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Geek Culture / Microsoft acknowledged Windows 8 as a mistake

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mr Handy
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Posted: 12th May 2013 22:00
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Via Financial Times. This article is an image (text protection).



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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 12th May 2013 22:08
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And yet, I still like it as an operating system. I must be weird or something.

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PAGAN_old
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Posted: 12th May 2013 22:53
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This can only mean 1 thing. Windows 9 is gonna be great. Notice how MS systems get it right every other system they come out with?

dont hate people who rip you off,cheat and get away with it, learn from them
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mr Handy
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Posted: 12th May 2013 23:07
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@PAGAN
this.

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CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 12th May 2013 23:26
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They still try and label it as a commercial success, with the millions of licenses sold.

I don't mind W8, but then I don't use Metro and it's on a very petite computer.
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Yodaman Jer
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Posted: 12th May 2013 23:54
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I imagine they'll rectify their mistakes by doing either one of two things.

Option 1 - You can choose whether or not you want to use the new interface or not, or

Option 2 - The computer you buy will have a version of Windows 8.1 (or 9 or whatever they eventually call it) that comes with either the new start screen (basically how it is now), or with the standard start menu and WITHOUT any of the new start screen.

Interesting to see they finally admitted their mistakes with it. I like Windows 8, but they royally screwed themselves over by making almost no effort to show people how to actually use it, or to give the users the option of using the new features or sticking with the old. Too bad, it could've been a great innovation if they just taught people about it!

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Thraxas
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Posted: 12th May 2013 23:58
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Quote: "And yet, I still like it as an operating system. I must be weird or something. "


I'm with you. After my initial frustrations with installation I prefer it to 7.

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Libervurto
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Posted: 13th May 2013 00:07 Edited at: 13th May 2013 00:10
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Quote: "Analysts warned that changing course would be a significant admission of failure"

Why is admitting failure seen as a bad thing? This really pisses me off because the only people who are fooled when companies and politicians don't acknowledge their mistakes are ignorant people who knew nothing about the subject in the first place; the informed minority are already well aware of the failure long before it is admitted. This is why it serves to be dishonest in business and politics. [/rant]

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MrValentine
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Posted: 13th May 2013 00:14
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Why is the new menu seen as a failure? It works, and fulfills its duty, calling it a failure is like saying, well my new Ferrari is not as good as my Ducati....... You just don't compare them...

I agree not enough want into educating the masses but Win8 by far is an excelling OS, nothing wrong with it and sadly it is too long since a previous release that people forget nothing works out of the box, not even space flight...

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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 13th May 2013 00:24
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Quote: "Why is the new menu seen as a failure?"
It's unfamiliar, cumbersome, limiting, and simply does not work as it should for desktop users. It's a VAST change over previous interfaces.

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mr Handy
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Posted: 13th May 2013 00:30
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@All
Don't forget that you all here are computer geeks, you are familiar with OS; Windows 8 may be bought by an old or computer-unfriendly person, even for the first time.

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Muzzles56
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Posted: 13th May 2013 01:28
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I adore windows 8 in every aspect. Microsoft might be saying this because of he "Windows 8 sucks" circlejerk that is around the internet and has been since announcement

Specs: AMD FX-8120 8-Core Processor (3.1GHz) / Radeon 7770 / 16GB RAM / Windows 8 Pro 64 Bit
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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 13th May 2013 01:32
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No, I don't think it's a jerkcircle, Windows 8 really does suck and MS needs to hold accountability for that.

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the_winch
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Posted: 13th May 2013 02:07
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Really Microsoft needed Windows 8 to do at least one if not both of these,

1) Slow the decline in PC sales.
2) Gain significant market share on mobile devices.

The mobile device market is still dominated by Apple and Android and the same time the decline in PC sales has accelerated.

That's why it's a failure. It has failed to achieve its strategic aims.

By way of demonstration, he emitted a batlike squeak that was indeed bothersome.
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Yodaman Jer
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Posted: 13th May 2013 02:37
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Quote: "Don't forget that you all here are computer geeks, you are familiar with OS; Windows 8 may be bought by an old or computer-unfriendly person, even for the first time."


See, this is what I think too. My father, for example, is completely computer illiterate; he barely knows how to use the old Start Menu, so Windows 8 would just freak him out, make him mad, and he wouldn't want anything to do with it, because for the last 20 years he hasn't even been able to figure out the "old style" of computing.

Microsoft did next to nothing to educate people on how to actually USE Windows 8. Sure, they released a few videos, but that's not nearly enough. They should have had a little interactive guide thing that when you first started your computer, it showed you how to actually USE the new interface. But I guess they thought a tutorial would be a bad thing?

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Libervurto
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Posted: 13th May 2013 03:15
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I fail to see how a decline in PC sales has anything to do with Windows 8.

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xplosys
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Posted: 13th May 2013 04:04
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Quote: "I fail to see how a decline in PC sales has anything to do with Windows 8."


There was also a decline in PC sales when Vista came out. The reason is that whenever Microsoft puts out a new OS, they force retail removal of the previous one, so all new systems offer only the new OS. When people refused to buy new computers with Vista, Microsoft had to reverse that decision and bring XP back as an option, and extend XP support for more years. After all, it's ultimately about sales.

As alredy mentioned, not all computer users are young or savy, and theres a large business base too. A drastic departure from the norm causes PC sales to slump because the learning curve/time/cost factor is too high for companies and us old people to bear. Couple that with the fact that there is nothing W8 can do that W7 can't and you have a loser. There's no new technology that requires an upgrade to W8, which might have made it worth while.
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Crazy Acorn
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Posted: 13th May 2013 05:08
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Windows 7 is garbage too, was a mistake going away from Vista, I don't ever want to acknowledge 8

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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 13th May 2013 05:27
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Quote: "Windows 7 is garbage too, was a mistake going away from Vista, I don't ever want to acknowledge 8 "
You O.K. mate?

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Crazy Acorn
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Posted: 13th May 2013 06:02
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Windows 7 has been giving me hell and BSOd's. Vista was heaven

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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 13th May 2013 06:16 Edited at: 13th May 2013 06:16
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Is your physical computer O.K, then??

D=

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Crazy Acorn
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Posted: 13th May 2013 07:07
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Yes it is ok, Vista had no BSOD's until HardDrive failed (8 years old). Then I decided to get Windows 7 with 1TB HDD. BSOD all over the floor!

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Burger
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Posted: 13th May 2013 07:49
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Quote: "there is nothing W8 can do that W7 can't"


This to me is the ultimate reason I stuck with Windows 7. I'm familiar with it, understand it and so why use an operating system that gives me no advantage whatsoever, if not a disadvantage? Although I do realise that disadvantage is simply me not knowing, and if I used Windows 8 I'm sure I'd come to learn it. But my point is why bother?

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easter bunny
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Posted: 13th May 2013 08:02
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Quote: "there is nothing W8 can do that W7 can't"

W7 can't run Metro apps...
but I see what you mean, after all, for the 'professional', Metro is 99% useless (Hard-core Gamers, programmers, authors, 3d modelers, image editingors)

The only thing I use the Metro interface on my W8 Laptop is the check the weather app, which is normally wrong anyway!

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mr Handy
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Posted: 13th May 2013 08:40
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Quote: "W7 can't run Metro apps..."

I am working and entertaining on W7 and never thought of any "apps". Facebook apps? What apps? Everything I need, if I need, is on the Sourceforge.

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easter bunny
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Posted: 13th May 2013 08:44
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Quote: "I am working and entertaining on W7 and never thought of any "apps". Facebook apps? What apps? Everything I need, if I need, is on the Sourceforge."

I totally agree, I find Metro useless, but it's something W8 can do that W7 can't.
Quote: "The only thing I use the Metro interface on my W8 Laptop is the check the weather app, which is normally wrong anyway!"


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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 13th May 2013 10:12
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I know windows 8 has the refresh feature, which is useful and bitlocker is on the pro version (which is available on 7 ultimate). Not necessarily worth the upgrade for some.

As for metro, I use it and actually prefer it as an interface, there are some metro apps I use : Netflix, OneNote, Messenger and iCookbook mostly. I would use the Ocado App, like I do on my WP7, but the Win8 version sucks, so I tend to just use the website.

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Kezzla
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Posted: 13th May 2013 11:53
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I installed windows classic shell and went back to start menu and desktop as soon as I were able. With this little addon Windows 8 is fine. besides being a little heavy handed with access to program folders.
I wouldn't call it a failure, If i were on a tablet the metro interface would probably be fine.

I'm not a complete idiot -- Some parts are just missing.
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Van B
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Posted: 13th May 2013 11:57
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She hit the nail on the head when she mentioned problems with people mastering the software.

See, an operating system shouldn't have to be mastered! - your PC is not some wonderful puzzle full of surprises and cool gestures and cute pictures of kids and cats and sub-indi pop videos... No, a PC is a PC, and if you can't work Windows7 then stay the hell away, because a PC is not for you. You know what killed Windows8 - it's that bloody advert with the click-clack-clickety clack douchebags with the weird dancing and robotics and all my hatred. I wonder if that's the sound it makes when hitting concrete from 3 stories up.

Windows8 does it's best to assume that the end user is a moron who can't undertstand anything more complex than an iPad, maybe with the intellect level of Holly Wiloughbooby or James Cordon or a walnut. My keyboard and mouse cost me a lot of money, I'd like to continue to use them please, if that doesn't go against evolution too much.

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mr Handy
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Posted: 13th May 2013 12:20
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Quote: "Netflix, OneNote, Messenger and iCookbook"

One note comes with Office, I suppose most of us have it. The others... there are W7 free alternatives or just web sites with same features.

Also some Apple apps gain popularity better, such as electronic magazines.

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 13th May 2013 23:43
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Oh, I didn't say there weren't alternatives in Windows 7, only that I prefer the metro interface and those are apps I like using. When people were upgrading to Vista or 7 people tended to use similar argument, "well, I can do everything I need in XP", which is perhaps true, but people still moved on eventually, whether it's via upgrades or getting a newer OS on a newer computer and just sticking with it. I only used Vista because it came with my PC and same for 7. In the Vista days if I had a choice I would have gone XP, but frankly didn't think it was worth my paying for the downgrade...particularly as at the time I was poor student.

Windows 8 was the first Windows upgrade I've ever bought and it was cheap enough for me to justify it.

Yes, I know of the alternatives in Windows 7. For the record, I have Office 2007, 2010 and 2013, but only 2013 installed. However, I find using the W8 app version convenience as well. Normally I'll dock it to the right of my desktop, yes I can dock things with desktop apps, but I find it more convenient with how it works with metro apps and so I use one.

Yes, it wouldn't make much of a case to convince somebody to upgrade to Windows 8 and I only did it because it cost me £25 to do and I haven't regretted the decision. But I don't have any objections, my new PC has Windows 8 and it cost the same as Windows 7 and I had the choice and I felt Windows 8 was the better choice. But I wouldn't pay £100 for an upgrade disk, I don't think the advantages would be worth it, personally. Regardless I find for me, there are advantages...mainly to do with ergonomics and convenience. I found it really easy to get the hang of as well, not sure why some folks have found it difficult.

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Burger
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Posted: 14th May 2013 10:55
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Quote: "not sure why some folks have found it difficult."


Too used to the standard layout of Windows?
Although as I understand its not really that different . . .

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 14th May 2013 11:50
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Quote: "Too used to the standard layout of Windows?
Although as I understand its not really that different . . ."


I've used the standard Windows interface for the most of my life, but the difference in how you use it isn't staggering. All you really need to do is live by 2 principle, drag your mouse to a corner and also learn to use your right mouse button more. That's all you really need to learn how to use it without consulting any kind of manual.

I've seen some video reviews where people are making out it's really difficult to use and they've tried everything to work their way around basic functions, yet the answer to what they're doing is very simple. For example, closing a metro app? To view the currently open metro apps move the mouse to the top left corner. Simply right click on the app and hit close. It's like deleting a file on the desktop or closing a program on your taskbar. Not exactly difficult to figure out. When you first start up Windows 8, it tells you to move your mouse to a corner in order to operate the new interface, so it's not like it's a wild guess.

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Van B
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Posted: 14th May 2013 12:38
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It's not that people find it difficult, at least I don't think that's the case.

People are annoyed because it does so much differently to all previous versions of Windows. No start bar, and we need to right click then close to close a metro app. But why? - What is wrong with a red X at the top right, and a start button at the bottom left?

Microsoft change things for the sake of change - there's nothing there that's actually an improvement, because that's not the experience I want from a PC. There is a reason why other industries stick to their own standards. Cars tend to have pedals, gear stick or gear selector, and a steering wheel. If Microsoft developed a car we'd drive the thing using swipe gestures and hand signals then they'd go back to a steering wheel for v2.0. It's like they don't even recognize the pattern of every other version of Windows being diabolical, just keeping the R&D department in unnecessary busy work. There are better things to fix in Windows than the UI. Windows8 should have been an optional front end for Windows7 on PC's.

I got a fever, and the only prescription, is more memes.
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CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 14th May 2013 21:11
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I think the whole "PC sales are in decline" is kind of misrepresented. When they say PC sales, are they still referring to someone walking into Curry's and buying a premade unit?

If so, then of course they're in decline, because 99% of people I know who get a gaming PC build it from parts off Amazon. What MS are losing is the general Facebook legions of people who don't use a computer for anything other than social networking, and those guys simple gun for small and shiny.

The power users won't buy a tower from PC World, they just upgrade and have a big rebuild every 3-5 years or so, and they might update to a new version of Windows then. The smartphone market is hoovering up the lower denominators of the computing world, while Linux has started to nibble at the higher, with a little bit of help from Valve.

I think Microsoft is finding itself marginalised because PC sales are marginalised. I can't remember the last time someone I know bought a laptop, (aside from my buying a netbook. I love their portability and cheap price.) Tablets are also a dead point around here, too. Noone I know of even possesses an iPad, nothing greater than disused, generic Android tablets. Smartphones, though, are all the rage, and I admit my Lumia is now the major thing I use aside from my PC and netbook at evenings.

It's a shame MS aren't denting the market to a great degree, because the Lumia 820 I have really is a great and slick phone, and Windows Phone 8 really is a nice operating system in my opinion. I like the Live Tiles function.

The store sucks, though. Search "Facebook," and there are ten results or so. The Microsoft one ranks lowest among them, and there's too many sudden free trials that spring the cost on you after a day of use.

I think if they got their act together cleaning up the store to put quantity over quality, then we could they could have something good. Oh, and if they could stop screwing over netbooks by disabling Metro apps for screens under 1034*768, that would also be nice.
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Jimpo
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Posted: 14th May 2013 22:09
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CoffeeGrunt, it's interesting how opposite our situations are! I only know one person who built his own PC, and only one other friend owns a desktop. Everyone else has laptops. A laptop is simply required for the people I know. People need to take them to class, bring them to meet up with groups to work on projects, bring their laptops over to a friends apartment for late night gaming sessions, etc.

Don't take it the wrong way! Not saying you're wrong or trying to debate the percentage of people who build their own laptops, just thought it was interesting how different our situations were.

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 14th May 2013 22:41
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I think Coffee is right. But I think people do still make use of towers and they're people who aren't hardcore gamers, generally I think they are bought as office computers or people looking to buy a brand they know or in some cases, gamers, but with the latter, I would say people generally prefer their own custom PC because for one thing, they're a lot better value for money and there's a lot of options for customisation. Though I would split them into two groups, people who build them themselves and those who pay somebody to build them (like me).

People I know typically have a custom build gaming PC, a gaming laptop or both. For me, I went the gaming laptop option first, regretted and a couple of months ago, took the customer build option and I am super chuffed, I didn't pay a lot and it's a good quality build and it's exactly what I wanted for the price I wanted. If I bought in store for the specs I've got, I would have paid a lot more.

At the same time there are folks who are unaware that it's cheaper, or people who trust brands or simply aren't computer literate enough.

Of course tablets seem to be playing a part. People who want a device for the internet and for basic computer needs, a tablet will suffice and is generally a lot more convenience. My dad and my sister both have laptops and iPads. Most of their day-to-day stuff is done on their iPad, I'm the only poor soul who can be seen in the kitchen with a laptop, like I am now whilst I'm cooking my dinner. It don't bother me because it suits my needs. However, a tablet is definitely a bigger convenience, it's not worth the money for me. However, I do have a Nokia Lumia 800 smart phone, so it does cater to some conveniences.

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Nickydude
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Posted: 15th May 2013 13:56
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I have a desktop PC and a laptop and use the desktop pc way more than the laptop. My PC is on it's way out and I'll be getting a replacement desktop PC but without Windows 8, I do a lot of work on my PC (video editing, music editing, graphical work) and certainly don't want to be grappling with a new OS that will slow the work down.

Sorry, but definitely no Windows 8 for me.

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CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 15th May 2013 21:17
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I think they should allow a trial of Windows 8, or something like that. So you can get used to it without the upfront cost.

I like the debate on computers with friends. My friends all bought gaming laptops, and had replaced them within a year because they just couldn't keep up. It was when they started chugging on Minecraft while my '06 Dell Dimension keeps going through that they went the self-built tower route. We collabed a bunch of people together for each, and so far they've gone well.

I understand the need for a gaming laptop though.
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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 15th May 2013 23:34
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Yeah, I sorta regret going the gaming laptop option, by all means I loved my Acer (until it died and since its been fixed, its been underachieving) but you simply lack the upgradeability and quality hardware of a desktop. The advantage of a desktop is that you're less likely to overheat and reduce the life of your hardware as well.

Still, kudos to a friend of mine who's had his gaming laptop for over 3 years now and he still plays modern games, not to the same quality as I can, but he's not held back by it, given we co-op in Borderlands 2 quite nicely.

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BatVink
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Posted: 17th May 2013 00:25
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I'm running Windows 8, with Pokki installed. This gives you the start menu back on the desktop side.

With both options available, I use the Win7 desktop style, I have not found any redeeming feature of the new UI. Even typing to find what you need is harder in the new UI, because you have to flip between 3 subsets (apps, settings, files). In Win 7, you press the win key, start typing and see everything.

The most annoying feature to date is the PDF viewer. It's the most cumbersome, user unfriendly viewer ever. Creating many PDFs each week, I can say it's an epic failure.

I have a touchscreen and a standard Ultrabook, the touchscreen is slightly easier on the menu, but incompatible with a hi-res display. Pressing the right button on a decent resolution is never going to happen, Windows needs to add more intelligence other than hitting the icon. It needs action grammar, where it can work out in what context you missed what you intended to do.

As for my desktop - the 3 monitors are more than an arm's length away, and I'm not going to invest in or try to manipulate three touchscreens. You can't swipe from one screen to another as you drag resources like you can with a mouse. I guess multi-screens and desktops didn't really feature in Microsoft's market research.

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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 17th May 2013 12:05
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I've only seen W8 once when someone gave a demonstration at our local computer club. My immediate reaction was "Oh no! They've built it around all the modern features I detest and find awkward to use."

But then I said something similar when Windows first appeared and I certainly wouldn't go back to the old style DOS now.

So I guess only time will tell as usual. I think I'll reserve final judgement on this till I've had some real experience of W8 (assuming that ever happens).

But I do wonder how this new style is supposed to simplify things - otherwise what's the point of it? If it ain't broken, don't fix it.
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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 17th May 2013 13:03
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Quote: " If it ain't broken, don't fix it. "


My old boss at Cash Converters had the same attitude, hence all of the computers there still ran DOS.

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xplosys
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Posted: 17th May 2013 14:13
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Quote: "hence all of the computers there still ran DOS."


The beauty of being able to run your business in DOS is not having to worry about your employees wasting time on solitaire, FaceBook, and porn sites. (Not that it's impossible to do)

Brian.
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mr Handy
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Posted: 17th May 2013 14:46
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Quote: "your employees wasting time on solitaire, FaceBook, and porn sites."

I believe your sysadmin is just bribed!

«Just because you’re unique, doesn’t mean you’re useful»
«If you contributed to the reason for locking, you may now find yourself on moderation, or in extreme cases in the grave»
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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 17th May 2013 22:54
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Quote: "The beauty of being able to run your business in DOS is not having to worry about your employees wasting time on solitaire, FaceBook, and porn sites. (Not that it's impossible to do)"


To correct myself, there were 2 WinXP PCs for the use of web browsing, simply because in a second hand store it's useful to see what prices people are selling stuff online. And people used Facebook. As for porn, well, there was one guy who sold us a laptop - yeah, that was a nice surprised for the supervisor. Given most of the pictures were of the guy's junk apparently. We disinfected the laptop with anti-bacterial wipes, just in case.

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mr Handy
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Posted: 17th May 2013 23:04
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Quote: "with anti-bacterial wipes,"

You mean with acid bath?

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Jeku
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Posted: 19th May 2013 07:20 Edited at: 19th May 2013 07:20
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Quote: "They still try and label it as a commercial success, with the millions of licenses sold."


Surely that could be considered the definition of commercial success

I like Windows 8 a lot, but as soon as it starts up I switch to Desktop mode immediately. It\'s a bit of a pain having to switch to the Metro desktop just for a fast way to open up a program that doesn\'t have its icon on the desktop or quick start bar, however.


Senior Developer - CBS Interactive Music Group
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DevilLiger
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Posted: 21st May 2013 02:24
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Loved 8. just hate that weird interface at start up. other than that it is fast and runs fine. they should stick with 8 for awhile until it begins to rot and learn from it more instead of releasing a new one every few years. imo lol
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Chris Tate
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Posted: 21st May 2013 03:03 Edited at: 21st May 2013 03:16
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Quote: "If Microsoft developed a car we'd drive the thing using swipe gestures and hand signals then they'd go back to a steering wheel for v2.0."


@Van B

Hehe, and people get paid millions to think up ideas like this...

Quote: "I've only seen W8 once when someone gave a demonstration at our local computer club. My immediate reaction was "Oh no! They've built it around all the modern features I detest and find awkward to use.""


@Green Gandalf

Yep, similar reaction here; welcome to the 'Oh no!! Microsoft WTF ya doin club'.

They really tried very hard to be hip and cool like Apple; bless them. Bit like Donald Trump trying to dress up street style for a Jay Z after party.

Just stick to what your good at; you don't see Apple trying to compete with Office or the XBox, so I wonder why Microsoft feel they can just waltz into the touch market with a borderline 'me too' product without being out performed by the top dogs and upsetting the corporate client market they dominate.

Still underneath, it is the latest WPF enhanced .NET framework 4.5 operating system, so technically W8 is the most versatile and advanced domestic OS in the world. Goes to show how the marketing and strategic department can mess things up.

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