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DarkBASIC Discussion / Window 7 Directx problem

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detran
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Posted: 8th Sep 2011 07:55
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when i got a new computer iit had windows 7 on it
i went to microsoft and downloaded the latest direct x
but whenever i try to open a program that requires direct x there is an error that says direct x is missing from my computer
how do i fix this??

sincerely detran
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Latch
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Posted: 26th Sep 2011 02:58 Edited at: 4th Oct 2011 16:25
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You may need to install directx 9.0c - this is not the latest direct x but I think it is required for DB. I think you can have both versions installed.

EDIT:

Here is a link from microsoft trouble shooting some direct x problems including installing direct x 9 on windows 7.

Windows 7 directx trouble shooting

Enjoy your day.
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Fluffy Rabbit
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Posted: 28th Sep 2011 00:17
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@Latch-

You, of all people, know that DarkBASIC Classic does not call upon a specific version of DirectX, but rather uses functions found in versions of DirectX up to 8.1. Version 9.0c only applies to DarkBASIC Pro.
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Latch
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Posted: 28th Sep 2011 04:27
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@Fluffy Rabbit

Quote: "You, of all people, know that DarkBASIC Classic does not call upon a specific version of DirectX, but rather uses functions found in versions of DirectX up to 8.1. Version 9.0c only applies to DarkBASIC Pro."


9.0c should contain the necessary files for backward compatibility including directx 7 and 8.1. It also seems that many games and such still require direct x 9 so having it installed on a windows 7 machine seems to be necessary in many cases.

@detran
A search on the internet may reveal a better picture of the dependence and whether or not it applies to you. But, directx 10 and 11 are not backward compatible from what I understand thus the necessity of installing direct x 9.0c as well for many games and apps that require it.

Quote: "but whenever i try to open a program that requires direct x there is an error that says direct x is missing from my computer
"


Enjoy your day.
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Fluffy Rabbit
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Posted: 28th Sep 2011 23:58 Edited at: 29th Sep 2011 00:06
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@Latch-

If what you say is true, then it will soon become necessary to switch to pure software rendering for full compatibility. If such is the case, then I am on board. However, what about the DarkBASIC users?

DarkBASIC Classic uses DirectX 8.1. DarkBASIC Pro uses DirectX 9.0c, but the newest versions of windows' newest version of DirectX 9 is DirectX 9, not DirectX 9.0c.

Do you see the problem?

EDIT: In case you don't, I'll spell it out for you: Don't use DarkBASIC Pro; it's not going to work on most modern (and old) computers. DarkBASIC Classic will always be more compatible.

EDIT 2: This is not one of those hate-filled rants, but rather a warning.

A fisherman called Frank lives by a lake of prehistoric fish. The store by the fisherman's house only sells modern fishing gear, which is too light to catch the heavier, prehistoric fish. So, what does the fisherman do? He goes next door to his friend Bob, who is alienated from the fishing business, on account of commercialism. Bob makes his own fishing gear, and gives some to Frank. Frank can now fish at the lake without the store, and the store goes out of business.
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Latch
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Posted: 29th Sep 2011 04:30
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Quote: "If what you say is true, then it will soon become necessary to switch to pure software rendering for full compatibility. If such is the case, then I am on board. However, what about the DarkBASIC users?"

Why would pure software rendering be necessary? Most graphic card manufactures make the hardware compliant to the latest direct x.

It's the applications and games that would be forced to use the latest hardware and API in order to run on the latest versions of windows.

Quote: "EDIT: In case you don't, I'll spell it out for you: Don't use DarkBASIC Pro; it's not going to work on most modern (and old) computers. DarkBASIC Classic will always be more compatible."

Well, for TGC it would be a business decision. If there are work arounds in place that make their products able to work on the latest versions of windows and it makes sense monitarily, then their products would be designed with that in mind. If it would take redesigning their products to be 100% compatible with the newest windows and direct x and there was profit to be had in doing so, then that would be the direction they might take.

DarkBASIC Classic was revolutionary 10 years ago. DarkBASIC Pro is more current and has a lot of features that make it more relavent (especially in the speed of executables). My suspicion with making DBPro free (as well a DGDK), is an eventual phasing out of DarkBASIC products. Maybe the emphasis would turn more towards mobile app editors/languages or perhaps game design packages such as FPS Creator. Though if money is still being made on the DarkBASIC products, then they will continue to be sold until it doesn't make financial sense.

Quote: "A fisherman called Frank lives by a lake of prehistoric fish. The store by the fisherman's house only sells modern fishing gear, which is too light to catch the heavier, prehistoric fish... "

The store is trying to supply goods to the wrong market. Windows 7 has helped microsoft (MS) push to the side alternative operating systems such as linux. With MS in the drivers seat, and hardware manufactures right behind them riding on their coat tails, game design for windows/Xbox is going to use or be forced to use, the latest MS APIs and compatible hardware. The consumers that desire a point and click interface where they don't have to know anything about the computer is who windows 7 design caters to; and that is driving the market for the latest MS products and APIs (such as direct x 11 or is it up to 12 now?)

At some point, backward compatibility just isn't worth maintaining. There are some really great programs and games that were written on 16 bit architecture. Though these programs were fantastic in their own right, they won't run on 64 bit architecture. Making them compatible would be a whole other process and just not worth it when there are 64 bit or 32 bit apps available that do similar or the same function(s). Those 16 bit programs just have to be left to die or they are run in an emulator or on an old machine. So it's a trade off - what can one live with? The 16 bit apps and games they loved, or whatever 64 bit (and 32 bit still) stuff is out now (soon to be 128 bit no doubt)?

Enjoy your day.
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Fluffy Rabbit
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Posted: 30th Sep 2011 04:59 Edited at: 30th Sep 2011 05:00
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@Latch-

It's a lot to wrap my head around. Let me get this straight. You're saying that:

- It would not be financially viable for TGC to update DarkBASIC to the very latest Windows API

and

- The very latest version of Windows is targeted at people who like an easy point-and-click interface.

I don't know about point-and-click, but that about describes DarkBASIC, but then you go on to say:

- TGC may focus on actual point-and-click products like AppGameKit and FPSC.

If anything, that's good news to me. I mean, simplifying the development is what modern computer technology is all about.

How you put it makes it sound like TGC is in the right and Microsoft is in the wrong (or a grey area).

You know what I think? I think they're both wrong. I think that on top of being simpler to use, faster to develop, more feature-rich, nicer, all that good stuff--

Software should be free. There, I said it. All software (besides software involving other media, such as games and movie players) should be free.

After all, in the spirit of making everything easier, why do you alienate the people who don't have money? Why make it harder for free software developers, small businesses, and kids to develop software? I'm a kid. I may not be in school right now, but I'm a kid. I'm a kid with a bad temper.

I'm a kid who doesn't want to feel alienated by my big bro TGC when the latest, coolest thing comes out and I can't have it. My uncle Sam is soon going to pay back the money he borrowed from me, but my big brother doesn't seem to understand that I don't have the money right now. OK, so I may have stolen a few bucks out of big brother's wallet, but I can't pay him back until my uncle pays me back.

Do you understand? TGC needs to support free software developers by making a few free software products that will ease our worries and our money troubles. I have never purchased a TGC product, because I have never seen one in the store, but I sure as hell have downloaded them. I've been using DarkBASIC for 3 years, which may not be as long as some people, but in that time I have done so much with it, I feel that I "know" DarkBASIC. I also feel it is safe to assume that if I know DarkBASIC, I know TGC.

The spirit of TGC is making game development easier for little kids. Its shiny buttons and bright colors appeal to students from preschool all the way up through middle school. My childish imagination has run wild making cubes and spheres and cones and other shapes. I have made grassy fields and moving clouds and people that walk and plastic bricks that stack and bullets that shoot and all kinds of stuff. I am such a good friend of TGC, in fact, that I would like to ask a favor:

Make DarkBASIC Classic free. In fact, you could just release the source code.
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Latch
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Posted: 30th Sep 2011 06:16
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Quote: "- It would not be financially viable for TGC to update DarkBASIC to the very latest Windows API"

No, I'm saying that if its worth it for TGC to update it, then they will.

Quote: "- The very latest version of Windows is targeted at people who like an easy point-and-click interface.

I don't know about point-and-click, but that about describes DarkBASIC, but then you go on to say:

- TGC may focus on actual point-and-click products like AppGameKit and FPSC.

If anything, that's good news to me. I mean, simplifying the development is what modern computer technology is all about."

You're paraphrasing a bit, but that's ok.
I'm saying Windows has a very strong influence on how people want to use their computers. This influence will determine a lot of the products that are made and offered. This may lessen the demand of the use of language based application/game designers such as somethingBASIC and increase the desire for a point and click only interface.

Quote: "How you put it makes it sound like TGC is in the right and Microsoft is in the wrong (or a grey area)."

I wasn't making an ethical or best business practice argument - nobody's in the right or wrong but companies have to function by getting an income; making money.

Quote: "After all, in the spirit of making everything easier, why do you alienate the people who don't have money? Why make it harder for free software developers, small businesses, and kids to develop software? I'm a kid. I may not be in school right now, but I'm a kid. I'm a kid with a bad temper."

No one's alienating anyone. Business is business. TGC is a company. Now perhaps advertisements (for others) generate enough income that they don't have to sell anything but a company cannot be maintained without earnings. Small businesses want to make money too. You don't think that if a small business could use public domain software (free) to create something sellable (not free) that they would? And then they would sell it. Open source is great for learning and sharing, but you can't sustain a business by giving away your product unless that leads to an income.

Linux is pretty much based on open source software. But do you know lots of big banks and companies use linux stuff to cut their own costs - eliminate all kinds of overhead? There's no magical world of free software where there is no cost. The overhead that the banks or the companies cut, isn't reflected in a reduction in prices, it just goes into profits. And if the profits are interfered with, then that cost is passed back on to the customer. So in reality, free software, costs someone somewhere something.

Quote: "Do you understand? TGC needs to support free software developers by making a few free software products that will ease our worries and our money troubles."

Part of what I was saying is they only have to do that if it is in their own best interest. The time and the money to develop those products has to come from somewhere.

This discussion is interesting but I'll stop here as this thread has gotten away from the original posters question.

Enjoy your day.
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Fluffy Rabbit
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2011 02:45
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Quote: "Linux is pretty much based on open source software. But do you know lots of big banks and companies use linux stuff to cut their own costs - eliminate all kinds of overhead? There's no magical world of free software where there is no cost. The overhead that the banks or the companies cut, isn't reflected in a reduction in prices, it just goes into profits. And if the profits are interfered with, then that cost is passed back on to the customer. So in reality, free software, costs someone somewhere something."


Before you leave this thread, consider this:

I dropped out of college to start a game design company. So far, that plan is failing, mainly because I can't pay the rent. How is one to start up a small business? My mother has been running a failing business for several years, and she keeps saying that it takes time for a business to stop losing money and start making money. Well, I would like to start making money.

I can't afford overpriced commercial software or employees. I'm not going to take crap from anybody. To get ahead in the world, you have to be really smart. Unfortunately, I'm not really smart or rich, so I'm getting nowhere.

It sounds like I'm complaining, but what if a big company like TGC were to give the little guy a chance? Why not offer grants to people who are starting small businesses? Why not release free SDKs? Why not offer classes?

It's these things that will help small businesses.
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abram_36
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Posted: 4th Oct 2011 13:53 Edited at: 10th Oct 2011 15:06
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I don't run Win 7 so I'm not sure what DirectX package you'd update with but my guess is that an update is needed.cheap cialis and also poker for money
You will not be able to install DX9.0C only because you can not "downgrade" DirectX, even with the same major version (meaning you can't install a June release of DX10 over an October release).

cheap cialis or go poker for money
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Latch
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Posted: 4th Oct 2011 16:23
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Here is a link from microsoft trouble shooting some direct x problems including installing direct x 9 on windows 7.

Windows 7 directx trouble shooting

I shall also post this link above in my first post.

Enjoy your day.
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Fluffy Rabbit
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Posted: 5th Oct 2011 01:45
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@Latch-

Do you realize that this officially means that DarkBASIC Pro is not supported on Windows 7?
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Latch
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Posted: 6th Oct 2011 18:45
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@Fluffy Rabbit

But it will run on Windows 7 with the proper work arounds; and that is the situation with a lot of software and games. Windows 7 has a compatibility mode to try and add backwards support to a lot of existing software.

This is where the software developer has to make the decision of updating all of their code to bring their product up to the compatibility level of native Windows 7 (soon to be 8) operation, or keep developing their software in the hopes that backward compatibility is maintained.

Microsoft doesn't want to isolate everybody all at once or they would lose their customers so they have to maintain a certain amount of compatibility. So there is probably about a 3 to 7 year window of solid backward compatibility where the developer either updates their software to the newest technology, or gets left behind.

I don't know TGC's business strategy but they most likely have a plan to stay in business or they may sunset everything Darksomething and start a new company with a new product.

But what does it matter? The world moves on. If you are really serious about game programming, you might try learning opengl which is basically OS independent (MESA on linux) - and you can even run it on old machines minus a few bells and whistles.

Enjoy your day.
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Fluffy Rabbit
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Posted: 6th Oct 2011 22:54
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@Latch-

Workarounds don't count as "support", and only Windows 7 Ultimate (or Business or something) has compatibility mode.

I doubt Microsoft will start a new company.

I have a better solution than OpenGL- SDL, Allegro, FreeBASIC, JavaScript, you name it. No graphics card needed there.

You need to talk to this guy Da_Rhyno. He's having similar problems to what I'm having.
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Latch
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Posted: 7th Oct 2011 05:57 Edited at: 7th Oct 2011 06:11
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Quote: "I doubt Microsoft will start a new company"

Not microsoft, I meant TGC could start a new line of products if they don't want to rewrite the DarkBASIC software to include directx 11.

Quote: "Workarounds don't count as "support", and only Windows 7 Ultimate (or Business or something) has compatibility mode.

...I have a better solution than OpenGL- SDL, Allegro, FreeBASIC, JavaScript, you name it. No graphics card needed there.

... He's having similar problems to what I'm having. "


I really don't understand what your point is. You want to use DBPro or you don't want to use DBPro? You want to use DBC or you don't want to use DBC? You're mad at TGC because they offer a free solution to programming in BASIC but it isn't up to date with the latest Microsoft OS? Do you think everything should be free and it upsets you that it isn't? How would your own game company survive if all your software was free? How could've TGC developed DBPro or FPS creator if they hadn't sold DBC, and then DBPro? How could they have afforded to make DGDK? That had to sell their software in order to make the company survive and offer new products. How do you think they managed to have servers and maintain a forum? The money has to come from sometwhere. A lot of their money now comes from advertisments and such so that allows them to offer DBPro and DGDK for free.

I'm not trying to sound harsh, I'm just not quite sure what you're not happy about.

Enjoy your day.
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Fluffy Rabbit
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Posted: 7th Oct 2011 23:40
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@Latch-

If you were saying that TGC would branch off into a new company, then I don't understand what you're saying. I suppose AppGameKit is a step in that direction.

How is DBC free? It certainly isn't, although here's what I was saying:

DarkBASIC Classic came out in 1999. Since then, The Game Creators have made DarkBASIC Pro. If DarkBASIC Pro is their cutting-edge product, then:

- How come it doesn't support DirectX 10 or 11?
- Why isn't DBC free?
- Why is there a free version of DBPro? Are they abandoning it?

Does it take money to develop a software product? Is there something I'm missing? I understand that it's hard to stay ahead in the rat race, and that switching to universal, software-rendered solutuons like AppGameKit is a good idea, but like you said, the whole "App" thing doesn't mesh with their original business plan.

Sure, companies evolve, but a software company like TGC should ease their own software along in a compatible path of evolution with their company.

Why make AppGameKit when you can make DarkBASIC compatible with the platforms you intend to support? Or perhaps 3D code would be too non-trivial to port to said platforms.

I'm not in a good enough physical location right now to fully concentrate on what I'm saying, but I think you get the message of what I'm aiming to say.
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Latch
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Posted: 8th Oct 2011 02:40
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Quote: "How is DBC free? It certainly isn't..."

I never said DBC and was implying DBPro is free.

Quote: "Does it take money to develop a software product? Is there something I'm missing?"

Yes it does. There's the initial cost of the physical equipment - computers, monitors, keyboards, mice, graphics cards. Theres the cost of maintaining that equipment. There's a cost for electricity when the equipment is run. If you have a place of business then there can be leasing costs - if it's your own house, there's rent or mortgages to be paid.

If you are trying to do the marketing, then you may not have physical time to program so you have to hire someone to do it - that's a cost. The marketing itself is a cost. I'm not quite sure why you think there is no cost to developing software. Time, is a cost. If one spends their time programming and not earning money any other way, then what little money they have is being used to survive and it will dwindle to nothing. If they don't put that time into earning money, then the cost can be huge.

Quote: "How come it doesn't support DirectX 10 or 11?"

It could take a complete rewrite, which may not be feasible.

Quote: "Why is there a free version of DBPro? Are they abandoning it?"

Could be. It may be to draw new users in to sell other products.

Quote: "Why isn't DBC free?"

That's a tough one. It could be because they can still make a little money by selling it - and there have been a few commercially released games made with it so it has a bit of a track record. I don't know of any commercial games made in DBPro (not to say that there aren't any). DBC isn't a product that could draw in users like a free version of DBPro so why not sell DBC to the few that still want to tinker?

Quote: "Sure, companies evolve, but a software company like TGC should ease their own software along in a compatible path of evolution with their company."

We as clients don't know what's going on behind closed doors. There may be other software companies trying to buy TGC to eliminate their niche or expand on it. TGC may have deals to produce something completely new and different with Nvidia or Microsoft but they have to ease themselves out of the DarkBASIC gig first. We don't know the ultimate goals of TGC, but whatever steps they take is what they believe is best for the company.

You seem bothered by whatever you think they are doing. What difference does it make? If you want a different or better product, why not make one? It's not easy, but it's possible.

Enjoy your day.
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Fluffy Rabbit
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Posted: 8th Oct 2011 02:50
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@Latch-

I am more or less making my own version of DarkBASIC- that's what FreeGDK is. However, it will never be the same as DarkBASIC Classic. I want TGC to give it the old college try.

Anyhow, I don't see AppGameKit as a good investment for the company. They put a lot of time in it, but unless its syntax is identical to DarkBASIC, nobody will buy it. At least, nobody who's used DarkBASIC.

This is kind of my DarkBASIC love letter. I love DarkBASIC because it does what other languages are afraid to do.
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