Oct 2008
Location: England
Posted: 6th Dec 2010 17:34
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Hi, I just bought the FPSC christmas offer pack and I have a Bone/Limb issue.

I don't know a great deal about bones/limbs but it seems that the models I have bought, although they work great with GDK, it seems that their limbs are setup different(or not setup at all).

When I offset them they do not come apart from the model(they stretch) but they do return valid values for dbLimbDirectionX() etc. Oh, and I can't show/hide them indiviually.

Anyway, is there any way I can setup the limbs for these models myself in a modelling program or otherwise? If so, is it a difficult task?

Or any information on the relationship between limbs and bones and how dark basic handles them(internally) would be awesome. My main goal is to get them to work as ragdolls which will only happen if the limbs start behaving, thanks

fulcrum physics - free collision/physics plug-in for DarkGDK
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_Pauli_
AGK Developer
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Posted: 6th Dec 2010 18:51
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Quote: "When I offset them they do not come apart from the model(they stretch)"


This may happen if some vertices of the models limb belong to another part of the model. For example if you have a human body model, some vertices of the arm like the shoulder would still belong to the torso. So if you then move the arm limb, the shoulder vertices will still stick to the torso, thus resulting in a stretch effect of the arm (like the biceps and such).

Quote: "I can't show/hide them indiviually"


I once had this issue too. I guess it has to do with the bone/limb setup of the model. I think it only works if the limb you try to hide is a closed mesh on its own (like no shared faces, etc.). So far I have no solution except changing the limbs setup in a modelling tool...

Quote: "is there any way I can setup the limbs for these models myself in a modelling program"


For such task I use a combination of FragMotion (.dbo import/export, animating) and MilkShape (creating bones, preparing geometry for animation). I think both tools are awesome and affordable. If you then throw Wings 3D in the mix, the modelling world is yours
But remember, it all depends on practice. Took me quite a long time to get my first good looking complete character (geometry, skeleton, animation, skin) working.

Now the plot thickens, the fps decreases, and the awesomeness goes through the roof.
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Matty H
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Posted: 6th Dec 2010 19:57
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Thanks for all the info Pauli, modelling is not something I really want to get involved with. Although I would love to be able to do it but I have no time.

I may just reside to the fact that if the limbs of a model are not set up for dark basic limb manipulation then ragdolls wont be possible on them models.
I wonder if thats why TGC don't target dark basic users with their FPSC media, although they are compatible with dark basic but without proper limb setups.

I will just add that the christmas FPSC model pack offer is really awesome, the models are great and you get lots of sound effects and music too, its really good value for money. So as long as you don't need to manipulate the limbs then you are set.

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_Pauli_
AGK Developer
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Posted: 6th Dec 2010 20:42
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Quote: "I may just reside to the fact that if the limbs of a model are not set up for dark basic limb manipulation then ragdolls wont be possible on them models."


Well, I don't see the problem there. I mean limb manipulation should be possible in each case. Your problem is the streching of certain polygons because different vertices that make up such a face belong to different limbs? If you look around in games that have ragdolls, in 99% of them this stretching happens on purpose because it makes models like human bodies look more natural when deforming. Or maybe I just didn't really get what your problem was...
I had a go at ragdolls a few months ago and that wasn't really an issue (but unfortunatly other things were).

Now the plot thickens, the fps decreases, and the awesomeness goes through the roof.
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Matty H
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Posted: 6th Dec 2010 21:34
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Yeah, the stretching thing is not an issue, in fact that would help.

The main issue is that there are internal commands to override the limb matrix, I think they were put in with ragdolls in mind. I can't find anything similar for meshes, it would also be hard to set a ragdoll up if the user did not know what mesh was what limb etc.

I may come back and look at it again in the future but it would just slow me down at this point so I will leave it for now.

If you want to implement ragdolls in QuickODE then maybe I can help, I have them working. If you remember what the issue was then let me know.

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_Pauli_
AGK Developer
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Posted: 6th Dec 2010 21:43
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Quote: "it would just slow me down at this point"


Yeah, it was the same for me. Too much trouble at that point, it just wasn't worth it...

Quote: "implement ragdolls in QuickODE then maybe I can help"


Ok cool, but I won't get back to ragdolls in the next few weeks. But I'll be working on a little Inverse Kinematics thing in the near future (besides another small project that is just about to be released), so I could use some help there...

Good luck with the next Fulcrum release!

Now the plot thickens, the fps decreases, and the awesomeness goes through the roof.
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Matty H
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Posted: 7th Dec 2010 01:01
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Inverse Kinematics, I had to google that one and its very interesting. Look forward to hearing more about that one.

While you are here, are you still working on shaders? Have you noticed that hardly any games in the WIP section are light-mapped?
Games just look bland without any kind of shadows, do you know of any light-mapping shaders/techniques out there?
I know you can lightmap in 3DWS and mapscape but sometimes you need it on terrain also and for that I have not found any solutions.

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_Pauli_
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Posted: 7th Dec 2010 01:42 Edited at: 7th Dec 2010 01:45
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Yeah Inverse Kinematics is very interesting, I got hooked after watching all those alpha videos from an indie game called Overgrowth. Great work there.

Quote: "are you still working on shaders?"


Yes I'm constantly working on shaders. Over quite some time I developed a couple of nice and flexible shaders for some cool rendering. I already thought about jumping into the DGDK Open Source project with you guys to help you out with rendering, lighting and effects, but unfortunatly I'm a bit busy with my own projects. Maybe next year

Quote: "Have you noticed that hardly any games in the WIP section are light-mapped?"


I noticed that too and it's a shame because it's a cheap yet effective way to add LOTS of atmosphere to a game scene!
You were asking about light-mapping shaders? That doesn't exist, since shaders affect vertices/pixels appearence only in realtime and lightmaps always have to be pre-computed. That's their pro and con at the same time! They take the big power-eating process of calculating light away from the running game, but this also means that the light AND the enlighted objects have to be consistend (non-dynamic) during a running scene!
Lightmaps are added to the scene as textures, so they can be easily added to any shader!
I'm working on a global dynamic lighting shader for outdoor scenes with a directional light source that I'm going to use for my next big project. It affects everything, even terrains. But it's still work in progress...

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Matty H
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Posted: 7th Dec 2010 17:05
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Overgrowth looks awesome, I have been looking into the different ways you can blend animation with physics, its a very interesting subject and leads to very realistic results. I would love to add some of it to Fulcrum.

I really could do with a lightmapping solution, I may look into it soon, I'll lightmap the whole WIP board .

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