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Newcomers DBPro Corner / What software bundle should I buy? And what would best suit my ideas?

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Guilty by right
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Posted: 24th Dec 2003 04:48
Hello Everyone! I am a newbie to the world of game design, and am just wondering if anyone can help me make the right choice instead of me making a wrong one. I have for several years now been wanting to create a computer game. It's a blend of a few elements such as Multiplayer/RPG/Adventure/& Fantasy Strategy types to form this game. I am very ignorant to what it takes to make computer games, but I do know from reading around and through my own intuition that it takes determination, patience, lotz or trial and error, and study. I am willing to do this to see my dream come true.
I will enlighten you to what my game will have once itz done (or what I would love to see it have)

-destructable terrain and objects(i.e. trees, ground to a certain degree, rocks, some permanant in areas, some for a period of time.)
-the ability to evolve over a period of time (i.e. actually grow up)
-night and day
-the ability to build your own living quarters out of materials one step at a time or find them (i.e. go out and cut down a tree and use the log for your house. Or go find a cave that can be enlarged to a preset degree threw digging it out and outfitting it so that itz suitable for living quarters.)
-to have enemy characters be able to remotely work together, to have some intillegence in the AI.
-The ability to make your tools, weapons, armor, spells.
-to grow a garden, plant thingz.
-to hunt.
-the ability to come to a free world were there are a handful of NPC run villages and make your own with the help of your friends or in my case my brothers and friends.
-to switch between first person and third person when the skill or activity calls for it.
-wounds that show, and body part loss on major infliction of damage on enemy. (i.e. is there a way to make holes in an enemy. Let's say if you shoot them with a weapon? can you blow a chunk out of them or leave battle damage as well as the all to normal red splotch effect and fall over?)

I know you all must think I am simply crazy. Well I am determined to make this happen. I just need to know what tools do I need, and the time it takes to make this is of no consequence to me. I just want it to look and play good when itz done. I am a newbie to this field, and thatz what attracted me to the darkbasic Proffessional software. It seems from what I've read to be user friendly, but will it allow me to attain what I am looking for or at the very least a part of what i am looking for? Any help would be VERY MUCH appreciated. Thank you all who have taken the time to read this long post.

"It will be done..."
MasterInsan0
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Posted: 24th Dec 2003 06:24 Edited at: 24th Dec 2003 06:25
Well..hmm. That is quite a large undertaking, especially for a first project. I really don't think you should start with something so large scale (if something of that degree can even be done in DB/Pro and still have any speed to it). However, if you want my highly opinionated approach towards getting good enough to undertake such a project, here it is:

Step 1: Get the tools required to program. Since you're here, I'll assume that would be DBPro.

Step 2: Start making tiny little programs that test out the various facets of the language, read the board a lot, and do some tutorials. This will help your understanding of both DBPro and Programming altogether.

Step 3: Once you have a lot of tiny little programs, make a larger scale game. Perhaps a full-fledged remake of an arcade game or something to that degree. You'll probably spend a lot of time here in the Newcomer's Forum in this phase (I know I did). (Also, make sure not to pester the kind people that help us who cannot wield the power of DBPro correctly yet.) Start out with 3D, not 2D. 2D's a bitch, as I'm learning myself (compared to 3D anyway).

Step 4: Improve this game. A lot. Go back through, brainstorm ideas to improve this game.

Step 5: Repeat steps 3 and 4 a lot, trying out different games, and doing more advanced games each time. Eventually, start making games look flashy and have all kinds of neat little features (those can be the hardest to code).

Step 6: Once you've got a good library of pretty good, complete games (perhaps not all complete, but at least something significant done in each of them), make sure you know these things AT LEAST (nowhere near a complete list, but it's a start)

A. How to make intuitive, responsive controls.
B. How to make the game look professional, complete with menus and help functions, etc.
C. How to load external data (hopefully when the data is encrypted).
D. How to output/save data (hopefully in an encrypted format).
E. How to work Multiplayer.
F. How to gain access to or make the media for your game.
...and much more that I don't have time to think about right now.


Once you understand a great deal of game-making, and you have at least a couple of games at which people will go, "Wow, that's pretty good," then you're set, I guess, to begin work on your dream game. Just remember, the high and mighty game programmers are paid to do it for a reason: they're good.

Another thing: Although DB/Pro can indeed do most of what someone could do with C++ and DirectX, I will say that it's not too well suited for many things. When your dream game is one of that caliber, I might suggest to you to learn DBPro thoroughly as explained above, make some cool stuff, and then move on to C/C++. There are still a number of bugs in DBPro, although by the time you get to the point where you're ready to begin on the dream game there may not be. But, if you go this route, be prepared to rip your hair out, bite your fingernails off, and scream your voice to the point where it bleeds. C++ is in NO way easy. I've came back to DBPro about 5 times from trying to move to C++ simply from the sheer difficulty.

So, to answer your question much more simply than the essay above, you'll need DBPro and something to make your game media with.

Good luck and happy coding.

My friends' and my website for programming:
http://unseenstudios.dbpcommunity.com
Guilty by right
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Posted: 24th Dec 2003 07:01
Thankyou very much MasterInsan0, for your honest advice. I will heed your wisdom. It seems like I have a lot of work cut out for me in this venture, but I know that I will be able to, in time, make this happen. Oh, and btw, what is the best Newbie reading material that I can purchase (in the form of step-by-step for dumbass's like me?). Thankz again for your advice and your post.

"It will be done..."
zircher
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Location: Oklahoma
Posted: 24th Dec 2003 07:13
The online help files that come with the editor in conjuctions with the examples and tutorials will be your ever patient ally as you learn the commands that make up the DBP language.

This forum is an excellent resource when you get stuck. There is at least one user contributed 'book' under development. For myself, I just dug into the manual and help files.
--
TAZ
waffle
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Location: Western USA
Posted: 25th Dec 2003 11:55
go through the monster hunt tutorial (available on the website).
Its intended for DBC but makes for good reading. A DBPro version
is available

http://home.comcast.net/~norman.perry/game.html

just click on DUEL pro

This version is multiplayer, but is based upon the monster hunt thingy. I think I included source code there.

The hardest thing to come up with is the media...
I recommend milkshape3D for low cost animations ($20 or so)
Also recommend DBC just for the models,textures (and tutorials)
MTV Music Maker for making music (only $10 in stores)
6000 Sound Effects (only $10 in stores)
2000 Textures (only $10 in stores)
Magic World (free) checkout the DBC showcase
VanSeem (free) checkout the DBC showcase

Armed in this manner, you should be pretty well set.
Many like to slam DBC, but forget all the extras on the cd
I like DBC because there is alot of source code floating around.
If I like the code, I fix it up and drop it into DBPro.
Saves alot of time. Also read the codebase.

internet gaming group
Guilty by right
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Posted: 26th Dec 2003 04:34
Waffle, dude, thank you sooo much! thatz some advice I can definitly use! I think I shall rush out and get those thingz you mentioned! I am not the best artist out there.. (thatz forsure)! lol, well We'll see how I do.

"It will be done..."
Guilty by right
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Posted: 26th Dec 2003 04:45
Waffle, btw I just tried that link.. and it leadz me to a website that is taking FOREVER and a day to load on my slow ass dial up IC. and what i do see doesn't seem to be a tutorial at all... itz a black page with blue titled games and what not? Just wondering if you gave me the wrong link, if I am just being stupid or my computer is being gay, tell me. thankz

"It will be done..."
BearCDPOLD
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Posted: 26th Dec 2003 07:51
Hey Guilty_by_Right,
I am almost in the same position you are in, we're lookin' to make a killer FPS and it has thus far taken two years migrating fro Qbasic, to BlitzBasic2d, to BlitzBasic3d, and finally to DarkBASIC classic, and will probably get moved to DBpro. We made small functions in each of the languages and got a feel for how to do the stuff we wanted to do, such as gravity, collisions, etc.
For waffle's URL try downloading the games, I think they are in .dba format so you can look at them, and play around with them.
For the bundles you'll need.......

If you want to make higher-quality 3d models get gameSpace, but if you have no artistic skill whatsoever then don't bother spending the $300.

You can go to discreet.com (they make big fancy $3000 programs), and download gmax for free, export it do a quake 3 format, then convert it using 3d Exploration for cheap 3d models. The only problem is is that you'll need to do animations in another program like trueSpace3.2, which is now free.

For royalty-free character models with animations DarkMatter from this page has good stuff.

You will also need a 2d graphics editor (for textures & other things), the Texture Maker here is good, or you can get a nicer one like Paint Shop Pro 8, or even just use regular old MS Paint.

For outdoor level building I HIGHLY recommend Magic World from all-seeing-i.com It sports matrix editing (default terrain files for DB) in which you can place objects, and it even comes with a function to load your world into DB.

For indoor levels, you might want to check out the 3d map editor from nuclearglory.com, or Cartography Shop(excellent program) from here.

Nuclearglory.com also has some beautiful .DLL files for collision and gravity calculations (which are a serious pain to code yourself), and a program that converts a .3ds object to a matrix.

I hope this isn't too much random, unorganized information at once. I'll be sure to keep watching this post.

juvy

Juvenile Industries
Current Project: The First Room (FPS)
Soon to come:An rts, and a snowball fight game
Guilty by right
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Posted: 27th Dec 2003 08:56
hey juvy, thankz dude, and thatz a big help! You put it in plain english for me which ones would suite me best! Thatz kool.

Ummm... yet another barrage of questions...
1. what are your guyz opinion of blender 2.25?
2. Is it a good program to use to make models for the game I want to design?
3. Being free does it limit me on anything major?
4. What is the best basic modeller out there that has a good tutorial and resource base behind it for newbs like me?

"It will be done..."
BearCDPOLD
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Posted: 27th Dec 2003 20:59
I just put Blender on my computer for a few minutes to try it out. I didn't particularly like the interface, and I couldn't figure out how to create a primitive object(box, sphere, cylinder, etc.). It definitely has plenty of features, while browsing through the little submenus I saw good things like splines, beveling, etc. These are mesh deformation procedures that are used to make a bunch of boxes and spheres into a high-quality game model. And previously to get rendering and exporting features you had to pay blender.org a certain amount of money, but they just give it away free now with the registration key so it it not limited because it is free.

If you are looking for the simplest powerful modeller then Caligari's line of modellers is probably the best (trueSpace and now gameSpace), but these cost between $150-$500.

The program I mentioned earlier, gmax, is powerful (it's based off discreet's $3000 program 3d Studio Max), but has been scaled down from its mother product and designed for people who want to make mods to games like half-life and quake. It can look intimidating at first, but it has some tutorials, and a forum that helps a whole boatload. The only problem with gmax is it exports only to game formats like Quake3(.md3). So you will need to download an .md3 exporter, and then a little program called 3d exploration which converts .md3 (and various other formats) to .3ds, and .x which are the only 3d formats used in DarkBASIC. Unfortunately yet another problem arises from this, animation data may get lost when exporting to a .md3 file, so you need another free modeller that can export directly to .x in which you can do your animations.

I highly recommend trueSpace3.2. Caligari has put this one out for free now that it's getting kind of old, but it still uses a basic keyframe editor (like gmax and Macromedia FlashMX) for animations, and if you download that you can get a discount on upgrading to newer versions of trueSpace.

glad to be of help.
juvy

Juvenile Industries
Current Project: The First Room (FPS)
Soon to come:An rts, and a snowball fight game
Guilty by right
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Posted: 29th Dec 2003 21:36
Thank you very much Juvy, I appreciate the help you are giving me. Itz better to ask questions then to blindly fall in a pit you could've avoided (I've done that a lot)... I'm sure I will have a lot more questions, but for now I'm out. Later.

"It will be done..."
waffle
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Posted: 30th Dec 2003 19:15 Edited at: 30th Dec 2003 19:17
sorry about my website being "broadband" orintated

here is a direct link to the monsterhunt tutorial
http://home.comcast.net/~norman.perry/TutWaffle.zip

and a directlink to the dbpro version
http://home.comcast.net/~norman.perry/games/2.zip

And for some ball blasting fun
http://home.comcast.net/~norman.perry/games/3.zip

internet gaming group
current project http://home.comcast.net/~norman.perry/Archon.html
Major Payn
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Posted: 31st Dec 2003 00:37
that sounds like a really cool game. But DB is not very easy I am a begginer and am finding it hard to make a simple 3d tank game with no depth at all. But hey Im getting better at it.

Alienware area 51/radeon 9800 pro 256mb/sound blaster audigy 2/5.1 surround sound speakers.
entwood2
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Posted: 31st Dec 2003 21:37
Hello. I am interested in creating a 2D 'wargame'. This would entail a map with a hexagon layer 'over it', a turn sequence, where each turn many sprite units move from hex to hex under user given orders. There would need to be scrolling, numerical array values for unit characteristics, some sound effects and music, and a lot more.

In general, is DB appropriate for such as game? Is DB suited for it?

I thought 2D would be easier than 3D but
MasterInsan0 writes 'Start out with 3D, not 2D. 2D's a bitch, as I'm learning myself (compared to 3D anyway).

Thanks in advance.

Also I do have (corporate) programming experience (COBOL)and have played these style board and computer games, so have that as an
advantage.

Your responses will really help me decide if I should buy a DB package (and if so, which one) or I need to look somewhere else.
I am hoping DB or other easier programming language can be used rather than learing C, C++.

I don't aim to compete with a real commercial product at this point but I do plan on creating a professional-level product.
BearCDPOLD
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Posted: 1st Jan 2004 12:17
3d is a lot easier to actually write, but until you learn the general theory behind it it gets pretty scary. With 3d you start thinking about "how do I make it look like he's looking at it from the side, and how does it do that?"
2d is just filling in pixels on the screen with different colors.
If you like to think about the theory going on behind graphics, do 2d, but if you just want to operate like "I know that this command does this and I don't care how" then 3d would be more appropriate.

As far as making your game (if I'm imagining it right, it should have gameplay similar to Age of Wonders?), practically anything is possible if you put the work into it. DarkBASIC has good 2d stuff, and I think DBPro is more suited towards 3d with its newer features, but any of the DarkBASIC products can make a professional-quality 2d wargame with a determined coder behind it. Since you mentioned it will be turn-based, that will make it even easier by eliminating the need to calculate real-time actions.

Juvenile Industries
Current Project: The First Room (FPS)
Soon to come:An rts, and a snowball fight game
zircher
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Posted: 1st Jan 2004 19:24
Good to see some more wargamers interested in making games.

Either DB classic or DB Pro is fully capable of making war games in either 2D or 3D. There are things you have to learn about 2D or 3D programming so neither one should be a barrier unto itself. You need to ask yourself what kind of art resources are available to you. As a wargamer/programmer, 2D is probably easier due to the nature of the game: flat counters, maps, hex overlays, etc.

My personal preference is to use DBP since it is still being actively developed and in the future you may want to make a wargame that uses miniature. My VirMin project is working in that a vein, a 3D chat room for gamers.
--
TAZ

VirMin Gallery http://www.geocities.com/tzircher/tcom_gallery.htm
entwood2
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2004 06:08
Thanks for the responses. A few more questions. Based on the following recent posts (in some different threads),

'the debugger: crap on a shingle, read/search bug forum for debugger issues'

'My personal preference is to use DBP since it is still being actively developed'

and a few posts I have seen about 'bugs' and versions of DB...well
What state is the DB product in? Are there any sort of 'crippling' or 'major' problems with DB itself? As for being
actively developed, a current .EXE file would still be compatible
with future patches?

Also, as far a graphics package to make bit maps and sprites, I get the impression that Jasc's Paint Shop Pro 8 is more than adequete?
I already have a 60 day trial version (on my new PC) so if so, that
would be my first step; to get familiar with it.

It is a new year's resolution to create my own game. I have always wanted to and have spent countless hours playing games, and I will now start using my free time more constructively. I just got back from my local COMPUSA store, DB was not on the shelf, and they listed it as discontinued. They seemed to have it generally available according to the COMPUSA.COM. I was a little disappointed about this. I assume it is just a COMPUSA thing and nothing to do with the merits of DB itself.
zircher
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2004 07:29
DBP is solid enough that we had dozens of entries in the Alienware contest as well as a few commerical titles and utilities out there.

Bugs are not generally show stoppers but glitches that might need working around. For example, I'm very happy with patch 5.1, but for my needs patch 5.2 still needs some work. [I use lots of models with quad polygons.]
--
TAZ
BearCDPOLD
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Location: AZ,USA
Posted: 5th Jan 2004 04:02
Paint Shop Pro is definitely more than adequate for any 2d work whether it be sprites or textures (got it for Christmas, , it is a beautiful thing). I haven't tried DBPro, but I know that DarkBASIC is pretty solid, the only problem is the debugger messes up which line the error is actually on if it encounters one. The way to fix this is Step-Through debug it in DarkEdit1.56. This could take awhile, but when I tried it, I realized how the debugger got confused about its lines.
I am certain that DBPro's debugger probably has more features than DarkEdit's so Pro would probably deliver the same, or slightly better.

Juvenile Industries
Current Project: The First Room (FPS)
Soon to come:An rts, and a snowball fight game

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