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Geek Culture / Why Has No One Made A Better Minecraft?

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Libervurto
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Posted: 30th May 2013 07:51 Edited at: 30th May 2013 07:53
I'm going to be pretty damming here so I should start by making it clear that I love Minecraft. I think it has done a marvellous thing in giving kids an outlet for their creativity and reigniting the imaginations of many adults who had let theirs drain away over the years. I think redstone is bloody clever, and I'm really excited about the future of the game as it looks like Mojang want to give map builders more tools (such as command blocks) to make their own stories and games with.

So if Minecraft is so great, what am I complaining about? Well in reality it isn't great, it's terrible. It is one of the most poorly optimised games I've ever played, and maybe that's unavoidable using an out-dated platform like Java, but it's not only performance that is an issue.

The game is bloody ugly, and I'm not blaming that on blocky geometry; we've seen plenty of games pull off the minimalist aesthetic far better than Minecraft has done. True, there are texture-packs and mods like "connected textures" that help somewhat, and then there is the shaders mod (which really helps!) but crushes an already poor frame-rate down to virtually unplayable levels. But even when we look past the visual shortcomings of the game there are still further issues.

The game mechanics of survival mode (the "game" part of Minecraft) are completely counter-intuitive, dull, repetitive, and worst of all tend to either be at odds with each other or completely broken all together. Let me just walk you through the first five minutes or so to give you an idea of how broken this mode is:

1. You are spawned into the world and immediately run to the nearest tree.
2. You punch the tree to gather wood. Okay, we can excuse this being a bit odd since it's a game, but aren't we missing out on some opportunities for game-play here? wouldn't it be good to go looking for flints to craft into tools like hand axes?
3. You make a crafting table with the wood and, using your new crafting table, construct a wooden pickaxe with the left-over wood. Again, it's nonsensical to make a pickaxe out of wood, but we'll let it go.
4. You find a cave and mine three blocks of stone.
5. You make a stone pickaxe and throw out your wooden one. The wooden pickaxe was useful for just a few seconds and the rest of the wooden tools never had a reason to be crafted. From here-on we have a ready supply of stone for our tools.
6. Once you find iron you can make iron tools, and although it is not as ubiquitous as stone, you should still have plenty of iron from this point onwards and never have to go back to stone tools. At least this time you might have had to make a stone axe or sword before you found enough iron to replace them.

Right, are we all bored of going through steps now? So that seemed like a natural progression, but the problem is that it's so rapid it seems artificially tedious, a really dull start to the game. There really is nothing interesting about stone or wooden tools, they are just arbitrary statistical stepping stones in between you and better materials. Even later in the game, when more mechanics become involved, stone and wooden tools have no redeeming features; I think it would have been nice if wooden items could be given the most powerful enchantments, or something of that nature to stop them from being one-use disposable junk.

Are you still reading? I promise I will get to an original point and stop moaning about the game in a bit, but I have to outline a few more things first.

Now we are going to talk about monsters. These terrifying cuboids are the reason you need to rush around and build a shelter before nightfall, when then come crawling out of the darkness. This sounds like a brilliant motive for building some hefty defences, but in reality the monsters are no threat at all. So long as your reactions are good enough to hit them before they get too close you will rarely take any damage, the skeletal archers are the only mob that gives any sort of challenge, and the creepers are more of a fear tactic which at least encourages you to be alert when mining and build a shelter that is safe.
The combat itself is actually worse than Skyrim and probably the weakest part of the game overall. There is no opportunity for strategy or outwitting your opponents, unless they happen to be on the edge of a cliff or pool of lava.

But the fidelity of the combat isn't the real problem here, what makes the monsters in Minecraft so pathetic is that they never actively seek out the player, they only spawn in dark places where the player has either never been before or carelessly failed to light up sufficiently. Creepers will only explode if next to the player, and although zombies can now break down wooden doors, this takes a long time and they usually spawn alone. I have heard that sometimes a large group of zombies can spawn in an NPC village and attack them, the player needs that kind of threat too. Don't Starve achieved this by having regular "wolf" attacks that give the player something they must plan to deal with every few days. There is nothing of this nature in Minecraft.

This leads me on to one of the biggest problems with Minecraft: the world is static and unchanging. The world is largely baron with little sound, there are very few animals and no seasons. Again I'll reference Don't Starve, which uses the change in seasons as one of the core mechanics of the game. Unlike in Minecraft, where the player must quickly find shelter before nightfall and once his house is complete he will never worry again; in Don't Starve, there is a constant cycle of change where the player must plan for the coming winter and stockpile resources. Seasons allow for a refreshing cycle of game-play and aesthetics that keep the world from becoming too repetitive and lifeless. If there is one thing that I could add to Minecraft it would be seasons (along with some sort of heat mechanic to support it).

I'm done moaning, now is the time to talk about what Minecraft has going for it and what the game is actually about. There are three main aspects of Minecraft: Exploration, Logistics and Creativity. What's so good about the concept of Minecraft is that these three facets are rarely seen together in games. The problem with these facets is that they are not working together particularly well and are not fleshed out enough to be truly worthwhile on their own.

Exploration is the adventurous part of the game: the fighting, spelunking* and climbing hills to see the view.
The world is procedurally generated but the world generation doesn't seem to have much flexibility and never produces anything spectacular, only slight variations on what you've already seen before. There are some interesting dungeons (abandoned mines, temples, etc.) that can be found but I would like to see a lot more work put into creating richer and more diverse biomes with more unique plants, animals and resources (maybe even some PG of these entities for a bit more variety). The player is almost discouraged from exploring distant lands because 99% of resources are the same in every biome, travelling is more dangerous than staying at home and there is always the danger of getting lost and not finding your way back. There is no benefit to exploration at all, unless it's into a deep cave that you might find some diamonds in.

Logistics is about acquiring resources efficiently, getting them to the building site and planning how to construct your buildings.
This is the worst executed of the three. The ridiculously oversized inventory of the player negates the challenge of transporting materials, but there is also an insufficient means of transport for goods: mine-carts are impractical and there is no other form of haulage (although there will be pack mules in 1.6, will be interesting to see if inventory size is altered). Mods like Buildcraft and Industrialcraft introduce a lot of interesting logistics, but placed on top of the base game these become an added advantage on a playing field that is never levelled.
Mining efficiently requires a certain amount of strategy, but the reward isn't really sufficient. The problem is that mineral deposits are scattered relatively evenly all over the map, so there is no reason to set up a permanent mine (or as permanent as a mine can be) and often the most efficient way to find minerals is to go spelunking since it is faster to do.
As for planning and construction, I think the main issue here is that the landscape is too easy to subdue. It would be nice if there were more rock types that were harder to shift and forced you to design structures that fit in with the landscape rather than being able to flatten everything so easily. Farmers should have to deal with weeds and pests too.

Creativity is the most obvious aspect of Minecraft, the construction, but it's hampered by the limited selection of materials and block shapes available. Again there are mods that deal with these issues, Redpower being the stand-out for its architectural block pieces.

Conclusion
There are many more issues that I haven't gone over, such as the poor implementation of hunger and sleep, but I don't think it is necessary to.
So I return to the original question "Why Has No One Made A Better Minecraft?", we've seen a glimpse of how great a game this could be, but it's built on a shoddy framework that, to be fair, was never intended to be expanded so far. We've seen that there are many modders out there with talent, who have greatly vastly improved this game, but it's flawed at the core and needs to be completely reworked. Someone needs to start again from scratch on this idea and fulfil its potential. It looks like Mojang are gradually and slowly improving things but I'm really surprised there is still no Minecraft-clone that has made improvements on Notch's concept. If ever there was a game begging to be reworked it is this one.

* Spelunking - going into a cave system to look for exposed mineral deposits.

The difficulty in learning is not acquiring new knowledge but relinquishing the old.
Airslide
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Posted: 30th May 2013 07:59
More than I can read at the moment I'm afraid, but as for the relative uselessness of wooden tools - I've noticed that sort of problem in a lot of RPGs. It seems like the lowest class of weapon (or tool in this case) exists to be used for the < 5 minutes it takes to find the next higher up, if you don't already start with something better.

Probably just the design of various in game items not panning out with the final balance & progression.
Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 30th May 2013 10:14
I read the whole thing, but I'll address one thing that really stands out. You mentioned how creativity is hampered; it definitely is, I couldn't agree more! And I think one of the biggest creativity blocks in Minecraft is with crafting. It's possible to craft one of the items programmed into the game, but besides that, nothing at all is possible. For instance, in the real world, computers for example are not programmed into physics. But we use physics and such regardless and are able to make something that isn't programmed into physics, in this case a computer. With games such as Minecraft, again, you're limited to what the game is designed to handle. Redstone excels in that area; redstone computers are not programmed into the game mechanics but are still possible. Point I'm getting to is that allowing such things over a more broad category than just things dealing with redstone would be very nice indeed!
Van B
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Posted: 30th May 2013 11:15
I'm not convinced that the very idea of Minecraft can be technically much better. I mean, no matter how you look at it, no matter what language is used - managing that data, and the polygon throughput is always gonna be slow. Consider an infinitely massive world that updates itself - at some point the hard work has to be done, water flow has to be calculated, fire has to be calculated, every visible polygon has to be calculated.

It's a massive overhead and really I think it's at the limits of what can be done with conventional memory systems. What we need is better memory addressing, and plenty of it. We need new memory systems that can make a better Minecraft possible. Like, imagine if we could take a chunk of available memory, and define ourselves how it is addressed - like make it a 3D array instead of a 1D array... then so many optimizations would be possible that we'd look back and laugh at how slow MC is right now.

Of course, there's no point in relying on that, I don't imagine memory will do much more than just get bigger and faster - manufacturer's tend to just go with bigger numbers, and all that does is make programmers more and more lazy, it would be nice if the next generation of memory tech tried just a little to improve the bottlenecks etc that are holding us back.

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ShellfishGames
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Posted: 30th May 2013 11:16
A few friends of mine from Upvoid Studios are working on what they envision to become a "better minecraft" at some point. They overcame the blocky graphics and use marching cubes instead if I am not mistaken, which leads to much more natural landscapes.
They are not working on it full time and started just a few months ago, so it's far from finished, but I think there is some potential.



Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 30th May 2013 11:39
Whoa.

This is important:

Keep working on that game!!!
Van B
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Posted: 30th May 2013 12:03
Totally! - the world needs that game

Voxel games have always fascinated me, even good old Red Faction - I used to play that for hours with my son, just making daft tunnels.

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Burger
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Posted: 30th May 2013 12:15
And yet despite all these issues I've had such a great time with minecraft. For me personally,

-I've never had performance issues with minecraft
-I've mostly played in creative mode, because its fun to simply create with minimal barriers
-When I did play in survival, it was great fun! A definite sense of achievement when completing structures.
-You say about the repetitive world, and I say it hasn't bothered me before.

I could go on sooo much more, but it matters little. Perhaps I'm mistaken, but you say you love minecraft and yet you say

Quote: "Well in reality it isn't great, it's terrible"


that doesn't make a lot of sense, you're quite clearly contradicting yourself. It is not a terrible game, how can you say that so confidently when incredible amounts of others have had fantastic experiences with it? I've had minecraft crash on the odd occasion, reloaded it and no worries, thats about all.

Like I said, I could go on. Why Has No One Made A Better Minecraft?, because minecraft already does the job.

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Dark Frager
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Posted: 30th May 2013 12:48
The wooden/stone pickaxe thing makes no sense because that's like saying Blizzard should give everyone end-game raid gear from level one because they are going to replace it anyway at some point.

There are plenty of mods out there that greatly improve gameplay, and even performance so why not download them? It's simple and doesn't take more than 5 minutes.

I personally think Mojang has done enough for the game. A few more updates and they can call it finished.

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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 30th May 2013 12:56 Edited at: 30th May 2013 12:59
Quote: "-I've never had performance issues with minecraft"
Aye, you have very low standards for what is a well performing game, that or your computer is absolute top of the line...

Quote: "that doesn't make a lot of sense, you're quite clearly contradicting yourself. It is not a terrible game, how can you say that so confidently when incredible amounts of others have had fantastic experiences with it?"
I think you missed the point he was trying to make, his entire first paragraph stated how much he loves Minecraft... I mean, isn't what he posted exactly the point of constructively criticizing a game? Regardless of how fun any game is, there is room for improvement. You can't just say it's perfect just because you find it fun.

Quote: "because minecraft already does the job."
It does the job, but my friend, it could do so much better.
Dark Frager
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Posted: 30th May 2013 13:20
Quote: "It does the job, but my friend, it could do so much better."


That's why people make mods

Quote: "Aye, you have very low standards for what is a well performing game, that or your computer is absolute top of the line..."


I have a laptop with an i5, a GTX 260M and 4GB's of RAM. Not the absolute top of the line, but still doesn't lag. I mean, those specs are pretty standard for new computers now aren't they?

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Quik
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Posted: 30th May 2013 13:43
there are LOTS of minecraft "clones" in the making atm ._.'



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thenerd
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Posted: 30th May 2013 13:50 Edited at: 30th May 2013 13:50
Huge fan of Minecraft, so I'm biased

Personally, I think the flaws in Minecraft are part of what makes it so charming. Sure, it's illogical to literally go up to a tree and punch it but the first time I figured that out I just laughed and thought, "Of course." As a game, sure, Minecraft has terrible gameplay, bad optimization, and a million bugs. But that doesn't matter because it's one of the few games where you entirely create your own story. The flaws of Minecraft don't matter because the attractiveness of Minecraft isn't in the actual game, it's in the freedom that you're given. Half the fun of the game is in the emergent gameplay. And I enjoy Minecraft with the bugs. I actually think I'd enjoy it less if there were no chunk errors, no redstone bugs, no mob spawning mechanics to be exploited. This game is unique because it's the only game I've ever played where you can find a bug and say "We can create so much with this!". If the game world were flawless, I wouldn't get the same feeling of openness - Sometimes it's good to have a reminder that you're in a game, coded by a real person.

In addition, Minecraft singleplayer is the only game that's ever made me feel lonely. It might be a flawed game, but when I'm looking out towards the sun on a house I just built and I realize that I'm truely alone in this world, that's a feeling that games rarely create and I absolutely love that Minecraft can trigger feelings. Anyone who has enjoyed Minecraft for more than a couple hours has felt something when that music first starts playing. That says a lot that such a primitive game can create these feelings.

It also helps if you have a gaming pc Dark Frager, I have a laptop with i7, a GTX 555M, and 4Gb of RAM. Almost the same as you! and most games work pretty well on mine.I find the CPU is more of a bottleneck than the GPU.

Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 30th May 2013 13:55
And it's not so much overall performance issues I notice, just lag spikes and such. Redstone affects the performance of the game FAR more than it should. Optifine helps nicely, however.
Quik
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Posted: 30th May 2013 13:58
my laptops cant even run minecraft - or well... at like 5 FPS - with lowest settings

and i've had problems with crashing for some reason in the past >_<



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Libervurto
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Posted: 30th May 2013 20:47 Edited at: 30th May 2013 21:17
Quote: "you love minecraft and yet you say

Quote: "Well in reality it isn't great, it's terrible"

that doesn't make a lot of sense, you're quite clearly contradicting yourself."

I'm not contradicting myself at all. I love Minecraft but I also recognise that it's a badly made game, I like it in spite of that. A football fan might love Wycombe Wanderers but he knows they aren't the best team in the world.

Quote: "I've never had performance issues with minecraft"

You've never had lag, world holes, lighting glitches? You've never noticed the horrible seams between blocks that stand out as white or blue lines in the dark? You've never had your frame-rate drop below 20fps? Those are all pretty major concerns if you ask me.

Quote: "When I did play in survival, it was great fun! A definite sense of achievement when completing structures."

It is certainly a challenge, but as I said, the logistics of building in survival mode are undermined by other aspects of the game.

Quote: "You say about the repetitive world, and I say it hasn't bothered me before."

Wouldn't it be better if the world wasn't repetitive? Wouldn't it be better if there was a reason to go exploring, unique resources and items that could only be found in certain places or biomes? As it stands, the only diversity is in the colour of wood.

Quote: "I think one of the biggest creativity blocks in Minecraft is with crafting... in the real world... we use physics and such regardless and are able to make something that isn't programmed into physics... Redstone excels in that area; redstone computers are not programmed into the game mechanics but are still possible. Point I'm getting to is that allowing such things over a more broad category than just things dealing with redstone would be very nice indeed!"

This is a very good point that I didn't address. Minecraft doesn't make much use of its main asset: its voxel-based world. Redstone is a great example of how different cells interacting with each other allow for tonnes of variation and creativity.

Wouldn't it be fun if instead of "crafting a furnace" you actually built one with stone, lit a fire inside and smelted your ores? Think of all the variations on possible furnace designs, tricks for getting higher temperatures, ways of regulating the temperature, mechanisms for inserting the ores and extracting the molten metal and slag from the furnace.

That might sound complicated to code and possibly would be quite a drain on processing resources, but there are other far simpler examples of Minecraft's scant regard for its own world. Chests are magic boxes that can store thousands of blocks in one, this takes away a hell of a lot from the aesthetics of the game: think about how you might store your precious items, you'd hide them all in a hidden room in a single chest, how dull is that!? A treasure trove should be filled with piles of gold and littered with precious gems and artefacts, not a boring wooden box that holds anything from a single ingot to thousands of tonnes of gold. I want to walk into a storeroom and SEE all the piles of dirt and stone and minerals that have been gathered. Chests should only hold items that are smaller than a block.

The cause of this issue is the way blocks are treated exclusively as fixed objects that are fused to their surroundings and must be dug, chopped or carved out of the world. Why can't you pick anything up in Minecraft? Why do I have to chop at my crafting bench to move it? Why do I have to mine a block of gold that I've already mined before?

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Dark Frager
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Posted: 30th May 2013 21:06
Quote: "unique resources and items that could only be found in certain places or biomes?"


Uhh, jungle temples, emeralds, slimes, just to name a few...

Quote: "You've never had lag, world holes, lighting glitches? You've never noticed the horrible seams between blocks that stand out as white or blue lines in the dark? You've never had your frame-rate drop below 20fps? Those are all pretty major concerns if you ask me."


But that happens in all games, just in different ways, but no one complains about that.

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Libervurto
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Posted: 30th May 2013 21:49 Edited at: 30th May 2013 21:54
Quote: "Uhh, jungle temples, emeralds, slimes..."

Generated structures are nice additions to the world generator that add a bit of variety and a sense of adventure, but that's not what I'm talking about here. I want to see diversity that creates biomes with unique resources, plants and animals that can only live in certain environments, this is what fuels exploration and trade. Think of the spice trade and how many wars have been fought over things like spices and crude oil. These are the things that would encourage people to build an empire, not just a house.
I didn't know that emerald ore only appears in extreme hills biomes, that's a good start, but again Minecraft trips over itself here as well: there are no concentrated veins of emerald that could act as a valuable site to be held by a faction. Emerald mining is also undermined (lol) because it's much easier to obtain emeralds through trading with villagers.

Villages are very interesting and offer the sort of permanent resource that I was talking about, but the trouble is that emeralds are useless without villagers. There's no real advantage in fortifying a village and protecting the villagers and their emeralds, because if outsiders can't trade with the villagers they have no use for emeralds anyway. With the right configuration of villager trading offers you might be able to turn your wheat into iron, for example, and there's certainly room for interesting variations there, but I don't feel like it currently does much to aid the player. This is an interesting area of the game though and I'd like to see more improvements in this sort of thing. I haven't tried breeding villagers, this has potential to be a really good part of the game that brings a bit more strategy into it.

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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 30th May 2013 22:47
Quote: "But that happens in all games, just in different ways, but no one complains about that."
But you see, it doesn't happen in most other games. Granted, I don't actually play that many games but Minecraft really is a great example of poor optimization. Being still in development, I guess I can see why they haven't put a large emphasis on optimization quite yet.

Quote: "The cause of this issue is the way blocks are treated exclusively as fixed objects that are fused to their surroundings and must be dug, chopped or carved out of the world. Why can't you pick anything up in Minecraft? Why do I have to chop at my crafting bench to move it? Why do I have to mine a block of gold that I've already mined before?"
Ah!! Very good point, I quite like it. Indeed, blocks being more dynamic would be pretty cool.

Back to the redstone thing, I have had an idea for quite a while. Basically, it would be a block and using some special redstone table, you could create a redstone circuit that would all fit within this one block, and it would wirelessly communicate with other redstone objects in the world. Things like that would be nice for improving the overall creativity abilities the game gives you.

Also, things like oil would be really nice. I understand that many mods add oil, but oil is so crucial in the real world, why not in Minecraft?
Dark Frager
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Posted: 30th May 2013 22:57
Quote: "But you see, it doesn't happen in most other games."


That's why I said "just in different ways", minecraft's slow chunk loading could be the equivalent of a texture appearing blurry, but turning normal after a while in a different game.

Quote: "but oil is so crucial in the real world, why not in Minecraft? "


Notch should also implement a pooping system because that's crucial in the real world as well, right?

Quote: " I want to see diversity that creates biomes with unique resources, plants and animals that can only live in certain environments, this is what fuels exploration and trade."


But there is already enough exploration fueling things in minecraft, it's just up to you whether you want to explore it or not. Adding more biomes/variation is gonna make absolutely no change to the gameplay at all, because it's all the same thing anyway. You see it once, you get bored.

Quote: "Think of the spice trade and how many wars have been fought over things like spices and crude oil. These are the things that would encourage people to build an empire, not just a house."


Factions plugin. You make your own wars over what ever resources you want.

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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 30th May 2013 23:25
Quote: "Notch should also implement a pooping system because that's crucial in the real world as well, right?"
You obviously didn't get what I was trying to say. Well, a pooping system would be nice, right?
thenerd
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Posted: 31st May 2013 00:12
Quote: "Wouldn't it be fun if instead of "crafting a furnace" you actually built one with stone, lit a fire inside and smelted your ores? Think of all the variations on possible furnace designs, tricks for getting higher temperatures, ways of regulating the temperature, mechanisms for inserting the ores and extracting the molten metal and slag from the furnace."
Fun fact, the original way to smelt resources before furnaces were created was to toss the resource in lava, where it would bounce around and if you picked the item back up fast enough or created a system to collect them things could be smelted I like this idea though, many mods have done this. One thing I really want added to Minecraft is more complexity with the blocks. You're right, there could be so much more. Redstone is a start, but what about pipes, ways to create moving structures, bouyancy, better water physics... Imagine physically being able to build a boat in a dry dock, open the docks, and watch the boat float based on your design. That's something I want, the ability to create more dynamic structures.

Quik
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Posted: 31st May 2013 00:55
I wouldnt mind a pooping system...



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Libervurto
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Posted: 31st May 2013 02:05
Quote: "Factions plugin. You make your own wars over what ever resources you want."

You seem to be totally ignoring my point. There is nothing unique about any biome apart from aesthetics. Even the different trees can be harvested from their natural habitat and grown elsewhere with no problems. All you do in survival is stockpile resources in your safe house, once you have what you need you never need again. I want a world where you can't have everything in one place, to experience everything you must travel around and finding one cocoa pod and redwood sapling doesn't mean you never have to visit a jungle again.

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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 31st May 2013 02:37
I tried Minecraft for one day, but the game is like Lego Land, and that's a kiddy game. It felt kiddy to me.

Quik
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Posted: 31st May 2013 02:45
Quote: "that's a kiddy game. It felt kiddy to me."


is that bad?



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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 31st May 2013 02:53
Well it's limited as it doesn't appeal to me. If the game was half way to Sim City then it could cover more of the game market.

BlackFox
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Posted: 31st May 2013 02:59
We run our own server and really enjoy the game. My wife, myself, our 15 year old daughter, and 4 year old son have fun making different things (right now the girls are constructing a huge city). The game is what it is- we can focus on every little thing and pick it apart, or we can just play to have a bit of fun and relax which is what we do exactly. It has become a family tradition on the weekends to spend some time in our world constructing or exploring.


There's no problem that can't be solved without applying a little scripting.
Libervurto
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Posted: 31st May 2013 03:30
Quote: "We run our own server and really enjoy the game. My wife, myself, our 15 year old daughter, and 4 year old son have fun making different things (right now the girls are constructing a huge city). The game is what it is- we can focus on every little thing and pick it apart, or we can just play to have a bit of fun and relax which is what we do exactly. It has become a family tradition on the weekends to spend some time in our world constructing or exploring."

That's fantastic, and Minecraft has that kind of wide appeal because of its modular mechanics. The trouble is that Mojang have failed to fuse those mechanics together into a meaningful game. With all the brilliant mods that improve the game dramatically, in one direction or another, I'm surprised we still haven't seen a successful iteration of Minecraft from someone else.

There are several different ways to play Minecraft, but I think there could be so much more variety if the game were re-designed from the ground up to be as flexible and modular as possible. There aren't enough fundamental "physics" or laws of the Minecraft world to play around with for me.

Basically it needs to become more like LittleBigPlanet and also take advantage of the cellular nature of the world.

The difficulty in learning is not acquiring new knowledge but relinquishing the old.
Dark Frager
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Posted: 31st May 2013 10:36
Quote: "You seem to be totally ignoring my point. There is nothing unique about any biome apart from aesthetics. Even the different trees can be harvested from their natural habitat and grown elsewhere with no problems. All you do in survival is stockpile resources in your safe house, once you have what you need you never need again. I want a world where you can't have everything in one place, to experience everything you must travel around and finding one cocoa pod and redwood sapling doesn't mean you never have to visit a jungle again.
"


Oh right, I get you now

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Quik
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Posted: 31st May 2013 10:38
Quote: "Well it's limited as it doesn't appeal to me. If the game was half way to Sim City then it could cover more of the game market."



well - it's got a LOT of mods to make it a lot less limited

but, do you mind elaborating what exactly you mean with "limited"?



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greenlig
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Posted: 31st May 2013 12:01
Quote: "The trouble is that Mojang have failed to fuse those mechanics together into a meaningful game."


Based on what metric? I'd suggest that the millions of players are testament to Minecraft being a fantastic and meaningful game. The key thing it does is allow the player to have complete agency. It doesn't force any decisions beside survival, and that's something easily bought into. Kids get it, adults get it. You can go into this world and make what you will of it. You decide what your goal is, and reach for it. The game has tapped into a collective energy that is as big a cross-generation event as the Wii. Make no mistake, this is a very, very good game. Whether the design was all intentional, or there was an element of luck in there, matters little. The end product is super tight, runs remarkably well on a very undervalued platform, and defined a business model(alpha funding).

Your arguments about the design are fair enough, but considering the broad appeal that it currently has, I'd say they made a lot of good decisions. The interactions with the world are very, very simple, yet the results can be very complex. It's little wonder kids can pick it up so quickly. What you see as shortcoming, I see as design choices that open the game up to a wider audience.

You say that the initial hit-a-tree-for-wood challenge is a chance for more gameplay. I disagree. It's a learning phase. You learn that the interaction with world elements is hitting things, collecting their blocks, and combining them. Without that, where do new players start? Adding in more complexity at that stage would make what is already a steep learning curve much, much steeper. Besides, that complexity comes about later in the game anyway. Making some of the more advanced stuff is no mean feat!

As for the monsters, I agree in a way with you, but also think it's a matter of balance. The game isn't a combat game, it's a mining and crafting game. The focus is not about combat, or the fear of death from creeps. After you get some good armour and weapons, they pose little threat, but that doesn't mean the game loses it's challenge in combat. In the Nether Realm, or even just spelunking, there are real threats posed from creatures. The amount of times I have panicked off a ledge into lava because of a creep is laughable.

I do agree though, more work on the environmental changes would be sweet. Having biomes change, and have a real gameplay effect, would be awesome. It probably wouldn't be that hard to add as a mod, either, if it hasn't been already. I played a mod that my brother had that addressed some of that, and it was cool.

Quote: "There is no benefit to exploration at all, unless it's into a deep cave that you might find some diamonds in."
I don't agree, purely because this is a subjective opinion. I find a lot of pleasure in exploring. I jump in my boat and just set off in search of high coastal bluffs where I can build my supercrib. I love the idea of being so far away from all my friends that we could be different countries. I love the exploration, and that's my opinion. This doesn't mean it's good or bad design, it means you respond to it differently to me.

In terms of creativity, I disagree completely based on the oodles of cool stuff that people have made. Heck, the modding community is a direct result of this allowance in Minecraft for creativity. Kids get in there and make little worlds, teachers hold classes, people build amazing forts and castles, mazes, meta-games, etc. It's an amazingly creative place.

I think the conclusions you draw are too subjective. Your preference in games doesn't objectively define the quality of the design or implementation. You say it's flawed to the core, but you haven't even begun to show how. If anything, you have explained how the core is brilliant, and supports design choices that you don't agree with, or would prefer a different take on.

The bottom line with Minecraft is that it allows the player unparalleled agency, and taps into very base human desires. They can do what they want, and are limited, in most ways, by their imagination alone. They are told only to survive, and to make what they will of the world. They are given their hands and a blank canvas, waiting to be explored. The fact that over 10 million people have purchased the PC version says that they got things right. Had the balance been skewed to combat, it would have alienated sections of it's audience. Had it had more complex mechanics and interactions, it would have again alienated people. They got a lot right. Much, much more than they got wrong.

Personally, I think they found a way to return everyone to that state of imagination that gaming lost with the pursuit of photorealism. The player experiences the world far beyond just visuals, forcing their imagination to engage. When I see an appealing painting, it usually handles the light delicately, suggesting form without describing it fully. It allows me to fill in the blanks, and create a world in my mind that goes beyond what I can see. It makes things move. Minecraft is a similar beast.

To answer your question - "Why Has No One Made A Better Minecraft?" - There could be any number of answers. The simplest is probably that Minecraft exists, and going beyond that would be very, very hard. Many have tried, no-one has gone past it.

It's awesome that you've put all this effort into a critical analysis of Minecraft's design, and I think you raise some really good points. However, I'd argue that your hard-hitting has more to do with taste than it does with design.

Greenlig

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Van B
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Posted: 31st May 2013 13:33
Speaking of pooping systems, DayZ is apparantly getting poop support - there's already toilet tissue, hell there's razors as well. It takes me to shave regularly in real life, never mind a damn game. I am looking forward to making dirty protests though. Really, I'm not sure what it adds to the game other than some cheap laughs.

I got a fever, and the only prescription, is more memes.
Dark Frager
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Posted: 31st May 2013 13:40
Quote: "I'm not sure what it adds to the game other than some cheap laughs."


Maybe if you hold it in for too long you poop yourself and you run slower?

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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 31st May 2013 13:47
Excellent!!!!
Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 31st May 2013 13:59
Quote: "well - it's got a LOT of mods to make it a lot less limited

but, do you mind elaborating what exactly you mean with "limited"?"


It's blocky, it's limited to blocks.

Quik
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Posted: 31st May 2013 15:59
Quote: "It's blocky, it's limited to blocks."


that.. was silly.. but yes- it's limited to "only blocks"

... with the exception of smaller blocks, and stair blocks...

but yes -blocks... doesnt hinder my creativity the slightest though



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Libervurto
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Posted: 1st Jun 2013 00:08
@Greenlig
Minecraft has had huge success and gained a broad following, that doesn't mean it's a well designed game. People are in love with the concept of Minecraft. The flexibility of the game means that it can get away with poor design, because people can work around its faults and things they don't like about it.

I visit the Minecraft Middle Earth server often, so I know what amazing things can be built, but that doesn't change the fact that the selection of blocks and decorations is extremely limited. Think back to when slabs and stairs were first able to be placed upside down and what a huge difference that made to architecture; imagine if we had half a dozen more block shapes to use.

Minecraft has spawned a genre, so it is bound to be rough around the edges. We've talked a lot about how mods improve the game, but each mod has to be independently maintained and updated to function with the latest version of the game. While we can appreciate Mojang for supporting modders (minecraft is probably the easiest game to mod), and the modding community is certainly a major asset, we can't claim that any one particular mod solves an issue or improves the core game because the lifespan of every mod is uncertain.

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CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 1st Jun 2013 12:46
Nicky Minaj is also loved by millions, need I say more?

Tekkit is a fantastic mod package for this game, as it adds so much in an easy to use and tested format. All the mods work together as required, and you can build some fantastic contraptions. It also alters resource spawning, so you have to seek out certain biomes for things like rubber trees.

Still, it does have the problem of being able to harvest, then plant the tree back home. I often get bored of Minecraft single player military- shortly after completing the token Reinforced Stone citadel with apocalypse-grade underground fuel and water supply.

The Industrial Craft portion demands a bit of clever work though. Especially if you opt to use finite resources to power stuff.
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Posted: 1st Jun 2013 13:18
Quote: "Nicky Minaj is also loved by millions, need I say more?"


I do quite like some of her songs ^^



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greenlig
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Posted: 1st Jun 2013 15:29
Quote: "Minecraft has had huge success and gained a broad following, that doesn't mean it's a well designed game. People are in love with the concept of Minecraft. The flexibility of the game means that it can get away with poor design, because people can work around its faults and things they don't like about it."


@Obese87
I see what you are saying, but you aren't backing any of this up with metrics. If you could show me that there are a large percentage of people dropping out after the first few nights of fending off creeps, then your point about it being boring after that moment would hold more water. If you had the metrics that show players are dropping out after building x amount of buildings, then you'd have more weight behind the lack of building elements argument. Until then, it seems like your impressions, rather than statistically bad design. That's not a bad thing, and I am not saying you have no right to those opinions. Your experience of the game is just as valuable as anyone else's. However, without metrics, you just can't convince me that this game is poorly designed, or has core flaws. Based on the only available metric, sheer user numbers across large age ranges, you have to assume they did much more right than they did wrong.

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Posted: 1st Jun 2013 20:08 Edited at: 1st Jun 2013 20:10
Actually I would argue the game is poorly designed simply because of the lack of mod support for so long.
Without mods, you can essentially "win" the game pretty easily and monsters/starvation stops becoming a threat almost instantly. Because of that, all the game becomes is digging blocks, so you might as well just play creative mode!

Its only with mods that the game has any sort of lasting appeal, and I'd argue if it weren't for the active community of modders who have hacked the game, people wouldn't still be playing it in such large numbers.

I'd argue that Minecraft success is actually a framework for others to build upon, rather than a video game itself (which is why I would say it was a poorly designed video game, but an excellent stepping stone).

I do however believe that "A better minecraft" doesn't mean better visuals/terrain voxels rather than blocks.

Jimpo
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Posted: 1st Jun 2013 20:29
My suggestion: license the Voxel Farm engine and build your own "better minecraft"



In the future, we will see sandbox games with incredible graphics and building freedom. It will be all about whether game designers can make game play to match.

I'm personally pumped for the next generation minecraft

Quik
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2013 01:12
my problem with most voxel games, or mc "clones" in general, is... survival mode - survival mode is the sole reason i play minecraft - if i dont have to gain minerals and resources... and fight off monsters - then I will not enjoy it...

and sadly - i have not seen any game that has actually implemented this :/



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Libervurto
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2013 01:18 Edited at: 2nd Jun 2013 01:19
Quote: "I see what you are saying, but you aren't backing any of this up with metrics. If you could show me that there are a large percentage of people dropping out after the first few nights of fending off creeps, then your point about it being boring after that moment would hold more water. If you had the metrics that show players are dropping out after building x amount of buildings, then you'd have more weight behind the lack of building elements argument. Until then, it seems like your impressions, rather than statistically bad design. That's not a bad thing, and I am not saying you have no right to those opinions. Your experience of the game is just as valuable as anyone else's. However, without metrics, you just can't convince me that this game is poorly designed, or has core flaws. Based on the only available metric, sheer user numbers across large age ranges, you have to assume they did much more right than they did wrong."

This makes no sense to me whatsoever. We've already established that a view is not made valid by the number of people who share it. I don't see the value in metrics, even if I had those numbers for you we wouldn't know why these people left the game. My opinion isn't concrete evidence but adding thousands of other people's opinions to it doesn't change that. My opinion is more valuable because I've stated the reasons for holding it. There are points to be considered, discussed and refuted here, that is far more useful than trying to blind guess why the metrics are the way they are.

The difficulty in learning is not acquiring new knowledge but relinquishing the old.
greenlig
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2013 11:50
@Obese87 - You need to statistically prove those things though. Your whole argument hinges on your experience of the game, and unless you can prove your experience is the prevalent experience, you can't say it's flawed at it's core. It's not what you would do, or hasn't taken things as far as you would have, but that's not a core failing. If you are saying the game is not as complex as it could be, or if it doesn't support a type of gameplay as much as it could, then I agree completely. BUT, if you are saying that it's flawed because it doesn't meet those expectations, then that is simply an opinion based on taste. To say something is objectively, statistically wrong or flawed, you NEED to back it up with metrics.

I don't necessarily take exception to all the points you raise, but I do not agree that it's flawed at it's core based on your argument.

Quote: "I don't see the value in metrics, even if I had those numbers for you we wouldn't know why these people left the game."


You put metrics in a game to test theories. If the theory is that people are bored after the first night of play, you WILL see people leaving the game after that time period. How quickly players stop playing after that first night can tell you a LOT of things. You might not know why people are leaving the game, but you know when and where they are. From here, you suggest a change that would affect that metric, like "Let's add a big attack by creeps every 5 nights, see if that retains players' interest." Implement that, then observe the data again. Metrics are insanely useful in game design, especially in a game like Minecraft where development is incremental. They can toy with those formulas till the cows come home.

Metrics don't tell the whole story, but they do set the scene.

Your points on the strengths/weaknesses of Minecraft are fine, and some of them have merit. However, that does not mean that it's a game that is flawed at the core. 21 million purchases says that, at it's core, it's a very well realised game.

@BigAdd - Interesting point with the mod support. I'd be curious to see how many more people bought the game after that was added, and how it affected retention.

One other thing that hasn't really been discussed though is the Xbox and tablet versions of the game. The XBLA and Mobile versions have sold over 11 million copies, and these are people without the ability to mod the game.

Greenlig

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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2013 16:52
It's like Batman movies. Nobody saw any flaw in the Jack Nicholson character, and movies.. until you see the new movies. You don't really need to prove that you can improve Minecraft. You can tell that it is retro style, so just from that it looks old style.

CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2013 17:14
Yeah, for example I loved Heath Ledger's Joker until I started watching Mark Hamill's voice work, which seems to fit the character so much better IMO.
Quik
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2013 17:37
Quote: "Yeah, for example I loved Heath Ledger's Joker until I started watching Mark Hamill's voice work, which seems to fit the character so much better IMO"


I love both - A LOT



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Libervurto
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2013 00:34 Edited at: 4th Jun 2013 18:03
I think I should probably have called this thread "Why aren't there more games like Minecraft?" Picking holes in Minecraft wasn't my reason for starting this thread, Minecraft was just the basis for the discussion since it's the only game of this type I'm familiar with; it's the best test board to bounce ideas off that I have. I talk about the problems with Minecraft and the possibilities it opens up because I'm surprised there aren't already more games like it, and these weaknesses and untapped potential seem like good motivators to make more games of this type.

I was out for a walk and realised something important about natural environments. You don't need thousands of species of plant to create variety, you just need some adjustable parameters. Over quite a large open area there were only around five or six different species of plant, but in one part the long grass might be more dominant and grow higher, another part might have bigger bushes and less grass, another part might have no bushes at all.

Minecraft's trees exhibit this kind of variation, but it would be nice to see some more plants with various forms. Some bushes and different length grass would be nice.

I found a place to sit and was just messing around with some flints and decided to try and make some kind of flint blade. I looked around for a large enough stone to use as a striking block and then found a decent sized flint that was comfortable enough to use as a hammer. Then I just grabbed a few smaller flints, put them on the striking stone and started hammering away at them as shards of different sizes broke off, some of which were pretty sharp! It was a lot of fun, more than I'd anticipated.

Then I started to think "Why is this so fun?" Well, for starters, I'd only been mucking around with flints for a few minutes and, despite having no idea what I was doing, had produced a few "blades"; although they were too small to be of any practical use. But it wasn't just the ease at which the stone broke or the act of hitting the stones that was fun, the whole process was fun, even searching for flints to use was fun. I realised that, once again, variation was the key here. Every stone I was using was made of the same stuff, but some were big and strong enough to take impact without breaking, some were weaker and would break easily into thin shards, some had smooth edges that were comfortable to hold. Even looking for flints was fun because I didn't know what I'd find or what stones would fit which purpose.

I realised something profound that had emerged from that variation that I don't think I've ever experienced in a game: I didn't know how good my stones were. I didn't know if the "hammer" I'd found, which felt pretty nice to use, was the best darn stone hammer for miles around or whether there was a better one lying three feet away from where I was sitting. I used what was available to me and made the best of it. The combination of having resources easy at hand but also being unaware of their overall quality compared to what else I might find, gave me this combined feeling of uncertainty and optimism (because I knew there were more stones to find out there that could be even better) that was engaging.

What if the world was more "gamey" and instead there were only a dozen stones that could be used as hammers in the whole area, all equally suited to the task (or perhaps a few tiers of quality), but because of their scarcity I had to search for twenty minutes or more to find one? I doubt it would have been as much fun, I doubt I would have even bothered.

If you're sharp-witted you might be thinking "Hey! I thought you were complaining about wooden tools? They're just as easy to come by as your flints!" They're not quite as easy to craft as picking up a stone, but the main problem is they don't have the same variety. If you craft a wooden pick it will be as good as any other wooden pick. There's no thought process like "This wood looks good for crafting, but this one looks a bit weak." This is why I suggested that starting with flint tools would be more interesting, I just didn't fully understand what gave me that impression until today. Having resources of scalar quality, not just a few distinct tiers, allows for the materials to be more common: providing many entry points into the crafting system without flooding the world with too many high-quality resources.

One aspect of Minecraft that does have an element of uncertainty is Enchanting. I think it was a brilliant bit of design by Notch (I think it was still him at that point) to give some randomness to enchantments because it has the potential to create unique items that are very rare. Anvils took away much of that uncertainty: another example of Minecraft's conflicting mechanics.

The difficulty in learning is not acquiring new knowledge but relinquishing the old.

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