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Geek Culture / So you've got a funky game idea ...

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Fallout
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Posted: 4th Nov 2003 21:35
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I was thinking, you know what really sucks? Game ideas. Well, they don't suck, but what does frustrate me is that for the vast majority of us, they'll never be realised.

We can all dabble in DB and make some funky little games, but deep down inside we all want to realise those monumental FPS, RPG, simulation etc. games that are (A) not possible with DBs technology and (B) far far too much work and complexity for amature hobbiests.

So what do we do? Last night I was playing dungeon siege over the network with two of my house mates and I had an absolutely superb idea for a thoroughly different take on the RPG genre. Now my head is buzzing with what would be a cracking RPG and totally unique, but my problem is, I can't make the bastard! I can't make it in DB. I'm experienced enough in DB to know it's not feasible, technology or time/effort wise. So the only other solution is to approach a professional gaming company with the idea and put it to them.

... but how successful is that gonna be? I'm guessing my success rate would be somewhere between zero and none. Why? Because game companies don't need unknown randoms coming off the street telling them what to do, because these days games are such expensive and huge projects that they need to rely on a dedicated design and ideas department.

So where does that leave me idea? In a gaming ideas void, I'm afraid. The only hope is to get onto the design department of a top gaming firm (which would be a stroke of serious talent and luck in itself). I just think it's a shame.

So who feels the same? And who thinks they've still got what it take to make their own AAA game in DB *points and laughs* ?

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Ian T
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Posted: 4th Nov 2003 21:41
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uhh... right. What a useless post. I'll be damned if the idea isn't possible in Pro with some properly made plugins. If you're that much of a development genius, go code it in ASM.

--Mouse: Famous (Avatarless) Fighting Furball

A very nice %it, indeed.
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Fallout
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Posted: 4th Nov 2003 22:04
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lol - I'm having a general discussion in the general discussion forum. This time my chosen topic is about realising complex AAA game ideas. Sorry if it doesn't seem to serve a purpose for you. I'll try and cure cancer in my next post, or maybe try and raise money for plastic surgery for napalm victims.

I also never claimed to be a development genius (quite the opposite actually) and you're also clearly barking if you you think you can make AAA games like Half Life 2 in dbpro. I think even Lee himself chuckles to himself whenever he reads a post about someone trying to make Doom 3 in dbpro.

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Ian T
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Posted: 4th Nov 2003 22:06
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'you're also clearly barking if you you think you can make AAA games like Half Life 2 in dbpro'

Obviously not. Pro wasn't developed at the cutting edge, but it was developed with what was modern and powerful at the time, and still is now. You have to start small, and any big game developer will tell you that. Your point is that DarkBASIC is cheap because you can't make cutting edge games in your free time? It's thing like that that Lee laughs at, I think .

--Mouse: Famous (Avatarless) Fighting Furball

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Fallout
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Posted: 4th Nov 2003 22:15
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How about I tell you what my point is rather than letting you try and figure it out for me ...

My point is, we all have ideas for AAA game titles. It takes pro companies with many skilled individuals years to make these games. Realistically, an individual using dbpro won't be able to realise his ideas of a AAA game. So what do people think is the most viable option?

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Arrow
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Posted: 4th Nov 2003 22:18 Edited at: 4th Nov 2003 22:19
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I have one of those "far off" game ideas, I've even planned out the logic on how it works. Trouble is that A) I'm constantly adding to it, B) have no clue if my models will work the way I want them to (like figuring out have to create a single bone skelleton that can be used for a character wearing pants or a dress), C) motivation, or rather my lack there of, and D) my understanding of a few of DBPros codes are some what lacking, such as the Memblocks for example.

For now I'm consintrating on the models, it'll be the toughest part to get working correctly, also if the game is never finished I at least have some models for my next idea. I just need to get moving.


DDR is the best form of exercise money can buy.
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Ian T
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Posted: 4th Nov 2003 22:23
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'My point is, we all have ideas for AAA game titles. It takes pro companies with many skilled individuals years to make these games. Realistically, an individual using dbpro won't be able to realise his ideas of a AAA game. So what do people think is the most viable option?'

Realistically it is just as possible in Pro as it is in any other language, a single person just dosen't have the time for it. Small groups of game developers have in the past and are still striking it rich with a single good game, in a large variety of languages. Even those who don't actually get commercial gain do get a massive fan community-- Liero, a relatively simple DOS game made in '99, still has a massive fan following even though it was last updated around four years ago.

No, you can't make a triple-A game in your free time in a couple of months. There is no viable option for that. You don't start with triple-A games. None of the triple-A games out there right now sprung out of thin air. But if you have a dedicated team, are willing to give it years of your life, and are quite serious about making it, it's possible to make a damn good one and possibly secure a future in the game industry.

--Mouse: Famous (Avatarless) Fighting Furball

A very nice %it, indeed.
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Fallout
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Posted: 4th Nov 2003 22:29
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Motivation is definitely the biggest killer, probably followed by lack of skills in key areas, followed by technical problems.

I'd like to do real time shadowing too, but that's a touch far fetch for db. And I'd like to do a nicely lightmapped level, but it seems like you have to pay for the tools to do it, and I don't know how fast they'd be.

I think it's those sort of obsticles that kill my motivation.

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Fallout
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Posted: 4th Nov 2003 22:30
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@Mouse

That's why I think the most viable option is to get your game idea onto the drawing board of a professional company. The question is how?

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Ian T
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Posted: 4th Nov 2003 22:32 Edited at: 4th Nov 2003 22:32
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By having a good resume. Make some programs, get involved in small ways in the industry-- things you can beef up your game development history with. Then hit the big companies with your killer idea, and they might actually consider giving you a team.

--Mouse: Famous (Avatarless) Fighting Furball

A very nice %it, indeed.
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Andy Igoe
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Posted: 4th Nov 2003 22:34
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I've never had an idea that couldn't 'technically' be realised in DBP. The problem is I get as many as 15 on an off day and only half an idea when I am actually sitting at the keyboard wanting to start a new project. Thankfully inspiration is never far off, and a quick visit to the pub normally sorts me out.

Certainly my team could not produce Halflife 2 or Doom 3, we just dont have the time and yes, we lack the skill *hates to admit that*, but we certainly could write a game of the same genre with some superior aspects that could find it's own niche - if that was what Banshee where all about, it *could* be done.

Personally I have long since shyed away from really big projects, but our next release Transfusion is somewhat of a halfway house. It has taken us months to develop and it isn't finished yet, for a team that normally writes games over a single weekend it is a huge leap - and now we have the 'facility' for an MMORG we might even start making one of those soon.

I always said I wouldn't attempt something as big as an MMORG without the infrastructure in place to do it, well now by coincidence we have that infrastructure so it is a possibility for the future. I'd like our userbase to be a bit bigger, running at nearly 30,000 unique IP#'s to the webpage last month, it's not really enough to turn into an active MMORG user base, but could be good for a small game.

Then there's the utilities for the DBP community i've always wanted to write. That replacement for the matrix system, that rival for cartography shop, that art package, that 3d modeller with a 'fresh' approach...

Then there's the little games I fancy writting because I think the gameplay would be good, then there's long term big projects I sometimes return too and never finish. Then there's all the ideas from the rest of the team...

So many ideas, so little willingness to get off my butt and actually put the 783 hours a day in that it would all take...

Pneumatic Dryll
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Fallout
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Posted: 4th Nov 2003 22:42 Edited at: 4th Nov 2003 22:45
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I tell you what. If someone can make a utility that is FREE (buzz word) and can make quality large levels with good looking lightmapping, that run quickly (high optimised). I'd be a happy bunny, and I'd start to make my game idea, even if it'll always be head and shoulders below AAA games. It's the lack of free facilities to make good looking environments that throws me.

EDIT: Game making is a hobby for me (I dont want to be a professional programmer) so I don't want to spend more than the money I spent on DBPro to realise a decent quality title. I've invested a lot of time in games and engines, but without utilities, it slows it all down a lot when it comes to moving past the "engine" stage. Yes, I could write them myself, but where's the fun in that? I want to make games, not 20 utilities to make games.

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Ian T
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Posted: 4th Nov 2003 22:49
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Hobbies generally cost a bit of money. Cars, sports, computers-- whatever floats your boat, but you really can't be serious about it if you aren't willing to spend some money on utilities. And if you want to make a decent quality 3d titles, chances are you're gonna have to put a couple hundred bucks into it-- that's the way it goes.

Of course, if you really don't want to, there are always roguelikes .

--Mouse: Famous (Avatarless) Fighting Furball

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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 5th Nov 2003 01:04
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The thing about your idea is this...It's technically very difficult to make, therefore it is a great game! Do you see the connection? Imagine a film like The Matrix, technically difficult to make, of course it's going to be a great Film/Game whatever. If your game idea is so great, then it will be great without all this complexity. Otherwise it is only great because it is so advanced in the first place. Do you have a great game idea, or an awe-inspiringly complex engine?

Pincho.
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 5th Nov 2003 01:21
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Quote: " tell you what. If someone can make a utility that is FREE (buzz word) and can make quality large levels with good looking lightmapping, that run quickly (high optimised). I'd be a happy bunny, and I'd start to make my game idea, even if it'll always be head and shoulders below AAA games. It's the lack of free facilities to make good looking environments that throws me."


problem is they take time to create, and if your willing to put in the time and effort to do something on this scale then you'll want something in return.

no doubt there are many developers here who could quite easily make a title suchas Half-Life2 ... IF they had the manhours to actually achieve it and more importantly the staminia.

These are the two major factors. You have to realise that to achieve something like HL2 isn't going to take an afternoon. It is by all means possible in DBP, probably not with the exact same features or min system specs. But possible.
And unlike Mod development where your working with a working engine and editing it to your needs, you need to be willing to put alot of faith in your programming to begin with.

This said, i believe your talking AAA as in graphically ... when its actually the gameplay that makes or breaks a game. The graphics are mearly the first impact on the player.


To Survive You Must Evolve... This Time Van Will Not Escape His Fate!
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Fallout
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Posted: 5th Nov 2003 01:26
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I get your point Pincho, and I do agree that a great game idea doesnt need funky graphics to make it good. True that. No dispute. Game engines are fine, but without a decent game made from them, there's no point in the frilly graphics.

bbbb b b b b BUT!!! Seeing as this idea I have is an RPG, I don't feel it'd be worth investing a huge amount of time in it, even if the idea and story is superb, if everyone's first impression is "my nan could make better graphics". I feel that, if you're gonna create a project that's gonna require a lot of time and effort invested in it, you need to do it justice in the media department.

As you said though, the media is useless without a great game, and a great game doesnt need funky graphics, but quality graphics do make a great game a hell of a lot greater.

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Fallout
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Posted: 5th Nov 2003 01:30
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@Raven

Yeah, I was talking AAA visually mainly. Lighting effects, polygon count, size of world, view distance, decals etc. I'm not the sort to think graphics is the be-all-and-end-all of games, but you must appreciate that to be immersed in an environment and for it to feel realistic, the graphics need to be top notch. You can make a great game with shoddy visuals, but it's never gonna be atmospheric, or realistic, or emersive if it doesn't look great.

Maybe I would be wise to try and make my own level editor then, as it seems like the most viable option. God knows how I'd code the raycasting to figure out the lightmaps though. That's the only real part of making a level editting tool that I can't see myself making.

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 5th Nov 2003 01:45
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It's what the pro's do Fallout
quite simply when no tool fits the job... make your own.
if you need information on things then you should checkout gamedev.net got some good things on there.

also i'm always here to point in the right direction
i have alot of ideas and understanding to get things done, just never the time to actually do it.

several ways i can think of in dbp
one way i know of for db ... just depends how dirty you wanna get your hands, and how you want to combine them later.


To Survive You Must Evolve... This Time Van Will Not Escape His Fate!
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Fallout
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Posted: 5th Nov 2003 01:59
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I have ideas for it too, but there's no getting around the fact it'll be a lot of hard work to make a raycaster generate lightmaps. If it was a bunch of cubes, maybe, but when you start thinking of complex shapes and the texture mapping and the lightmapping for those, it gets scarey. Would take a lot of work, I know it.

How's BSP support these days? Never used em yet. Still slow and buggy, or working better?

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MikeS
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Posted: 5th Nov 2003 02:01
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Working better I suppose. I certainly avoid them, but every patch they get stabler. Shouldn't be too much of a need to fear them right now, in fact, now might be a good time to start learning some of the ins and outs of them.



A book? I hate book. Book is stupid.
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 5th Nov 2003 02:05
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not used them in like 4months ... so god knows
and personally, if i couldn't be arsed to do something, i'd just find someone online who's already done it and nick it in the name of freeware (^_^)

i mean hell Zoner made his HL BSP tools including qRad (lightmaps) opensource so ya know why the hell not use something like that.
its under LGPL so you can't sell it, and you must release source of changes you make.

But as your not changing but redeveloping in another language the LGPL actually doesn't cover it. (see it as ironic progamming poetry lol)


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Fallout
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Posted: 5th Nov 2003 02:07
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Yeah, I agree. That'd solve my lightmapping problem for me. Then I could use conventional methods for outdoor areas and BSP for indoor areas. I suppose that'd take the pain out of collision too. Maybe I'll look into them. The only BSP editor I've ever used though is Tread3D. Anyone know the best option for db?

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 5th Nov 2003 02:39
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i always found GTKRadiant easy. and other seems to like Hammer


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