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Newcomers DBPro Corner / I have a game idea but no knowledge to implement it.

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Koolmist
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Posted: 17th Mar 2012 16:04
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Hello all!! I have a game idea that I think will be fun for my group of friends but my limited knowledge of basic programming is 27 years old. Needless to say what I did know i do not anymore. I have ordered a book from amazon, Beginner's Guide to DarkBASIC Game Programming, and am eagerly awaiting its arrival. It's not expected to arrive for some time, and well, im impatient! I want to get started relearning, while the idea is still fresh in my head.

My idea is basically to convert a turn-based card game like pokemon, or magic into a pc based one, preferably over a network or internet connection so each player cant see the other players cards, until they are played. I know this is by no means a small task, but it has been an goal of mine to sometime now to do. Since my friend showed me DBP a couple weeks ago I have been trying to learn as much as possible, but have run into a wall, my lack of knowledge.

This is what I have, I have .jpg images of over 4000 cards to be used as the image when a card is viewed, sounds,sound effects, backgrounds, and video clips. What i need is some sort of template to lay my game out and start working on the individual portions of the game, the game board, the stack of cards,selecting cards, connecting to the another player online, and other unforseen programming needs. Also tutorials up the wazzo, so I can learn as much code as fast as possible.

Sorry my post is so long winded, but i am trying to get as much into it as possible, my computer is in the garage and its cold outside. Any and all suggestions or ideas would be greatly appreciated.

Koolmist

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DAEvo
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Posted: 17th Mar 2012 16:37
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Hello Koolmist!

Wearing my Lead Designer hat (I'm not a programmer and also new to DarkBASIC Pro), may I give you a very simple piece of advice:

Plan your game. Write a One Sheet, a Ten Pager, and a Game Design Document. Know how all of your assets -- sounds, jpegs, backgrounds, and video clips -- should fit together. Understand the mechanics and what you want it to do VERY SUCCINCTLY before trying to implement it.

This isn't to say skip the tutorials or studying Beginner's Guide... do all of that, but make sure you have a plan for your game before you just start implementing ideas and struggling with code. You'll have a better game and more fun doing it.

Good luck! The community here seems very helpful, so it won't be long until you get some specific answers to some of your questions.

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Koolmist
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Posted: 17th Mar 2012 17:52
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Thank you DAEvo for your advice. To be more specific about my idea I plan on actually making the Star Trek Customizable Card Game into a pc version. So I already know the game itself, I just don't know the language to make it a reality electronically.

Quote: "Plan your game. Write a One Sheet, a Ten Pager, and a Game Design Document"


Any ideas on how I would go about starting such a task? What i mean to say is what are the 3 things you just listed; One sheet, ten pager and game design document? My friend suggested getting several white boards and basically covering the walls of the garage with them so I can plan out each portion of the game. I really do appreciate how quickly you responded to my question and everything you have to offer..

Koolmist

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DAEvo
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Posted: 17th Mar 2012 21:44
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It seems that there are as many ways to write a One Sheet, Ten Pager, and Design Doc as their are games and designers! Honestly, your white board idea sounds like a fine place for the One Sheet. Whatever works for YOU and your team is just right.

My one sheets tend to focus on big picture components and is used mostly to deter feature creep (adding too much, even if it is too much of a good thing).

You seem to have a definite game in mind, one you already play on the tabletop. I would describe the flow of the game as you see it happening on the computer screen. Draw, write, brainstorm, and think about what makes that cardgame fun and how to retain that enjoyment level.

I would suggest Google for dozens of design doc templates. But, since you have the rules already written out for you, concentrate your efforts on sorting your assets and understanding how they work together. List your audio files, their names, when they are used, etc. Same with textures and art assets. Know what you've got and where you want to use it. That pre-planning and simple organization can go a long way.

Also, think about your Camera and your Controls. Play other digital implementations of card games.

Things I came up with (not really knowing the game you are mirroring):

You need a way to build a deck.
You need a way to shuffle that deck.
You need a way to draw a card (or two or eight). As in get in your hand, not draw an image.

After that... You know how it plays.

I'm no programmer, but, were I to script a card shuffle and deal, I would make an array with 52 items (deck of regular cards), write something to randomize them, then display the first five as my "hand" by linking the contents of the array with card images.

Again, the more you plan ahead the easier it will be to make it happen as you boost your skills.

Also, my friend is a Star Trek minor character and she sent me her card from that game! I'll look for it and tell you her character's name... she's a Klingon I think.

Good Luck!

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Koolmist
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Posted: 18th Mar 2012 02:37
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Quote: "Things I came up with (not really knowing the game you are mirroring):

You need a way to build a deck.
You need a way to shuffle that deck.
You need a way to draw a card (or two or eight). As in get in your hand, not draw an image.

"


You hit the nail on the head! That is exactly what I have been pondering for the last week. I would have to have 1389 cards for the deck simply because that is how many I have for Personnel and ships combined for all species unless I give the player the option of selecting the species they would want to play in which case it would have to vary depending the number of cards that I have each of them.

This is what I have currently for the main menu but I can easily adjust it by adding another page to add the choice of species.



Please tell me what you think, i added the end to each of the if lines just for testing purposes since I don't actually have anything for them to go to but . jpg images with the exception o n the quit button.

About your friend that's cool, I would like to know her character name, I only have ten female klingon cards out of 87 total ones, they never really used many females on the tv series.

Koolmist


[img]null[/img]

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Hodgey
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Posted: 18th Mar 2012 09:46
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Quote: "This is what I have currently for the main menu but I can easily adjust it by adding another page to add the choice of species.

Please tell me what you think
"

To be honest, this code (and style) will become very hard to keep track of, especially in a large project. The reason for this is you're currently referencing everything by numbers and the trouble is as time goes by, you'll forget which numbers reference what images/sounds. It may also be inefficient. A better way to approach this would be to use variables (with meaningful names) which hold the numbers used.
E.g instead of:

play animation 1, 90, 20

You could have:

Menu_Animation as integer = 1
play animation Menu_Animation, 90, 20

I highly recommend looking into arrays, User Defined Types, and then arrays of User Defined types. I'm hoping your book will be able to explain those if you're a little rusty.

Quote: "I have .jpg images of over 4000 cards to be used as the image when a card is viewed"

One piece of advice with this, don't load all of those images into your program at once as it may take a while and it will use up a considerable chunk of memory. Some computers may not be able to handle it. Try to limit the amount of images you have loaded into memory at any one time.

I wish you the best of luck with this project.

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DAEvo
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Posted: 18th Mar 2012 13:43
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Hodgey, et al., will be much better at evaluating your code. I'm no programmer. Really. But you've come to the right place to find some!

Also, best of luck to you! If I can lend any design help, I'll sure try. There is a whole design forum that will likely be my other home apart from the Newcomers forum!

[OFF TOPIC]I was wrong about my friend: She was the first female Vulcan on Earth in Star Trek: First Contact, and appeared on ST: Voyager. I still can't figure out her character's name. I have a pic, but it turns out it was from another show (I thought it was a Klingon, but it was a vampire from Buffy).

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Millenium7
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Posted: 18th Mar 2012 15:06
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i've read the posts in this thread and have already written all the code required, in my head. I personally don't go by the "getting things down on paper" route, it'll work for most people but not me. I've gotten to the stage where I can visualise exactly what I want, I internally break it down into segments and work on each. Each segment of code I write is dynamic and designed to handle many different tasks thrown at it, at any point in time

For instance, in your code example in the CheckRegion: section you are manually specifying co-ordinates, and it is only valid for one section of the menu. You would have to rewrite everything you've already put down, if you are in a different menu area. In my mind this is a massive no-no, i'll instead write a single function which will return what 'button' is clicked on. And then execute the relevant actions dependant on that button. I'll also include things like mouse click validity (mouse can only be 'clicked' once, must be released before allowing to be 'clicked' again, to avoid repeatedly clicking buttons unintentionally).

Obviously understanding the commands themselves is important. But i'd say far more important is how you structure your code, and that comes from your mindset and way of thinking, not your knowledge of commands and syntax. I've spent far more time thinking to myself "ok, so how do I write code in a way that would handle movement of multiple different units, all of which different. and if I ever add/remove/edit units in the future, not have to rewrite my code, it'll adapt to the changes by itself"
Than I have actually putting code down. Obviously it comes through trial and error

I'd start off by just going through the built in dbpro help and tutorial sections. Focus on gaining a good understanding of
1) Functions! the single most important/useful thing you'll ever use in DBPro
2) Array types, strings, integers, floats etc. And how they are declared (global/local, User Defined Types)
3) using 3rd party dll's (must be proficient with functions first)
4) for-next, while-endwhile, do-loop, repeat-entil loops
5) timer() based movement and timing

#5 is probably not particularly important for this project, but is extremely useful for most. Get good at those and you can confidently start plowing on
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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 18th Mar 2012 15:23 Edited at: 18th Mar 2012 15:28
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The first games that I ever wrote were card games. I have written BlackJack, and Poker (with Harry Potter, and magic spells). I also wanted to write the exact game that you are making, but with computer opponents, so that looking at each other's cards didn't come into it.

A lot of the advice that you are getting can be skipped, because it is your first game. I know this, because I didn't do anything apart from write the games.

You can do whatever you like to get the game working. Just get the game working.

My first code was pretty horrible, but the games worked. I was very pleased to come up with shuffle routines that really worked the same as card shuffling. If you listen to too much advice you will miss all of the fun of solving things on your own. Making games should be treated like a crossword puzzle. You know that you want the cards to shuffle, you know that there is a command called rnd(), you know how many cards you have. You just have to solve the puzzle... and it's fun.

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DAEvo
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Posted: 18th Mar 2012 15:35
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All advice can be skipped, true. You can always re-invent wheels and certainly plow through.

Make your own path, make a fun game. Learn all you can. Try things different ways. Impress your friends!

But, with all due respect to both Millenium7 and Pincho Paxton, games with plans get finished, polished, and published. I know this isn't the route you are taking since you are likely infringing on a licensed IP, but, in the real world of making games for a living, I don't hire programmers who can't follow a plan, organize and document their work, or who take the long route.

As is usual with the Internet, Your Mileage May Vary. They key idea you should take away is: Make a game. Now. Don't wait, just start.

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Koolmist
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Posted: 19th Mar 2012 01:18
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Thanks all for your input I really appreciate the advice.

DAEvo, I found an old movie poster from when I was working for Charter Communications, put it on the wall wrong side out and have started writing down a basic plan; including a rudimentory design of how the gameplay needs to go. I have an open checklist of projects that are required for the game to be completed, I will add to as I realize what else I may need. I came to agree with you last night around 2 am when I realized I was bouncing back and forth between figuring out how to display the cards on the screen and trying to read how to shuffle a deck of cards.. I was all over the place, not very productive. I have downloaded the DBProguide.pdf from the forum and am reading it as I go. I am just now getting through the part where it talks about reading and writing files, but that's not even half way so we will see in a couple days.

I just wanted to thank you guys again for your help.

[off Topic]DAEvo I went through all of my federations cards (457) and pretty much only have T'pal for vulcan females.



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DAEvo
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Posted: 19th Mar 2012 04:18 Edited at: 19th Mar 2012 04:20
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[Off-topic] She's T'Shonra from First Contact!




Just get to it, man! If it is too cold in the garage, draw in a sketch pad. Listen to EVERYONE'S advice -- there is something to be said for "damning the torpedoes" and just blasting ahead, design or no design -- even if the advice contradicts other advice.

Use what works, throw the rest away.

Best of luck. If you have any design questions, ask away. I've been lurking in the design forum.

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Specs: Intel i7 2600k 3400 Mhz, 16 GB RAM, GeForce GTX 560 Ti, 64-Bit OS

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Koolmist
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Posted: 19th Mar 2012 04:54
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Well I tried grinding through it with no set plan other than the idea in my head and the way the game is supposed to be played, and I was easily distracted(that could have also been the 17+ hours in front of my computer).. I did however accomplish some stuff in that time.. I made an Alliance page for the player to be able to select which deck they will be playing with, Bajoran, Borg, Cardassian, Dominion, Federation, Ferengi, Klingon, Maquis, and Romulan.. I also just finished reading the DBProguide at the top of this forum. I found it moderately useful as it tends to steer you away from the type of game I am hoping to make.

If anyone has card shuffling code I could look at it would be much appreciated. What you see in my snippet about for the menu was code I saw and then modified to suit my needs. It may be ugly, and inefficient but it allowed me to grasp the concept, modify it and impliment it. I am by no means asking anyone to write the code for me, if you already have it and mind me seeing it so I can understand how it works, it would be much appreciated.

Thanks in advance!!
Koolmist

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Koolmist
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Posted: 19th Mar 2012 04:57
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I am also wanting to learn how to make it so when you move the mouse over say a card thumbnail it will display a larger image, or over say the federation on the menu it will display thier logo..like a mouseover command.. much appreciated!!

Koolmist

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DAEvo
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Posted: 19th Mar 2012 08:14
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Quote: "If anyone has card shuffling code I could look at it would be much appreciated."


Honestly, I know NOTHING about the card game. But, if you have a set Republic deck (or whatever), create and ARRAY with DIM and use the RANDOMIZE command.

Hopefully a useful person will come along with better advice.

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Millenium7
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Posted: 19th Mar 2012 09:57 Edited at: 19th Mar 2012 09:58
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DON'T use the randomize command, it should only ever be called once at the start of your project with timer(). Randomise resets the seed, and will actually be less random if you keep changing it

Simplest method I can think of would be to use 3 arrays.
Pseudo code...



Array2 will contain a randomised set of cards, plucked out 1 at a time. And can now safely be read out in a randomised order, without having any repeated cards
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Venatusio
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Posted: 19th Mar 2012 10:50
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Hi Koolmist,

I am a noob like you so am going through the same thing, one of my big questions was how do I plan my game idea out, anyway...

I came across this document which looks useful:

http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/templates/video-game-design-document-template-TC030000466.aspx

It's a word document for planning a video game.

Also re: your poster on the wall approach, something I have used to great effect for project planning in the past is post it notes.

Break your task down into small chunks and write them on post it notes, you can then stick them on the wall. Being post it notes it is easy to move them around, add new ones, break it into as small tasks as you like, remove ones and change things quickly.

Just a thought.
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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 19th Mar 2012 14:30 Edited at: 19th Mar 2012 15:10
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You can use the above code, but each time you take a card out of the array you can put a flag in it....

ACE TWO THREE KING QUEEN
*1***1****0****1*****1

So in the example the three has been chosen already. So you randomly count along the list of cards. By counting along the list I actually mean, go through the list counting each card as you go, but not counting up for a zero. When your count equals the random number, you take that card. It will not take an empty slot, because the count will never equal the random number.

Rnd(4)+1

But you don't count slots with a zero in them.

Next time you take a card you drop the random number like this....

Rnd(3) + 1
Rnd(2) + 1

That's in the above example rnd(length-1)+1

Put a zero in the slot of each card that you take. Count along the array, and it will only pick the remaining cards.

That simulates a real card shuffle.. no repeats. That's the method I came up with about 15 years ago. I stick with it, because I copy / Paste it. But the method above might be better.

Although I did think it better that you worked out a method yourself. Because the problem solving will keep coming up time, and time again.

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Millenium7
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Quote: "Put a zero in the slot of each card that you take. Count along the array, and it will only pick the remaining cards.

That simulates a real card shuffle.. no repeats. That's the method I came up with about 15 years ago. I stick with it, because I copy / Paste it. But the method above might be better."


There's a problem with this method though. For simplicities sake let's just assume a deck of 9 cards from 1-9

Assuming you already picked 1, 2 and 3, then 4 has 4x the chance of being picked over 5,6,7,8,9
Why? because if RND() returns 1, 2, 3 or 4 then it will pick 4. Where's in order for 7 to be picked, it must land exactly on 7. If 4 gets picked then 5 has a 5x higher chance cause now it has 4 numbers before it.

You can also redo the check the calling rnd() again until it finds a random slot. This is an inefficient method though. If you have hundreds or thousands of cards then you could be looping for a long time to find a valid position, and it'll take longer each time you do it as each card disappears
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zeroSlave
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Posted: 20th Mar 2012 07:42 Edited at: 21st Mar 2012 05:46
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I see what Pincho is saying and actually had started typing the same thing before I read it.

Quote: "Assuming you already picked 1, 2 and 3, then 4 has 4x the chance of being picked over 5,6,7,8,9"

the number chosen would be 4, 5, or 6 (relative to 1, 2, 3) since it wouldn't count the first 3 cards. It would skip over them.



7 would be the selected card, because the first 3 slots are empty and they get skipped over.


8 would be the selected card. Because 1, 3, 5, 7 are empty and get skipped.

EDIT: Here is an example of it in action. Just press q to draw a card. Sorry for the quality and absence of comments. It was a quicky (that's what she said!? ) :


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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 20th Mar 2012 10:32 Edited at: 20th Mar 2012 10:38
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Quote: "There's a problem with this method though. For simplicities sake let's just assume a deck of 9 cards from 1-9

Assuming you already picked 1, 2 and 3, then 4 has 4x the chance of being picked over 5,6,7,8,9
Why? because if RND() returns 1, 2, 3 or 4 then it will pick 4. Where's in order for 7 to be picked, it must land exactly on 7. If 4 gets picked then 5 has a 5x higher chance cause now it has 4 numbers before it.

You can also redo the check the calling rnd() again until it finds a random slot. This is an inefficient method though. If you have hundreds or thousands of cards then you could be looping for a long time to find a valid position, and it'll take longer each time you do it as each card disappears "


It doesn't work like that. You have to count the cards from 1 to rnd(), not counting zero cards. I like this method because it looks like you are really going through a fan of cards picking a card from that fan.

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Koolmist
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Thanks guys that was extremely helpfull, Zero slave thanks for the snippets, so far with out it being in code it just doesn't make sense to me just talking about it.. With you examples however I am beginning to grasp the concepts alot better. For some reason arrays have eluded me for the last two weeks until I see it as work in the snippet.. all tutorials i have read give examples but they change examples in the middle of describing an array.. first its a row of boxes then its a group of people and thier ages... i wish they would stick to one example and go with it.. Again thanks it's starting to make more sense now..

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zeroSlave
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Posted: 21st Mar 2012 06:34 Edited at: 21st Mar 2012 07:42
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No sweat. I had the idea to make a MTG (huge MTG fan) game long time ago, and just stopped working on it.

I always just think of an array as just a variable that can hold multiple pieces of data. Don't need to know much more than that until you start getting into multidimensional arrays which are sort of like boxes. Inside boxes. (sometimes inside even MORE boxes.) o_O

Here is a program you can run. It's also got a bunch of comments to help with how arrays can be used well:


Hope that helps!

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Koolmist
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Wow thanks man.. That's exactly what I was looking for, now it makes total sense!! Lol th mouse over was very similar to what I was already doing with mouse click, so close but not quite..
Thanks again!!

Koolmist

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Penfold
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Hi Koolmist

I am probably one of the few people on here that know the Star trek CCG inside and out. (well I did when it was about 10 years ago and I now own a gamers shop ).

I'd consider making it one player to begin with, I know it might sound a bit dumb but you'll see why when your coding its far easier adding a second player after you have all the nitty gritty done.

once youve got your card data types all figured out (thanks zero slave ,nice mtg commons !!) you'll prolly need to work on the basics.

Dont worry too much about seeding missions and dilemas too much! Strip the game back to its core components and impliment them one at a time. thankfully the game is designed neatly enough so that you should be able to add each new function with very little change to existing code.

Start with simple things like getting the card text displayed with the right information on them (and only worry about those types you'll draw) to begin with no mission space line stuff.

1. A basic deck of cards ,personel,ships, interrupts, equipment etc (one race to begin with aswell, i advise fed,klingon or romulen as they dont have many special rules). Get it to shuffle and give you a new starting hand each time. you'll prolly want to create some basic data blocks at the end of your code for the cards(and worry about loading them from a file later).

2.Draw new cards from your deck.by this time you should have arrays down pretty well so you program knows how many and of what type of cards are left in the deck.

3. Get a basic predefined spaceline. Start with only 4 or 6 planets (this can be increased easily) dont worry about victory points. just get them on the screen and so they are displayed in the right order.

4. make it so you can select a planet to put your spacedock on, at this point dont worry if its a legal target or not you can program that in later.

5.if you've got this far you should now make cards in your hand selectable and so they can be seeded at the space dock (starships first? moved there on screen and out of your hand. then once in space dock types selectable so they can be put onto starships.

6.make it so your your ship moves with all the personel and stuff attached up n down the space line using mouse clicks or arrow keys?

and then by this time you should have a fair idea how to check for legal targets, adding information and skill checks for missions. you should be able to add cards almost at will.

This is far from a small project, but i think for a basic game (which you could change from 2d to 3d quite easily) you could with a few struggles get a basic game working within a month.

If you need any help with specific ccg/tcg rules that need to be implimented I can help you with that (principles), as I'm only just getting back into programming I might struggle giving you specific code responces.

I wish you luck with this project as it possibly one of the best games ive ever played.

'Ooh 'eck chief'...'crumbs'
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Koolmist
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2012 04:18
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Well the book I ordered on amazon finally came.. "Beginners guide to darkBASIC game programming". I have been reading for about two hours now and am really starting remember alot for my childhood..

@Penfold, your input would be greatly appreciated concerning the games rules, I have been searching the web for a couple weeks and can't find any real rules on even the basics of playing the game, 2e of course. I have 2605 card images in jpg format including dilema,mission,personnel,equip,interrupt,and event cards. The idea of making a Star Trek card game actually came from a friend of mine, that I modified to STCCG, he wanted to make the the cards have modifiers so thier abilities would change when placed with other players.. ie Janeway, with Paris, Kim ,and Torres would increase her command abilities, in tactical situations. I realized that it was basically STCCG so I decided to go with that instead, since there are set rules and I wouldn't have to make the grapics from scratch, I could use card images..

Also as a note to all, credit will be given when I finally finish this project I assure you, you will see you name scrolling in the ending credits!!

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Koolmist
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2012 04:20
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Yay!! I have passed the newcomer forum barrier!! No more waiting to see if my post has gone up!!

lol

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Koolmist
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2012 06:10 Edited at: 23rd Mar 2012 06:38
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Ok i have run into a little error when running my menu.. everything seems to be running fine until I hit my back button and then im getting the right image but the wrong buttons..



If I put gosub main_menu in the place of the past image and play sound then when I click on new game it ends. I know this is a newb mistake, but for the life of me I can't figure out why it's not working..

@zeroSlave thanks again the mouse over works quite nicely..

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Penfold
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2012 15:04
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Quote: "2e of course"

Hmm not sure specifically about 2nd ed. I stopped playing properly around the time mirror mirror came out, because I functionally couldnt get all of the cards I wanted.

Still have my cards though and my rom deck.. did you ever get the future enterprise?

I'm havig difficulty in seeing whats wrong with the code as I cant visualize the pictures your using.
Iw oudl sugest putting different menu screens into different functions and using if statements to say which to show. it would tidy up your code and make it easier to see where your problems are.

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Koolmist
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Posted: 25th Mar 2012 18:48
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Wow i finally figured it out.. amazing how important the word "then" is when typing "if mc=1 then gosub main_menu".. sure glad DarkBASIC debugs before it tries to run.

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Koolmist
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Posted: 25th Mar 2012 23:21
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So I have a new problem when I click on federation on the alliance menu it looks like it just runs that loop again instead of going to the page that its supposed to.. I copied and pasted the code from a button that does work and it still doesn't work.. what am I missing with the federation code?




Like i said the button to main_menu works I can click it all day long and bounce back and forth from the alliance page to the menu no problem.. the resolution to this problem is annoying me...

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Koolmist
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Posted: 26th Mar 2012 05:29
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Ok problem solved... just needed to put return at the end of the federation sub.

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Penfold
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Posted: 26th Mar 2012 22:26
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you should probably get into the habbit now of your putting your stuff into functions... your main loop should be practically empty. something like- this will save you a metric ton of work.

menus()

Do
handlecontrols()
movecards()
handlecarddisplay()
handlecameras()
handlescreeninfo()
sync
loop

function menus()
do
menu code...
sync
loop
endfunction

it will mean when you come to code the rest you can totally ignore the menu code and concentrate on the other engine code. It will also mean when you need help all you have to do is post the function segment not the whole code. This will mean a quicker reponce from people with help as well.

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