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Geek Culture / Who remember S.E.U.C.K. for C64?

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Ermes
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Posted: 21st Nov 2003 12:57
yesterday night i was cleaning my room, when in a forgotten place i found my old cracked copy of SEUCK.... my god how many memories come to my mind!!!
I setted up my old c64 with it's floppy drive and give it a run.
In a matter of time i found myself to use an old joystick for edit an orrible and deformet sprite and try to move it on the ground.
The incredible thing, a game was 180k complete, and runs at 50 frame per second.Icredible for a cpu with 1mhz clock speed, and now with 3 ghz the most can't make something with more than 30 frame per second!!!!
That was an excellent editor for shot em up, the grandpappy of 3d game maker if we want, how many of you did something with SEUCK????

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go to my www to play RAVEN, THE FLIGHT OF RAVEN and SUNDAY DRIVERS
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Posted: 21st Nov 2003 13:47
I heard about it, never brought it though - I had the 3D adventure creator, which was awful.


Mirrors are more fun than television. Well, that was fun, in a not-so-fun sort of way...
Richard Davey
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Posted: 21st Nov 2003 14:20
Quote: "and now with 3 ghz the most can't make something with more than 30 frame per second!!!!"


Speak for yourself

I remember SEUCK, had it on the ST (still do have it). Written by Sensible Software before they did something decent in the shape of sensi soccer and cannon fodder. It was quite cool really, but oh so limited. But then you'd expect that I guess.

Cheers,

Rich

"It's easy to be mean when death equals a high score screen."
"You can take your Quake and go away, I'd rather play Bubble Bobble any day."
Ermes
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Posted: 21st Nov 2003 15:06
seuck for amiga was terrible.What i mean, for c64 at was incredible.

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Dazzag
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Posted: 21st Nov 2003 17:49
Never had it. But I remember it. I had the isometric adventure creator thingy (think Knight Lore). Which was crap. Although a friend of mine had a game he made in it on the cover of Crash or Sinclair user. I forget which. If anyone is doing a brainstorm here, then it was about American Football for some reason...

Best game maker was PAW on the speccy. That was class. Anyone else have that? With the big plastic box it came in, that looked like a book?

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Damokles
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Posted: 21st Nov 2003 17:53
I still have it here (and I jave the C64 here too), I created mostly games which scenes where in space. (I liked that part) At first I only edited the levels, only did a few changes to the rest.

"Begin at the beginning, and go on till you come to the end: then stop." - Lewis Carroll
spooky
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Posted: 21st Nov 2003 18:24
I've still got SEUCK on the Amiga but think it's rubbish.

@Dazzag - I also had PAW (Professional Adventure Writer) on the spectrum and it was brilliant. You can play this and ALL old speccy games in a java applet: http://www.worldofspectrum.org/

Ahh, the fun of playing classics like Horace and the spiders, Maziacs, Fat worm blows a sparky, SkoolDaze, Knot in 3d...


Boo!
heartbone
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Posted: 21st Nov 2003 18:27
I bought the superior (to the Commodore64) Atari 8-bit version.
I still have it somewhere. It is way too limited for any serious game making, but an amazing program for the time.

I never could figure out how to play one of the supplied example games that had the spinning cube with numbers on it.

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The more you know, the more you see.
Ermes
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Posted: 21st Nov 2003 19:28 Edited at: 21st Nov 2003 19:29
at that time, here in Italy, ZZAP , an old c64 magazine, every month maked a compo for the SEUCK games of c64.
At that time i was 14-15, never gain something from that!! (now i'm 30, still never gain something...)

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Dazzag
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Posted: 21st Nov 2003 20:00 Edited at: 21st Nov 2003 20:01
Quote: "You can play this and ALL old speccy games in a java applet"

That's ok. I have an old CD somewhere with about 3000 games on it. Easier than downloading them all

Oh, but I did bother downloading all the Automation Atari ST games. Pretty much everything ever. Almost. Still looking for an ST copy of Gnome ranger and Knight Orc. The last Automation disks (500 odd) did mention it, but never did a version Still, have about half a gig of classic retro ST gaming now, and only took a few hours overnight on me wireless broadband laptop. Likes.

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
klariza
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Posted: 21st Nov 2003 20:15
i was a complete and utter and total zx spectrum fan (and still am, cause i still collect the pooters and games)
never wrote games for the spectrum tho, made little black and white sprites tho
@the coding area yes i have that piece of software - yes i totally agree with u lol

I am obsessed by Toasters - especially talking ones...bizaare really isn't it?
Dazzag
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Posted: 21st Nov 2003 20:20
So, did you have the surfboard accessory? That was cool.

I made a couple of simple graphical games for the speccy, with loading screens and everything. But never really got that far. The Atari ST with STOS was the first proper machine I owned where making a decent game was actually (relatively) easily possible. I even owned a ZX assembler. But that was just before I got my ST, so didn't really do much.

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 21st Nov 2003 20:39
I've made games for the Spectrum, the Commodore 64, the Amiga, the PC, some graphics for the megadrive, and the handheld sega thing which I can't remember the name of. I've programmed with Z80 basic, Speccy basic, C64 Basic, C64 assembler, Amiga Basic, AMOS, C, and DB. I haven't used SEUCK, but I used something called HURG? or similar. I've spent hundreds of pound on books about programming. My books on C for the Amiga cost £350, and I bought them all on the same day. They were a total thickness of 4 phone directories. Assembler was the hardest language of them all, and all I acheived was moving a sprite with a joystick..but boy did it move! A touch of the joystick wrapped it around the screen about 3 times. C, I got a ball to bounce around the screen with my name on it, then realised that I would need Amiga librarys for making games.

Pincho.
Dazzag
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Posted: 21st Nov 2003 20:47
Ok. Well done.

Interestingly I was just using my new whizzy toaster and it flipped my circuits out, totally losing power to all but the lights. Nice. Stupidly I then tried doing it again once I had flicked the switch. And yep, dit it again. Damn it. I can't be bothered using the cooker to cook teacakes.... Ummm, that sounds pretty english (I'm Welsh), but they are actually pretty nice. And I'm going through a phase of them and frankfurter thingies.

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
klariza
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Posted: 21st Nov 2003 20:49
i got the light gun accessory - that was blooming cool
i got a baby zx printer with the silver foil type paper - shame u cannot get ink for it anymore - cause it still works
plenty of joysticks galore in all sizes and shapes.
i did not know they done a surf boarding assesory as well - need to look out for that one

I am obsessed by Toasters - especially talking ones...bizaare really isn't it?
Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 21st Nov 2003 21:24
I like Kempston Joysticks! They were retro! I had a light-pen that was supposed to draw on the TV screen, but it was useless.

Pincho.
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 21st Nov 2003 21:29
i've used it, personally didn't like it ... not enough control.
yet, somehow your totally confused if you thought it ran at 60fps

it runs at a set 8fps @ 160x120 (which is the common resolution not the highest) and only has to worry about 16 colours.
current games have to worry about over 4billion colours at resolutions generally of 800x600 as well as shaders and hundreds of thousands of polygons. Not to mention having to work on close to 200million instructions per second as opposed to the 2,000 back then. i'm not sure how you can even compare such things.

and just for information, the first time that a computer used more than 25/30fps in a game was Turrican3 in '91 ... which was the first game ever to boast 50fps @ 512x384x8
the first game to ever use 60fps was Sega Rally for the Saturn which was at a resolution of 768x512,
but hey just feel free to sit there and make it out to be better than it really is.


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Richard Davey
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Posted: 21st Nov 2003 21:40
Dazzag
Quote: "but I did bother downloading all the Automation Atari ST games. Pretty much everything ever."


Automation were ok, but not the best When did you download them? because a brand new Automation set was released a month or so back which fixed loads of the previously dodgey disc images.

Also I have Ingrid and Knight Orc if you want (along with way more than half a gigs worth of ST stuff) what can I say.. tis my passion... (www.atari.st <- my site)

Cheers,

Rich

"It's easy to be mean when death equals a high score screen."
"You can take your Quake and go away, I'd rather play Bubble Bobble any day."
Dazzag
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Posted: 21st Nov 2003 22:04
Yep. Those were the ones I downloaded. They redid all the dodgy disks or something. Some of the scrolls even mentions this (think it was one of the first ones too).

Dunno, in terms of sheer volume, it was hard to beat Automation.

Personal favs were the Pompey Pirates at the time.

Ooh, go on then. The Gnome Rangers and Knight Orcs were pretty cool. Any other adventures? eg. Fish? And what are the links?

Oh right, you are www.atari.st. Cool. That's LGD isn't it? A couple of years ago you were the best, but what happened to the direct dowloads? Then again, still has the best content.

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Richard Davey
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2003 03:19
Quote: "25/30fps in a game was Turrican3 in '91"


While I won't deny that Turrican3 was an awesome game, never in a million years was it the first to breach the 25fps limit. Hell, by 1991 even I was writing games faster than that. Getting everything tight in a VBL was king, the maximum (on a PAL TV) was 50 and there are many games who reached that in the mid to late 1980's.

Dazzag - Yeah, LGD is mine.. been so busy with TGC it has sort of collected dust for a year or so, but the FTP servers are still there if you look hard enough and I've got some good plans for the place next year. Automation were quantity, not quality.. Pompey rule

Cheers,

Rich

"It's easy to be mean when death equals a high score screen."
"You can take your Quake and go away, I'd rather play Bubble Bobble any day."
Dazzag
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2003 03:35
Cool. Sounds good.

So, what are the links for those text adventures?

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Phaelax
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2003 05:07
Shoot Em Up Construction Kit

I had it on my Amiga 500. I thought it was cool. I made a game with it when I was like 12.

I think the best games from the era were made by Psygnosis. Blood Money and Obliterator were some of the best. I think it was Bloody Money that claimed to use the most frames per animation at the time.
HZence
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2003 05:39
I think C64 and Amiga are past my generation - can someone explain them to me, like what they were (in comparison to a system that I know about, like NES). Why was it called "C64"? I know it stood for Commodore64, but was the 64, kilobytes or something?

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Ermes
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2003 10:14
64K of ram. Incredible isn't it????

by the way, i remeber i was in a programmers team in the far 93, we was developing RED41 for amiga 1200 system, a cyborg who have the duty to save the world from aliens invaders.
I was one of the two 2d artists.We never complete the game (50%done) end we split at the end of the same year.

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Posted: 22nd Nov 2003 10:52 Edited at: 22nd Nov 2003 11:00
The C64 was called that because it was possibly (tricky but possibly) to get 64K out of the machine (by bank switching) - you could effectifly replace the ROM areas ($A000-BFFF, $E000-$FFFF) and the lower 1K with RAM.

Unfortunately one slip-up and you would crash the machine...

Most people just replaced the BASIC interpreter ($A000-$BFFF), after all why waste 8K if your using assembly ?

When I wrote my Walker game (the second program I did for the C64 - the first being a music program - the actual player was interrupt driven), the music was stored at $C000, and possibly part of the player was at $A000, and it employed a split-screen method where one part of the screen was in a different resolution to the other. Dont think I employed it for the (usual) system of creating more than 8 sprites.


Mirrors are more fun than television. Well, that was fun, in a not-so-fun sort of way...
Phaelax
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2003 12:58
My Amiga ran on a 11MHz motorola cpu. 512k ram, upgraded to 1mb. No hdd, cause they cost about $600 for 100mb! I should still have an old 80's Amiga magazine with prices in it somewhere. But that 11MHz machine did things you'd never see an IBM do at the time.
I think Motorola started making chips for SGI eventually.
Richard Davey
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2003 13:19
Phaelax - the MC68000's didn't even run that fast 8MHz tops but it was a different kettle of fish with the ST/Amigas because of all the custom chips in there to play with. The joys of programming the "Amiga Bitches" Free lollipop to whoever can name them all accurately in the first revision A500

Cheers,

Rich

"It's easy to be mean when death equals a high score screen."
"You can take your Quake and go away, I'd rather play Bubble Bobble any day."
Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2003 13:47
@HZence>: I think that the Spectrum, C64, and Amiga, were the kings of 2D games! Spectrum games used to cost £3, so you could buy them all easily, some only cost 99p. The Spectrum computer had pictures made from 8*8 squares. Each square could only be a single colour, and I think you only had 8 colours to choose from. The colours were bright pink, bright green, bright blue, white, black, red, yellow, blue. Making graphics on these things that looked good, was difficult, but people managed it. The most popular games company in those days was 'ULTIMATE', and their slogan was 'Play The Game'. When Ultimate games were released it was a big story, and people would flock computer games shops to get them. When the C64 came out Ultimate died. Their games became boring. Thalamus were the big guns, along with Activision, Ocean, USGold, Codemasters, Elite, and a few others. Individuals started making games more often, and most of them became milllionairs. The C64 had sprites, which was quite new then. It had a good sound chip, unlike the Spectrum which had a tonable beep. Newspapers were always reporting about the local people making millions of pounds, and I personally thought of them like film stars.. (Who would have known that I would be working for those same people.) Then the Atari ST and Amiga came out. The Atari ST came out just before the Amiga, and people would tell you not to buy the Atari because the Amiga would blow it away. I suppose it was a bit of a machine war. Both of these machines blew the C64 away! The Atari had it's few weeks reign, then the Amiga stepped in. Because the amiga was over £1200 with 256k most people stuck with the ST. But the Amiga soon dropped in price! Pretty soon it was £350 with 512k, and the people who paid £1200 had wasted their money. Still the ST survived, and had some very dedicated followers. The Amiga had more colours, multitasking, Hardware scrolling, hardware Parallax scrolling, hardware sprites, a yamaha sound chip, with waveform capabilities..(Although all computers can play a wave.) The same companies reigned the Amiga as the C64, but Psygnosis took graphics to a new level. Unfortunately, Psygnosis never got the gameplay quite right until the PS1. The Amiga had all sorts of different modes, and screen res, but most games used 32 colours, on a 320, 256 screen (320 * 200 in some countries) Most Amiga games were £10, they were nearly all great games! People could no longer afford all of the games, and most games were hacked. Hacked games often loaded faster than the originals, with added intro's and stuff! That leads us to the PC which couldn't handle 2D games very well because it had crappy scrolling. So 3D games took over. You should really try some 2D side scrollers out because they are really great games. Try Rtype2 on Mame Rom, and Ghosts and Goblins. They were great Arcade games that made it on to the Amiga.

Pincho.
Richard Davey
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2003 16:05
The PC had some awesome 2D platform games. I remember playing an Appogee game Secret Agent all the way to the them. And Jane of the Jungle too. Commander Keen series.. hmm.. quite a few goodies Never as stylish as the 16-bit games, but still good fun.

Cheers,

Rich

"It's easy to be mean when death equals a high score screen."
"You can take your Quake and go away, I'd rather play Bubble Bobble any day."
Dazzag
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2003 16:11
£3 spectrum games? Only on budget (and 1.99 cheapy too). Used to be around £6.99 and £7.99 if I remember rightly... hmmm, what's that tune playing on the TV?..... Aha, CHiPs!!!! Used to love that show...

I thought the Amiga 500 ran at around 7.2Mhz? Less than the standard ST (8Mhz), but with custom chips that ruled. Never heard of an 11Mhz 680XX chip though. Think it was about 14 or 15 after the 7Mhz, but don't think it was a 68000, probably 68020 or something. I remember a friend of mine was getting a 68040 Amiga near the end, which if I remember rightly, ran at between 30-35Mhz. Pretty speedy.

Does anyone know what happened to that Amiga project? Where some people where basically putting together a new Amiga using bits from modern PC's? So still using Amiga bits, but with modern video cards etc. I'm sure they had a new operating system in the works and everything. Looked cool a couple of years ago.

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2003 17:15
A500+ ran at 11.75mhz, fastest 68k amiga processor was the 68080 which ran at 33.87mhz ... the original 68000 ran at 8mhz, but was overclocked for the A500 series.

however the 68k is still used today in the Macintosh computers and a few of the palmtops.
After all it is the core processor for the PPU.
The Alpha and Athlon64 processors are both heavily based upon the 68k base.

G5 64bit runs on a 68510 24 + 8bit Operation 32Bit Register 600mhz Core then has a PPU 64Bit External Processor Core running at 3.0ghz, both run at a bus speed 400mhz.

The 'Alpha' Amiga is still being promised, but Amiga Inc is really just a hobby company now of two Ex Gateway employees.
Amiga might be on life support, but the technology that powered it is still alive and well trying to kick some serious ass.

And turrican 3 was the first game i know that broke the standard PAL/NTSC frame rates ... i remember the Amiga magazing CU Amiga which later became PC Gamer had a special report at the time pushing it that it was the first game to make use of the Amiga's faster sync rates.


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Kevin Picone
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2003 18:03 Edited at: 22nd Nov 2003 18:49
One of the biggest mistakes in C='s history was NOT including a byte per pixel mode in AGA, apparently they were holding it over for the AGA+, and the infamous AAA next generation of chips. Erm, now that was wise .. Anyway, To set the scene, in early 90's 3D was really taking off. These were the days of software renderers, where everybody (including myself) used to write their own engine from the ground up.

While bit planes (as used in the Amiga chipsets OCS/ECS/AGA) are not a huge issue when rendering filled vectors, actually in some ways their a benefit, but when it comes to individual pixel manipulation, it's an extremely clumsy format to read/write to. So one of original Amiga 80's strengths (it's planar video modes) was fast becoming a liability, as Gouraud and Linear Mapping started to become common place in the 386/486/svga games. The reason for this was not the speed of pc machines cpu's, but the video hardware (vga/svga cards) suits this type of pixel rendering, far better than planar does.

The step to AGA gave us the platform to compete easily in terms of visuals, but this was absolutely crippled by the need to translate chunky to planar in software. And thus the holy grail of C2P was born. So the theory is you alloc a slab of memory, and render to it as if it was the frame buffer, so each byte represents a pixel. These are 8bit palette mapped modes. Once your render passes as complete, you translate the chunky frame buffer in fast memory to the native planar format in video memory.

Seems easy enough doesn't it. But it major FPS killer, as to convert an 8bit frame of 320*256 took 6 or 8 frames to complete (68020 14mhz no fast). While this certainly improved over the years, as the infamious 'eor' merge/swap trick and multi pass blitter routines were developed, as well as faster chips became the norm. Today the 060 can comfortable c2p a low res frame buffer inside 1 vertical blank.

This over head crippled serious 3D attempts though, in particular on the stock low end machines, were people wanted to play these games. The user base was crying out for a Wolf3d/Duke Nuke3D a Doom and our only options were to resort to 'chunky copper' displays. Which weren't as nasty to display the scene on (speed wise), but you were limited by how many colour registered could be 'set' per scanline. So the 2*2, 2.5x*2.5, and 3.5 modes were being used. Theres are copper based 'virtuals' screen modes. Great for demos, but you get ugly image quality.

I spent a lot of time in the mid 90's working on a handful of engines/approaches trying to crack a solution. Pretty much did in the very late 90's but by then it was well truly over. What was that solution ?. Strip Buffer -> Planar mapping. The Z based strip buffer eliminates any over draw, and through using 4/5 or 6 plane textures, your render only costs round 1/2 the true (generic) 8 bit c2p.. You can conformably do 4 plane c2p + texture map, on the cpu registers. The palette bands are set by the blitter pass on the back planes. All you do set the 'open/close' strip bit and the blitter fills it for you..

In around 96/97. Steven from Austex Software approach us with a new RGB device he was trying to market, around the time the Graffiti card came out. The device took the rgb signal and rotated them for output. (yes I still have my proto) This allowed us to write chunky directly to video memory, and it would appear as a normal display. The speed difference, well you wouldn't believe it, even a stock 020 14mhz looked like a super computer.

To take this further, C= attempted to attract PC developers to the CD32. This was basically a Amiga1200 + CD drive passed off as a console. After a huge amount of pressure C= added the akiko chip to the consoles chip set, rather than AGA+. Akiko had a hardware c2p translator function, among other things... Anyway, The machine was just crippled by its lack of true fast memory. The custom chips really ate your cpu cycles to the bone (even with double burst enabled 64bit fetch (2 fetchs of 32bits)). As you could easly get twice or more the through put, running your code in true fast. So rather than akikio doing anybody any real favors, it couldn't be fed data fast enough or write to video memory. So the bottleneck remained.


If AGA+ had byte per pixel modes in it in 1992/93, like it was meant to have.. Well, who knows what would have happened, but it sure would made keeping up with the jones, a lot easier.


End of rant.. Yeah, i'm not bitter

Kevin Picone
Play Basic - Visible Worlds - Kyruss II
[url]www.underwaredesign.com[/url]
Kevin Picone
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2003 18:24 Edited at: 22nd Nov 2003 18:33
Since I'm wasting time tonight.. Here's the problem, for those curious minds around here.

If we have 8 pixels each of 8bits. A representing pixel 1 (byte 1), B is pixel 2 (byte2), C is 3 etc etc. and the numbers represent the 'bit' we get a 2 digit way to repsent where the bits start and where they must end.

Our eight 8bit pixels in chunky format

a7a6a54a3a2a1a0
b7b6b5b4b3b2b1b0
c7c6c5c4c3c2c1c0
d7d6d5d4d3d2d1d0
e7e6e5e4e3e2e1e0
f7f6f5f4f3f2f1f0
g7g6g5g4g3g2g1g0
h7h6h5h4h3h2h1h0

should end up like this for planar format

a0b0c0d0e0f0g0h0
a1b1c1d1e1f1g1h1
a2b2c2d2e2f2g2h2
a3b3c3d3e3f3g3h3
a5b5c5d5e5f5g5h5
a6b6c6d6e6f6g6h6
a7b7c7d7e7f7g7h7

So what's happening is the bits are being rotated left by 90 degree's..

So you need to do this every 8 pixels.. Fun huh

Kevin Picone
Play Basic - Visible Worlds - Kyruss II
[url]www.underwaredesign.com[/url]
OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2003 19:30 Edited at: 22nd Nov 2003 19:30
The codenames for Amiga chips are :

Agnus - DMA access and timing
Denise - Controls display
Paula - Controls sound, floppy access, mouse, keyboard and some ports
Alice - Replaces Agnus - Handles AGA data
Lisa - Replaces Denise - Handles AGA data
Gary - Handles bus and floppy access
Gayle - Found in the A600 and A1200 - handles memory, IDE and memory cards
Ramsey - Manages Fast RAM
Amber - Deinterlacer


Mirrors are more fun than television. Well, that was fun, in a not-so-fun sort of way...
HZence
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2003 23:18
Thanks Pncho. (P.S. Where did pong come in in all of this?)

Rich, Apogee had THE BEST games I've ever played - man, they were classic. Commander Keen? That was one of my favorites, along with the first game I've ever played - the original Duke Nukem. Did you ever play Bio-Menace or Major Striker? Loved those too, hehe.

Team EOD :: Programmer/Storyboard Assistant
klariza
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2003 00:31
wow info overload!
i still say zx speccys rule

I am obsessed by Toasters - especially talking ones...bizaare really isn't it?
Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2003 01:23
Pong first came out mainly as a fairground attraction, and in the corner of cafe, chipshops, and pubs. There were a few driving games around too, very basic, just stay in the white lines. Then a home version came out on an Atari console. The games were expensive, about £35 for b/w games. Pong, and Space Invaders ruled. In the Arcades things were improving. Pacman, and Defender really started the addiction to computer games. Arcades were built, and were always packed. Rtype, Ghosts and Goblins, Outrun, Afterburner, and Gauntlet were successful during the Amiga period. When the 3DS, and the PS1 brought Arcade games to the home the Arcades closed down.

Pincho.
Van B
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2003 03:32
The C64 version was the best, I had the ST version and it really sucked, It did'nt even give you full access to all the colours. Plus the C64 version let you make Commando style games because it had propper collision. Sensible Software rocked though, Mega-Lo-Mania was sheer class, and Cannon Fodder was one of my favourite games.

Hehe, One of my mates bought an Atari on the strengths of Pompey Pirates disk 92, this screen:


With a weird dog sample tune .


Van-B


I laugh in the face of fate!
Richard Davey
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2003 17:30
Van: heh, yeah.. a classic menu Sparky did some awesome tunes and Sid-B's graphics showed that even with 16 colours he could out-draw most of the rendered crap we see today.

Raven:
Quote: "however the 68k is still used today in the Macintosh computers"


Mac's haven't used 68000's for donkeys years. The most common place to find them today is in a washing machine control panel it's actually the most prominent processor in the world (i.e. more made and in use than anything Intel ever dreamed of).

Quote: "And turrican 3 was the first game i know that broke the standard PAL/NTSC frame rates "


Hardly, even the mighty Factor 5 (Turricans authors) couldn't make a TV/monitor (PAL or otherwise) insert additional cycles before the VBL hit, much as I'm sure they would have loved to!

Quote: "i remember the Amiga magazing CU Amiga which later became PC Gamer had a special report at the time pushing it that it was the first game to make use of the Amiga's faster sync rates."


I have all issues of CU Amiga, Turrican3 was in the Nov. 93 issue, earned a respectable 85% (because most of the game was just a rip of the Mega Drive "Mega Turrican" release and wasn't actually original content) but (strangely enough) doesn't mention any kind of technical frame rate wizardy in a single sentance in the two page review (pages 84 and 85 if you'd like to check). The game was and always will be awesome, but let's keep things in perspective here.

Cheers,

Rich

"It's easy to be mean when death equals a high score screen."
"You can take your Quake and go away, I'd rather play Bubble Bobble any day."
OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 24th Nov 2003 14:00
What do I get for listing the Amiga's processor chip names !?

Its funny really, I can remember the Amiga's chip names, but I cant remember Acorn's RiscPC ones - and I had that computer much longer than my Amiga...


Mirrors are more fun than television. Well, that was fun, in a not-so-fun sort of way...
Andy Igoe
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Posted: 24th Nov 2003 14:17
Quote: "I thought the Amiga 500 ran at around 7.2Mhz? Less than the standard ST (8Mhz),"


They ran the same speed (at least in terms of CPU clock speed). PAL versions of each machine where slightly slower than NTSC (Never Twice Same Colour) machines.

Quote: "Never heard of an 11Mhz 680XX chip though. Think it was about 14 or 15 after the 7Mhz, but don't think it was a 68000, probably 68020 or something."


It was a 68010. A direct pin for pin replacement processor. You could just swap over the chip in an A500 with a 68010 but you also had to solder on a new quartz oscilliator (crystal) to raise the clock speed.

Quote: "I remember a friend of mine was getting a 68040 Amiga near the end, which if I remember rightly, ran at between 30-35Mhz. Pretty speedy."


The 68040 came in 30 and 40Mhz versions, to my recollection.

Quote: "Does anyone know what happened to that Amiga project? Where some people where basically putting together a new Amiga using bits from modern PC's? So still using Amiga bits, but with modern video cards etc."


It is sort of still happening, visit [href]www.amiga.com[/href]. The Amiga technology has become the framework for a kind of OS environment. It's a dead project really, and suffers all the marketting shortfalls of C= and Escom with a bit of added unviability about it.

Quote: "One of the biggest mistakes in C='s history was NOT including a byte per pixel mode in AGA, apparently they were holding it over for the AGA+, and the infamous AAA next generation of chips. Erm, now that was wise .. Anyway, To set the scene, in early 90's 3D was really taking off. These were the days of software renderers, where everybody (including myself) used to write their own engine from the ground up. "


Biggest mistake C= ever made was getting Sachi & Sachi to advise them of how to market computers. S&S, better known for their association with the then government of the time (Conservative party), said that people fear computers and they should make them like a VCR. The CDTV was born, C= invested heavily, and sold about 12 units.

The AAA chipset was never lost, it was still in Jeff Porters loft long after he left C=. I had the privelege of working with Jeff albiet in different offices, and frankly the AAA chipset is just the tip of the iceberg. He had a 3D chipset Amiga designed a decade before 3dfx & powerVR - although not as powerful as the PC versions to appear later given the day they where quite something, a DSP sound system was another that never got out of his garage.

According to Medi Ali (sp), the owner of C=, the computer games industry would never adopt 3D and consequently the chipset never appeared.

Quote: "fastest 68k amiga processor was the 68080 which ran at 33.87mhz"


The fastest chip in the 68000 series was the 68060, there was no 68080 to my knowledge, and certainly not during the lifetime of the Amiga. The 68060 was available in 50 and 60Mhz versions at the time, although I only ever saw the 50Mhz version myself which was an expansion made available for the A4000 series.

As for £3 Spectrum games, I remember when the price went up to £1.95 and being horrified because I could no longer buy as many games. These where the days when pretty much every game released resulted in another millionaire. Apparantly the software industry doesn't make any money selling games for £40 despite the globalisation of the industry. I wonder why.


God created the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.
Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 24th Nov 2003 14:25
Quote: "As for £3 Spectrum games, I remember when the price went up to £1.95 and being horrified because I could no longer buy as many games."


Went up to £1.95?

I forgot that I got my £3:00 speccy games from a shop owned by a family member of Elite. They were cheaper than retail.

Pincho.
OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 24th Nov 2003 14:31 Edited at: 24th Nov 2003 14:34
Quote: "Apparantly the software industry doesn't make any money selling games for £40 despite the globalisation of the industry."

Probably why there are fewer games coming out for the PC and more for the consoles...

If Commodore hadn't done the CD32 (and the C64GS as well), then they could have lasted a lot longer and probably would have grown stonger.


Mirrors are more fun than television. Well, that was fun, in a not-so-fun sort of way...
Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 24th Nov 2003 14:44 Edited at: 24th Nov 2003 14:46
Somebody around here should make a site for us to sell our games on! Now that's a good idea! The cheap PC games in the shops are crappy! I don't trust some websites that sell games for you, but I would trust TGC to sell my games, or Apps. They could have a percentage, like £5, and I get the rest. We could even include our code, and it would be great for Newbies to learn from. All situated where DBPro is sold. So they could try our stuff, and might be tempted to buy DBPro.

Pincho.
Andy Igoe
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Posted: 24th Nov 2003 15:31
Quote: "If Commodore hadn't done the CD32"


Actually the CD32 nearly saved C=. At the time of launch they where struggling badly from the losses incurred by the CDTV. The CD32 was hugely sucessful and probably earned them more money than the A1200. Alas, it was not enough and the ailing giant went to sleep. David Pleasance wrote a song about it, but thankfully nobody listened.

Quote: "Went up to £1.95?"


Aye. Where were you in 1982?


God created the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.
OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 24th Nov 2003 15:34
I doubt the CD32 was a great success...


Mirrors are more fun than television. Well, that was fun, in a not-so-fun sort of way...
Andy Igoe
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Posted: 24th Nov 2003 15:55
Quote: "I doubt the CD32 was a great success..."


It was not a great success because C= still went bust.

However it was still hugely sucessful. At the time of C= demise I was working in the Amiga industry alongside such technie idols as Dave Haynie and Jeff Porter and a few other slightly less noteable names with a strong connection to the Amiga industry. Although I wouldn't claim to know the financial comings and going of C= I do have some insights and my understanding is that the CD32 was the last effort by them to stay afloat and by all accounts did a good job, just not good enough.

The general consensus is that Commodore's bankruptcy was for the most part due to bad industry judgement on the part of Medi Ali (again, I still cant spell his name) and on the seriously bad advise given by Sachi & Sachi over the CDTV fiasco.

The advise S&S gave by the way, was that because people feered computers and did not understand them, but where totally happy with video recorders, that a computer should be a VCR.

However put that into perspective: It's a VCR that cannot play or record videos, so what does it do? At the time there was this big industry buzz word called 'Multimedia' and that became associated with the CDTV, ironically it's bigger brothers the A600 and A3000, and subsequent A1200 and A4000, where all far better suited to multimedia applications than the CDTV was.

The kings of multimedia on the Amiga where, and i'm biased because I worked for them, the worlds largest Amiga software house: Scala. They had a CDTV there when I joined them. It was probably broken, dusty, and had not been used since the invention of electricity.

In short the CDTV was a product designed to fullfill a place in the market that didn't exist. It wasn't a VCR, and it wasn't a computer. It couldn't do VCR tasks, and it wasn't a complicated computer that people did not understand and because it was neither there was no place for it.

In short Sachi & Sachi made the Windows XP mistake: In feering computers they turned the computer into something else, and in so doing destroyed all demand for it. Likewise Windows XP, I am told, is an operating system. Yet it hides away all of the technical features and configurability that all other operating systems provide and reduces itself to a 600mb program launching menu, the likes of which used to be popular in the days of MS-DOS in the form of colourful DOS based menu's that where about 200kb in size, and the simple batch file selection menus of computer techiedom.


God created the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.
KNau
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Posted: 24th Nov 2003 16:21
I love how Windows has inflated to almost a gigabyte in size when Amiga Kickstart fit on one floppy disk and did most of the same work. *sigh* I miss my Amiga

http://www.canceriannewmedia.com
OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 24th Nov 2003 16:25 Edited at: 24th Nov 2003 16:31
I think it started before CDTV - and probably with the C128, which whilst rather nice didn't really make people want to buy it.
There was certainly a lot of bad management though.

I think the computing world would probably be a lot better if Windows had been totally defeated - first of all the lousy Intel processor wouldn't be used and the GUI would be a lot better and probably more stable. Plus if everyone had taken Acorn's route and put the OS in ROM, all computers would just require a couple of seconds of booting time.

The only people capable of taking on Microsoft (at least for the home market) is Apple, but I feel that they just want to concentrate on iTunes. Wouldn't be surprised if they come out of the computer market altogether in 5 years or so.

What Apple need to do is allow 3rd party manufacturers to make Apple computers (again) - this would bring down the prices and increase the availiabilty.


Mirrors are more fun than television. Well, that was fun, in a not-so-fun sort of way...
Andy Igoe
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Posted: 24th Nov 2003 16:40
Unfortunately the last time Apple did that they almost bankrupted themselves. The company would need complete restructuring in order to loose the proceeds of their hardware sales, even though they aren't particularly profitable the fact is their infrastructure is huge, and the costs have to be covered somehow.

Whilst many commentators condemn Apple for perseveering on their hardware the point is changing the business so dramatically into a purely software role would be a huge and extremely risky undertaking, and there is no reason I can conceive that makes me believe Apple could compete against a lisenced manufacturer any better than they did last time.

And frankly, OSX is bloody aweful. It is like XP, only slower, with less functionality, less error feedback, less support, and more expensive in post-sale support and in hardware to run it.


God created the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.

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