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3 Dimensional Chat / DOGA _ Is it the best FREE 3D program ever?

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Scraggle
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Posted: 16th Oct 2003 22:17
Having read the numerous posts from 'zircher' promoting the glory of DOGA I decided to download it and give it a try.

WOW! I can't believe that a program so good has slipped by me for so long. I am crap at modelling but my latest program needed some models of spaceships, which is why I thought I would try DOGA and I could not be more glad that I did. It took me 30 mins to design and create the four ships that I need and I am sure with practice it could be done much quicker.

Anyway before I start sounding like an infomercial I will get to the point of my thread - actually two points - the first as I have already done is to promote the vrtues of DOGA the second:

@zircher

Could you please tell me how to texture my models once I have created them - thanks.

Also, you mention in other threads that are a lot of other parts available - could you please tell me where. I would love to get my hands on more.

Finally. What are the benefits of L2 and L3?

Thanks
Simple
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Posted: 16th Oct 2003 22:22
DOGA !!

Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 16th Oct 2003 22:35
What the heck's Doga? and why don't you show us your ships?
NinjaNL
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Posted: 16th Oct 2003 22:44
DoGA isn't free. (well only the first release anyway) L2 costs 20 USD to register, L3 costs 40, or upgrading from L2 to L3 costs 20.
Scraggle
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Posted: 16th Oct 2003 23:29 Edited at: 16th Oct 2003 23:30
Sorry - DoGA is a 3D Robot and spaceship building program. Instead of modelling from scratch there are many parts available, you simply connect them together. It's as easy to use as LEGO!

I will upload some pictures tomorrow, it is late here now.

You can find it here http://www.doga.co.jp/english/index.html
zircher
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Posted: 17th Oct 2003 03:49 Edited at: 17th Oct 2003 03:54
Free is relative, Lesson 1 (aka L1) is free. L2 and L3 are shareware, but they are also fully functional for model making and exporting to several 3D formals. You only need to register if you want to make AVI movies.

As to the question, "Is it the best FREE 3D program ever?" No, but it is a great way to learn 3D modelling painlessly.

Adding textures to DoGA follows the lessons. L1 has only minimal built in textures. L2 allows you to select more colors and textures, but they are limited to only built-in palettes. L3 adds more materials and allows for the use of custom parts and textures.

I strongly suggest that new users try out L2 and the tutorials/help files that is has first. While L3 is better, its help files are not completely translated to English.

Side note: I'm slowly working on a translation project. You can
find a translation of the L3 Parts Assembler help file here:
http://zircher.iwarp.com/doga/

In L2 and L3, Team DoGA standardized on the SUF file format for its parts files. In L2, you would have to create your own part libraries by hand (not difficult, but there is a fair number of steps involved.) In L3, you can read in SUF files directly from the hard drive via a menu entry. Or, if you have L3 beta, you can load in new part libraries on the fly.

You can find my current list of libraries here. The are a collection of custom parts that I've made or tweaked as well as select parts from various Japanese DoGA fan sites.
http://mybiztalk.net/3d/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=8

As always, give DoGA CGA a try and if you have any question feel free to ask me.
--
TAZ
indi
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Posted: 17th Oct 2003 03:58
its hardly an effective modeller, there is no method to reduce polygons or uv wrapping. animation doesnt work and its a poor mans first starter kit for only a few 3d designs like ships and robots.

ESC_
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Posted: 17th Oct 2003 04:48 Edited at: 17th Oct 2003 04:48
It's not a modeler at all. That's like calling a click and point editor a programming language. All doga is is a bunch of pre-modeled pieces that you can stick together

"That's not a bug, it's a feature!"
"Variables won't, constants aren't."
Dave J
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Posted: 17th Oct 2003 10:16
I think you'll notice he never once called it a 3d modeller.


"Computers are useless they can only give you answers."
indi
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Posted: 17th Oct 2003 14:48
heres 20cents

zircher
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Posted: 18th Oct 2003 06:31 Edited at: 18th Oct 2003 06:35
You get out of it what you put into it. As an 'advanced' DoGA user, I also use Metasequoia to build custom parts or tweak existing parts (such as for polygon reduction.) L3 comes with a utility called the Objector Convertor, besides converting DXF to SUF files, it also allows you to assign materials and change the texture coordinates of a part. It had planar, spherical, and cylindrical projection modes. Which for a part (as opposed to a whole model) is fairly effective.

BTW, Animation works flawlessly. It simply doesn't export animation since it uses an external key frame utility. [No mesh deformation, of course.) Since I'm a war gamer/developer, I can easily live with that limitation.

If I must have animation, I design the model in DoGA CGA and then use Milkshape 3D for the final bits.
--
TAZ
Scraggle
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Posted: 18th Oct 2003 10:57
@zircher

I downloaded your additional parts from the links above but I don't know how to access them from within DoGA.

Could you help please.
Scraggle
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Posted: 18th Oct 2003 11:40 Edited at: 18th Oct 2003 19:06
Quote: "its hardly an effective modeller, there is no method to reduce polygons or uv wrapping"


Quote: "It's not a modeler at all. That's like calling a click and point editor a programming language. All doga is is a bunch of pre-modeled pieces that you can stick together
"


Quote: "I think you'll notice he never once called it a 3d modeller.
"


Exeat has hit the nail on the head. I never did call it a modeller because it is not a modeller. If you want to create your own models from scratch then there are many good programs out there for doing just that.

However, if like me, you are crap at modelling (or art work of any kind) then DoGA is a great program. And yes, it has its limits but it is not as limited as you might think. As 'zircher' said you can create custom parts but even using just the standard parts other things can be made. See for example my 'Home Base' model below.

All I am saying is; not everyone is good at modelling and for those of us that aren't there is DoGA

Here is a link to some pictures of models I made with DoGA:
http://www.freewebs.com/scraggle/doga.htm

I have included the link because I am not sure how to upload pictures but I will give it a try anyway. So, if there are pictures below, then ignore the link above.



zircher
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Posted: 18th Oct 2003 21:30 Edited at: 19th Oct 2003 11:31
On using parts from external libraries...

The parts that I pointed out are in the new library format.

A lot of it has to do with which version of DoGA you have. If you're using L1 or L2, you'll need to make a old format part library or replace parts in existing libraries. I can walk you though that if you want. If you're using L3, you can simply dump all the parts into your data directory (with or without folders) and load the parts from the add part menu. If you have the latest L3 beta, you can unzip the part libraries to the commonparts folder and L3 beta will pick them up automatically.
--
TAZ
Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 18th Oct 2003 22:18
I like the models that you have made, and I think that your screenshots look great! If you aren't an artist then I think that DOGA is a good solution to peoples problems. You can make a great game with this program, and you don't have to ask for any help with making models, so I think that TGC should look into getting a special purchase price on this.

Pincho.
Scraggle
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Posted: 18th Oct 2003 23:19
@Pincho

Great idea!

Do you think they will go for it?


@zircher

As I have only been aware of DoGA for a few days I am still using L1 and so I would appreciate it if you could 'walk me through' using the additional parts. I do however, have another question for you:
Can L2 and L3 be downloaded on a trial basis?

I ask because that is my interpretation of the web site but when I tried downloading L2 nothing happened. Although now that I have said that in my head as I was typing it would seem that if I had to pay for it first then I would go to a pay screen. So maybe there is a temporary probelem somewhere.
indi
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Posted: 19th Oct 2003 08:51
at the end of the day its creating model data for your use as 3d models.
any interpretation of that and your kidding yourself about what its intention is and the end result is.

however..

spend some time on milkshape or another 3d package and you could take a doga model into milkshape and alter its DOGA look to compliment your base model creation.

this will allow you to extend its feature set and change parameters that the original "whatever you want to call it" application creates.

zircher
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Posted: 19th Oct 2003 11:55 Edited at: 19th Oct 2003 23:20
For those that might think Indie is on an anti-DoGA kick...

What I think Indie is trying to get at is this: DoGA is a learning tool for 3D modelling, but it is not the final word. There are many fine tools out there that should not be overlooked.

The 'DoGA look' is really a hold over from L1. Check out the latest screen shot from my current project:
http://www.geocities.com/tzircher/tcom_gallery.htm

Yeah, they're DoGA models. But, adding some custom textures can make a world of difference. And here's something for those playing with DoGA to DBP, once you export the file to .X, it's just a plain text file. Feel free to change the image file names and/or update the textures directly. [When DoGA exports, it saves the .X file and writes out all the texture files as well.]
--
TAZ


PS. It's three AM local time. I'll write up that How To on making old school parts libraries for DoGA in the morning.
indi
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Posted: 19th Oct 2003 14:24 Edited at: 19th Oct 2003 14:27
I used DOGA 1 2 and 3 when i first found DBC but I was also dabbling with other 3d modelling applications at the same time, and yup i tinkered with making amadas of spaceships myself also. Not the extent you have taken it tho.

http://www.dbtoolz.50megs.com/shipyard.htm

However,

I wouldnt talk about using a shareware product unless I have paid for it to be used in a commercial venture or a shareware game.

Thats just a blatant rip off of the japanese authors work. It is worth its value to purchase for a space or futuristic game for sure but it doesnt fit every requirement.

It would be a compliment to your game to bundle the package as the ship editor if it was possible to create your own spacecraft, if that was the case.

Just because its shareware tho doesnt mean its freeware and can be handed around for a commercial use in your project.

IF the game is a freeware game and it had a link to Doga as well as a major mention in the credits then it sounds acceptible but its up the authors of the package at the end of the day whether that is ok.

[email protected]

Unfortunately tho it doesnt meet every requirement eg: animation and so forth but yes its a good way to fast track your own unit based lego construction models into a project. Even the doga people reccomend metosequia for making your own DOGA parts to extend it.


here is a link to a pricing system as well should you want to register
http://www.doga.co.jp/english/


You can clearly see theres a price tag attached to the product and I hope your not subverting it just because they offer you to view the product without many restrictions.



Id also like to point out that the shots above are some of the coolest uses of DOGA i have seen in a long time.






registration note ammendium


Registration(L2,L3)

Individual Registration

DOGA-L2 and L3 are shareware.
The registration fee of L2 is $20 and of L3 is $40.
(If you are a registered user of L2, you can upgrade to L3 with $20.)
The feature "Render / View animations" is not available till you register.
You can register by visiting http://order.kagi.com/?QWF.
When you pay the fee at Kagi (Reliable registration service), you will receive the key information (User Name, User ID, and Password) in a few hours.
In order to unlock the limitation, click "Register" button on the main menu and input the key information. Please use "copy and paste" function to input the key information.
If you have any trouble, please send an e-mail to [email protected]

Group Registration

We offer group registration discount for over five users.
But we accept registration fee only by international money order.
Someone of the group has to correct money and send them to us.
For detailed information, please send an e-mail to [email protected]

Scraggle
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Posted: 19th Oct 2003 15:47
Quote: "Thats just a blatant rip off of the japanese authors work."


I hope this is not directed at me!

If you read my previous posts you will see that I am using L1 which is free. I have asked if L2 and L3 are available as trials because I am impressed by L1 but I want to 'try before I buy' and I am very tempted to buy.

I understand that you are a moderator and as such you have a certain degree of power on these forums but accusing people of being a thief is a blatent abuse of that power.

I have read the licensing agreement for the use of DoGA and I have not broken that agreement nor do I have any intention of braking it.

I started this thread because I tried the FREE VERSION of a program that I am very impressed with and I wanted to make more people aware of it. It would seem that many people have got the wrong idea about a lot of things I have said.

To clarify: DoGA-L1 is free and that is the program that I am using and that I have been referring to at all times.
the_winch
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Posted: 19th Oct 2003 16:20
Quote: "I wouldnt talk about using a shareware product unless I have paid for it to be used in a commercial venture or a shareware game.

Thats just a blatant rip off of the japanese authors work. It is worth its value to purchase for a space or futuristic game for sure but it doesnt fit every requirement."


Thats up to the author of the software to define in the licence agreement. If they don't say that the shareware version can't be used to create for shareware of commercial use then it can.

I don't see how using the software as the authors wishes is a blatent rip off.
indi
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Posted: 19th Oct 2003 17:14 Edited at: 19th Oct 2003 17:23
If you read into my post unto yourself then thats your problem, Im making it clear what is required of the packages usage. There shouldnt be an issue if you dont have a problem with what you use or how your moral compass works.

I dont see your name in my post.

You can try to read into what I say, I dont care, some of you are too tender for the outside world.

Copyright issues are there for a reason regardless if its 3dstudio max or DOGA.

This website doesnt condone the use of illegal use of software. Just be aware of what your using and its agreements.

I couldnt give two rats what you use, it doesnt affect me one iota.

It will affect you tho in the long run if you plan seriously to go commercial. Sure you may get away with it for a certain time but someones going to ask you or look into it when or if it becomes popular enoough.

I dont get paid to help out here and I didnt set the rules I just abide by them and make people aware of them if they are heading down the wrong direction. Read it any way you see fit kids.


On the flipside ID hate to see a lot of work goto waist if you wanted to go commercial. I nearly suffered a similar fate with someone who forgot to tell me 18 months down the track about his not so commercial version of a high end 3d package.

Try to see the cup is half full and take my advice as something positive. Reading into things is like "you looking at me?" attitude.

Btw if you were going to spend $40 id look at comparing milkshape and character FX for a similar price with more options. To them there own tho.

Scraggle
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Posted: 19th Oct 2003 18:41
@indi

Quote: "There shouldnt be an issue if you dont have a problem with what you use or how your moral compass works.
"


Quote: "This website doesnt condone the use of illegal use of software. Just be aware of what your using and its agreements."



You have very narrow minded views.

You have clearly made up your mind that because something is shareware everyone except you is going to use the product without registering.

And then to preach about the rules of shareware to everyone, who I must point out, have to agree to these terms before installing, is very patronising.

Quote: "Read it any way you see fit kids.
"

There are not any words strong enough to explain how patronising calling people kids is.

I'm 33 and I really don't take kindly to being called a child and a thief!

OK so you don't get paid for what you do here but I think it is a disgrace that you are given any kind of power at all if all you can do with it is insult people.
zircher
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Posted: 20th Oct 2003 00:10
Indie raises some valid and good questions. All of the DoGA products do have a license agreement. The general gist of their license is that they want to spread the education and usage of computer graphics and animation. Game development is a side effect.

But, to show that they condone it on general principles, they even include links to game deve sites on their main English page.

The license says you can not use the parts to make your own parts primitive library and sell that. You can use the parts to make models, distribution of the models and their usage in a game is not resticted for demos and freeware. If you want to use DoGA to make a commercial title, all you have to do is send an e-mail to [email protected] and ask their permission. So far, I've never hear of them turning anyone down.

Back to registering shareware, its a moral and ethical thing and thus a personal issue. With DoGA, there is no requirement for doing so, the license is very open about that. But, I find that supporting Team DoGA (via registering and word of mouth) is a good thing for me.
--
TAZ, unofficial English speaking DoGA support volunteer ^_^

PS. Yes, I don't get a dime for hawking DoGA. I mention it simply because it is a great solution for those than can not get the hang of low level polygon editting.


I also turned Mike on to DoGA as well...
http://home.comcast.net/~mikemccloy1/mships.html

Some of Chris Duke's DoGA models make me look like a hack.
http://home.comcast.net/~mikemccloy1/chris.html
zircher
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Posted: 20th Oct 2003 00:12 Edited at: 20th Oct 2003 08:28
Still working on that old school part library tutorial... Too much multi-tasking on my part.

[EDIT] Foo, I had a real nice one wrote up from a while back and I can't find it anywhere. I guess I'll have to write one up from scratch. Sigh, sorry about the delay. I need to do that since it is a fairly common question for folks that have mastered L1 and L2 and want more parts but are not ready to move on to L3.
--
TAZ
zircher
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Posted: 20th Oct 2003 21:22
Check out http://zircher.iwarp.com/doga/library.htm for a tutorial on how to make your own parts library.

Sorry about the delay on that, but I had to recreate it from scratch. If you all have any questions, feel free to ask.
--
TAZ
Scraggle
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Posted: 20th Oct 2003 23:32
Thanks zircher - I'll look now
guru of boredom
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Posted: 19th Nov 2003 05:38
can you texture or UV map objects with L1 or do you need L3 to do that? If you need L3 will it do that without registering? i have only had L1 for a few days and i love it for spaceships and robots!

we are not outnumbered! we are just in a target rich enviroment!
P4 2.4 ghz 120 GB 256 mb GeForce4
zircher
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Posted: 19th Nov 2003 15:32
You can download L3 and it is fully functional except for rendering movies. [You can even design movies with it, just not render them.]

Part of L3 ia a tool called the Object Convertor, it can reassign UV projections for SUF parts.
--
TAZ

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