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Geek Culture / My Question of the Day/Debate of the day:

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old_School
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Posted: 15th Apr 2013 23:40
So this is really just to debate the difference of DB vs. Microsoft frameworks. I think its a good debate:

I’ll try to make this quick and point out the obvious. The main point of an engine sold commercially to “hobbest” is to make money and grow your business. Pretty obvious TGC did not invite you over for milk and cookies. They are here to sale you a product which is designed to allow you to make “games” or software. If a company has a successful product or successful engine in our story, the business will grow because people see the value in the tool.

However, we also want to build the games faster and better. So how is DB Pro better how does it compare to Visual Studio/XNA framework which our tools it’s competing against (yes I know XNA is no longer supported, does not make it a bad framework). I mean XNA was created by Microsoft just for games and it’s free. DB Pro cost money or at least my version did, so why pay? Microsoft also gives you Visual studio Express for free.

You say it’s easier but go learn any language and after a month it’s easy to program. Now bringing this back full swing here, about 99% of the games sold worldwide and made/competed were built using Microsoft and their tools. So yes you can make games making DB Pro but how is it faster or better? It takes months if not years to perfect and create a good game. FPSC is still buggy and TGC is building it with a group of professional developers. So I guess the question is from me why is DB pro better or easier? It all takes the same amount of time, just a framework and Microsoft clearly has the better framework. So why is it better or “easier”?
mr Handy
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Posted: 15th Apr 2013 23:58
Oh come on. DBP is free. And if you have made "something" that people will buy to play - DBP license price is laughable.

I would be good if someone here will post an example or two of good sellers on XNA and VS

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Indicium
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Posted: 16th Apr 2013 00:23
Quote: " 99% of the games sold worldwide and made/competed were built using Microsoft and their tools. "


This is what I like to call pulling facts out of your arse.


They see me coding, they hating. http://indi-indicium.blogspot.co.uk/
TheComet
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Posted: 16th Apr 2013 00:26 Edited at: 16th Apr 2013 00:32
I don't see why this debate you're trying to create is even relevant.

You're missing the point entirely. It's not about what language is better, it's all about making games. A good developer has a good set of tools in his tool box, and knows when to use what tool.

Let me give you an example: I decide this very day to write a first person shooter game, targeting Android platforms. OK, so the best tool for this job will either be Java using the Android SDK and OpenGL or some other graphics library (libgdx for instance). Or maybe you'll use Unity, which would be an equally good choice.

You're a fair way in, and now you notice you want shaders! Java is HORRIBLE for seeing results quickly with shaders. You might now choose to switch to DBPro so you can prototype some shaders! Or maybe you'll use Unity3D for that, because you get to see the results instantly.

Or maybe you want to try something fancy with vertex manipulation, and do that with DBPro. Whatever.

The point is that each tool is good for a specific thing, and the magic of creating games lies solely in the art of choosing the correct tool.

TheComet


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TheComet
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Posted: 16th Apr 2013 00:32
With that said, C# and XNA is a great "midway" to learning C++ and Direct3D. C# teaches you good good C++ coding habits, and seems to be one of the best high level languages for creating games. It has a lot of safety bars built in, so it's hard to shoot yourself in the foot with it. It lets you focus on learning C# without having to worry about lower level stuff you usually have to worry about in C++.

Also, this idea you have of "selling games"... You need to knock that out of your head. I'm not trying to crush your dreams or anything, but thinking like that is like throwing a road block in your way. If you're only making games so you can sell them, then forget it, because that's not how good games are made. If you make your games out of love and passion, and complete something worth playing, THAT is when you can start thinking about selling, and no sooner.

Sorry about the double post.

TheComet


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Libervurto
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Posted: 16th Apr 2013 01:01 Edited at: 16th Apr 2013 01:06
Quote: "The main point of an engine sold commercially to “hobbest” is to make money and grow your business."

What is "hobbest"? Is this the return of the hobbits?

I'm hearing you and I'm sensing that you're considering going back to the drawing board vis-a-vis software development solutions. Sometimes it can be of a beneficial nature to in fact go back to square one and in fact revamp your current "live" solutions tools, because at the end of the day this could endeavour to increase efficiency in production of your product and in fact get a spike in your throughput and at the end of the day get your product to launch in a more efficient and timely manner that is an improvement which may enhance and likely reduce the temporal capacity of your project schedule thus reducing workload in a manner that promotes the ability for you to meet deadlines and secure positive feedback and ultimately enabling you to maximize your profit margins to a substantial degree of magnitude that is in fact in the order of a scale that is more or less larger than the present scale that is being experienced at this time.


Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 16th Apr 2013 01:23
I don't think it's really comparable.

I can't really say which is better, because it's really about perspective.

When I was 15 with an interest in learning a programming language to make my own games. Dark Basic Pro was a fantastic language to learn as I found it an easy language to get to grips with and I got results out of it fairly quickly. I wasn't very good mind you, but on multiple occasions I attempted the MS route, Visual Basic, C#, C++, I used to only get so far.

Since successfully switching to C#, I've still found Dark Basic Pro useful, because there's things I can do speedily in DBPro, to test things, because I use fewer lines of code to get the same results. Even vs Dark GDK.NET.

If I were to do a comparison between
Dark Basic Pro
and
XNA in C#.

Dark Basic Pro would help me produce content a lot quicker and is easier to get to grips with and is simpler.
XNA/C# has fewer bugs, offers more control and is multiplatform and its results are typically more resource efficient.

Interestingly, for this comparison, check out an arcade shooter called 'Echoes' and 'Echoes+', echoes was written in Dark Basic Pro, whilst Echoes+ is the XNA version released on Xbox Live Arcade Indie. The quality between the two? No difference. The game is highly addictive. The creators, Binary Zoo, used to be quite heavy users of Dark Basic, I wouldn't say they're a big financial success, but their games were fantastic IMO. In many instances DBP has proven itself as the right tools for the job.

I was actually tempted to get into XNA, but for 3D, I found it to be more complicated and found it required a lot more lines of code to do the give the same/similar results. I settled on Unity3D in the end, because it's a lot more artist friendly and like DBPro, it cuts out a lot of work coding wise.


My verdict? It depends on what a programmer gets out of it and what they want. I don't believe in any kind of programming snobbery, I think it's fruitless. The benefits are entirely subjective. At the end of the day, if you're good with your tools, then you will make the player happy.

I think there's a saying isn't there, "a poor workman blames his tools".

Chris Tate
DBPro Master
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Posted: 16th Apr 2013 03:20 Edited at: 16th Apr 2013 03:21
XNA is redundant; it's being discontinued by Microsoft. Didn't make much money. Good luck with it.

Debating the differences between DarkBASIC to "Microsoft Frameworks" is like comparing New York to the United States of America.

There are some questions you just do not ask...

DarkBASIC is a windows platform development tool, Windows is a "Microsoft Framework" operating system; therefore DarkBASIC uses the "Microsoft Framework", in inverted commas I emphasize.

Get Visual Studio, install Dark GDK or wrap DarkBASIC in a user control; and there you have the best of both worlds.

Van B
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Posted: 16th Apr 2013 14:41 Edited at: 16th Apr 2013 14:43
99%?

So the iOS, Mac, and Android platforms among several others just don't exist?

TGC might provide tools for game creation, but where do you imagine they actually make money? - I'll give you a hint... I mentioned it in the last paragraph. The bottom line is that TGC doesn't necessarily have to make FPSC or DBPro, they might even make more profit concentrating on apps and games... considering the actual price of DBPro throughout it's life has been really fair, it's free now - but even back in the day it was a helluva lot cheaper than most of the options. TGC aren't supporting a development platform, they are supporting a community of game developers while trying to stay afloat. Good on them I say, because if the only option was Microsoft, then I wouldn't have done very much at all. In fact, I was close to giving up until I found DB - back then I was trying to use VB6 and getting sick of the walls of obfuscation. I needed a true procedural game creation language that wasn't stuck up it's own butt, something that let me experiment and work organically. Most new people here aren't looking to learn a language, they are looking to learn how to make games, and they stay around because there's a lot of help available here... probably more help and less stress than they'd get on other programming forums. Even AppGameKit has a solid group of users who are always willing to offer advice without the obfuscation.

At the end of the day it's a matter of taste - I like rapid prototyping, I like waking up with an idea and knowing if it works by the end of the day. What strikes me about hobbyist and indie development is how there's a bell curve of bull around which tools you use. People who really know, know that results are what's important... people who know little tend to just be impressed... but people in the middle are the ones who think it's so important.
The best tool to use is the tool that gets the job done, not the tool that some tool on YouTube said you should use, not the tool your teachers or lecturers said you should use. There is no ideal or perfect system for creating games, just the system that's perfect for you and your project at that point in time. For one thing, most developers can forget about using just 1 all-in language/platform these days, not if they expect their game to get anywhere.

Did you ever consider Old_School, that we're not really interested in switching - and this constant nipple-tweaking about it is just annoying.

I got a fever, and the only prescription, is more memes.
mr Handy
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Posted: 16th Apr 2013 16:18
Quote: "So the iOS, Mac, and Android platforms among several others just don't exist?"

For the PC users may not exist. That just generic timekillers for playing while in subway.

Why don't you count then Facebook games?

P.S. Mac for games? Lol wut?

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BatVink
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Posted: 16th Apr 2013 16:45
Quote: "about 99% of the games sold worldwide and made/competed were built using Microsoft and their tools"


Reference please?

In July 2012, C++ accounted for 9.1% of development (TIOBE Index) and this is Microsoft's most popular offering by a significant margin. This means that 99.9% of games written in all other languages would have to be incomplete for your statistic to be true.

mr Handy
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Posted: 16th Apr 2013 16:52
Quote: "TIOBE programming community index is a measure of popularity of programming languages, calculated from number of search engine results for queries containing the name of the language. The index covers searches in Google, Google Blogs, MSN, Yahoo!..."


Excellent source.

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Indicium
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Posted: 16th Apr 2013 17:13
Macs are reaching a point where we can no longer insult them for being unable to run games, as they can run many, we'll have to find something new to poke holes in it for.


They see me coding, they hating. http://indi-indicium.blogspot.co.uk/
Van B
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Posted: 16th Apr 2013 17:26
My Mac can run Minecraft solidly for days on end, days - while my brothers top of the range gaming PC chokes on it.

Of course, I only really play MC and Killing Floor on the mac, but if I didn't have a PC, I'd be all over the app store, Steam, the Humble Bundles... there's actually some decent options for mac gamers these days - nothing compared to other platforms, but there are finally some decent games to be had.

I got a fever, and the only prescription, is more memes.
mr Handy
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Posted: 16th Apr 2013 17:35
Quote: "Excellent source."

I forgot to add (sarcasm).

Quote: "Macs are reaching a point where we can no longer insult them for being unable to run games"

Of course they can! They smoothly run whole library of 3,14 games.

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Van B
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Posted: 16th Apr 2013 18:06
What's your point Mr Handy?

Do you even know? - why are you mangling on about this as if your narrow opinion makes the slightest bit of difference.

Not annoyed, it's just getting tedious. Enough with the mindless replies, your failing at trolling if we just boot you before anyone even finds you amusing.

I got a fever, and the only prescription, is more memes.
BatVink
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Posted: 16th Apr 2013 18:14
Quote: "Quote: "Excellent source."
I forgot to add (sarcasm)."


Firstly, it is indeed a source, always a good starting point. Secondly, in the absence of any evidence to support the claim that 99% of games are made using M$ tools, the 9.1% is looking a lot closer to the mark. Given the huge amount of documentation that comes with C++, the TIOBE index is actually biased in favour of it and thus the reality is probably lower.

Libervurto
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Posted: 16th Apr 2013 19:26
I find Ubuntu runs things better than Windows, and that's even when an idiot like me installs the 32-bit distribution by mistake! (I forgot the disc I was using was from my old 32-bit rig.)


Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 16th Apr 2013 21:22
I think Van B summarises it fairly. DBPro was created in a different time and kudos to TGC for continuing to offer support. Perhaps this is something we could put into an advantage TGC has over MS, if something dips in popularity and they want to move onto something new, MS will drop support. For example, XNA.

TGC on the other hand, they are STILL supporting DBPro and FPSC, even though their flagship is AppGameKit and they're probably making most of their money from AGK.

But to put DBP into context, when it was created, there weren't many options if you have a low budget or were a hobbyist. I think I pointed this out in another thread. The days when DBPro thrived was when the alternatives were out of reach, which meant DBPro managed to fill a niche, DBPro wasn't the only tool to fill the niche, I remember the flame wars between Dark Basic and Blitz3D users. IIRC Blitz 3D never went over to Direct X 9 and remained in DX7, arguably DBPro won that war, but Blitz3D was still a very good tool. With FPSC:Reloaded, we may even get a Direct X 11 version of DB, which would be neat. I know the Direct X 10 version was a prototype used to create FPSC:X10.

If I wanted to use something like Unity 3D, Torque Game Engine or one of the many alternatives out there I would be looking to pay a heftier prices and would find it harder to get to grips with, which wasn't necessarily ideal. Remember it wasn't that long ago the free version of Unity3D cost money and was plenty more expensive than DBP. Unreal was only accessible to large game studios and modders (with only the ability to mod) and if you wanted to buy a single seat, well, you would have to be extremely wealthy...insanely so. It wasn't until the indie market grew that Unreal decided to monetise off of it by offering a version of their engine, which takes payments in royalties, meaning it's free to use.

Even Microsoft Visual Studio, it wasn't until the 2008 version that people had the option to use it for free. So if people wanted to use C++ or C#, they would need to use tools like DevC++ or Sharpdevelop or other free/open source software. Which wasn't necessarily a suitable option. They certainly lacked a lot of the features MS offered, and engines you might use might not work natively with the free versions of languages. But you'd be able to use things like Irrlicht. (I remember trying Irrlicht in DevC++).
If you wanted an alternative to Visual Basic, well, there's a whole plethora of tools that use some of basic, Dark Basic included. Sure it may lack some of the features, but on release it cost considerably a lot less.
But at least when Visual Studio 2008 Express was released TGC had their foot in the door because Microsoft released it with the free non-commercial version of Dark GDK available for download on their main site. Meaning TGC adapted.

I don't think DBPro is seen as advantageous as it used to be, the competition is much tougher. There are certain advantages it does have. You can see how the change in time has affected DBPro through it's community, it is a fraction of what it used to be and it no longer has the big attention it used to and we no longer have those big competitions.

Times change and naturally businesses adapt, for TGC, they've drawn their attention to the mobile market and AppGameKit, which it's doing rather successfully. But it hasn't meant they've dropped support for legacy software.

I think it's fruitless to try and compare DBP to the current market because it wasn't designed for the current market, but it isn't dead either, because there are people who find it useful, who prefer using it and enjoy it. I think Van B points it out perfectly, it's an example of a programming language that's truly procedural and offers quick results.

Not saying it's quicker to produce results in DBP than it is, say, Unity3D, because you have an editor, most of the code programmed for you and all you have to do is put a scene together and script, so I could get a scene set up with an FPS controller set up much quicker, however, there's code I could produce quicker in DBP. But if you were to try something a little more like for like, like a Direct X wrapper through another language (say, TrueVision 3D, Irrlicht, Ogre or even XNA), because essentially what DBP is, is a Direct X wrapper built into a language based on basic.

rolfy
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Posted: 16th Apr 2013 21:32
What really worries me is the title of this thread

I don't trip over...I do random gravity checks.
mr Handy
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Posted: 16th Apr 2013 22:17
Quote: "the 9.1% is looking a lot closer to the mark."

It's just how many people talk about it in the web, nothing more. About 99% I don't believe either though. But I am sure that most of games are written or using C, just because it's basic jobs requirments for programmer.

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TheComet
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Posted: 16th Apr 2013 23:00
Quote: "Did you ever consider Old_School, that we're not really interested in switching - and this constant nipple-tweaking about it is just annoying."


I'll just re-quote this, because it speaks my mind.

TheComet


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Wolf
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Posted: 17th Apr 2013 00:06
Quote: "What really worries me is the title of this thread
"


Every man is entitled to his own delusion.

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