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AppGameKit Studio Chat / [LOCKED] [SOLVED] Is AGK Studio dead?

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Alex_Peres
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Posted: 8th Oct 2020 19:08
Is AppGameKit Studio dead?

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Bored of the Rings
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Posted: 8th Oct 2020 19:17
Well according to the newsletter I just received an update is coming in November.
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Zigi
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Posted: 8th Oct 2020 21:36 Edited at: 8th Oct 2020 21:38
I don't personally expect new features to come but maintenance and bug fix releases if that is what you have in mind.
When Studio was released TGC did mention they are considering to release a new version with new features only every 12 months or so and provide only maintenance releases in between. They also mentioned in the recent news letter they plan to clear the issue tracker on GitHub for the November update. This release was all about the new Vulkan renderer and the new IDE. So I do expect the announcement of a new version to bring new features in December or January next year or maybe right after they release the update in November. But it is only speculation, don't take my word for it.
Alex_Peres
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Posted: 8th Oct 2020 22:01
Thanks guys!
Polaraul
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Posted: 9th Oct 2020 16:30
I was just about to post the same question.

AGK Classic has not had any update since April, and I see no advantage to buying the same product again in the form of Studio (which seems to come with its own set of issues). The forums here are the quietest I have seen them, and there just seems no, and I guess for want of a better word, 'buzz' about this product. Other toolsets I use are constantly updating and keeping the user base informed of planned features and enhancements, I don't think there is even a roadmap for AGK2.
Loktofeit
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Posted: 9th Oct 2020 17:31

"and there just seems no, and I guess for want of a better word, 'buzz' about this product."

Which is kind of crazy, because AppGameKit nails that sweet middle ground between game engine and game creator. It is a full-fledged dev environment with an extremely low barrier to entry and a palatable learning curve.

I wish the team would communicate more. AppGameKit does seem kind of dead. For example, a month to even acknowledge a time-sensitive issue your users are having is disappointing. Add to that the lack of updates.

You mentioned a road map. I'd love to see a roadmap for AppGameKit Classic.
Vectrex71CH
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Posted: 9th Oct 2020 17:50
I think it's dead and next year they will show us an App Game Kit Studio MAX or something like this as always. Dark Basic , App Game Kit , App Game Kit 2 , App Game Kit Studio....... Or First Person Shooter Construction Kit, Game Guru, Game Guru Max... There is a pattern! It's sad they do not a better product maintenance. ...... App Game Kit could be even better than it already is ! Imagine. Game Guru Max could be the 3D Editor for App Game Kit Studio but that is not possible, because there are 2 different engines under the hood :-( This is NOT a real critism.... it's just my personal 2 Cents !!! I still Love TGC and i still use App Game Kit Studio, but i see, there is so much more potential in this product !
psychoanima
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Posted: 9th Oct 2020 20:33
In terms of new features/updates it's dead for sure. All that sweet introduction of Vulkan rendering, glorious 3D looking, it was all nice on paper (and in promo video) but practically no one is using it cuz 3D in AppGameKit is pain in the a** without scene editor. Not to mention shaders, you need special degree of knowledge in that field. I mean, I get it, AppGameKit is staying barebone in 3D cuz they don't wont to cannibalize their own products, but despite GameGuru, AppGameKit needs to move step forward and become more modern and UI friendly when it comes to 3D capabilities.
blink0k
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Posted: 9th Oct 2020 21:01
I think they're just busy with gameguru max. Once it's out the door and settled they will concentrate more on AGK
Amon
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Posted: 9th Oct 2020 21:10
If you want to target your 3d games at the casual game market then AGKS is all you need.

You want to make AAA 3D games in AGKS? Get ready to work hard like you have never worked hard before. Or, go for one of the various other super 3d engines where AAA is more reachable.

Casual 3D Games, mini games, 3D platform games, 3D puzzle games etc are all much more suited to be coded in AGKS.
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Zigi
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Posted: 10th Oct 2020 11:31 Edited at: 10th Oct 2020 11:42
Quote: "I think they're just busy with gameguru max. Once it's out the door and settled they will concentrate more on AGK"

I`m sure that was the plan to release GG Max this October and focus on AppGameKit from November but they pushed the release of GG Max to December. It would be nice though if TGC would step forward and actually confirm what and when to expect. The silence around AppGameKit is killing. I don't understand why TGC is so quiet about their plans. I was begging for an open roadmap for years but they don't listen. They don't even reply to bug reports and feature requests on GitHub. We only get bit of informations from news letters only and we can only speculate but we never know for certain anything.

Quote: "AppGameKit is staying barebone in 3D cuz they don't wont to cannibalize their own products"

They certainly having concerns people may abandon GG if there was a decent 3D level editor and engine in Studio, people could basically release FPS templates to allow people to drag `n drop fps games in AppGameKit without coding and that could instantly kill GG but even among coders, AppGameKit could provide a much better coding experience with the IDE and debugging tools than Lua in GG. It is certainly a valid concern. This is why I was suggesting to them to merge AppGameKit and GG and turn GG to be an add-on on top of AppGameKit but Lee told the 3D engine of AppGameKit is not advanced enough. But then I don't get it why AppGameKit don't use the same 3D engine as GG.

The business and marketing decisions this company making is so confusing. it is almost feels like Rick owns AppGameKit and Lee owns GameGuru and they go on their separate ways under the same TGC flag, but in reality they don't even talk to each other. It is yours, it is mine, like when you divorce from your wife but for some legal reasons you are forced to continue live together in the same house.
Vectrex71CH
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Posted: 10th Oct 2020 13:41 Edited at: 10th Oct 2020 13:45
Quote: "The business and marketing decisions this company making is so confusing. it is almost feels like Rick owns AppGameKit and Lee owns GameGuru and they go on their separate ways under the same TGC flag, but in reality they don't even talk to each other. It is yours, it is mine, like when you divorce from your wife but for some legal reasons you are forced to continue live together in the same house."


Ha ha this is very well said !!

But not only this, your whole Comment i can 100% Full acknowledge!!
Loktofeit
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Posted: 10th Oct 2020 20:20
"They certainly having concerns people may abandon GG if there was a decent 3D level editor and engine in Studio, people could basically release FPS templates to allow people to drag `n drop fps games in AppGameKit without coding and that could instantly kill GG but even among coders, AppGameKit could provide a much better coding experience with the IDE and debugging tools than Lua in GG. It is certainly a valid concern."

If that is their concern, it's short-sighted. Combine the two, create the premier multi-platform game creation kit, and then spend half the workday writing updates and the other half rolling around in piles of cash.
Cliff Mellangard 3DEGS
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Posted: 11th Oct 2020 15:02
The team is small and products are low priced.
So patience is something to have while waiting for product updates.
Loktofeit
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Posted: 11th Oct 2020 15:19
"The team is small and products are low priced.
So patience is something to have while waiting for product updates."

No one questions that.

The issue people are presenting isn't the lack of updates - it is the lack of communication.
Polaraul
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Posted: 11th Oct 2020 15:50
"The team is small and products are low priced. So patience is something to have while waiting for product updates."

I don't think the product to be low priced. For a paid product, AppGameKit should be at the top of its game when compared to the many zero cost solutions that now exist, however, in many areas it is barely adequate in comparison.

Perhaps part of the reason that AppGameKit feels abandoned (especially Classic, which did not even receive the last update) can be found over in the GameGuru forums, and I quote Zigi:

"You also stated GameGuru makes no profit and you keep it alive by taking resource from other products. So now you want to divide that already small resource in to two?
This is exactly the reason I decided to wait till September and also because you just left AppGameKit Studio unfinished already. The fact you moved Preben from AppGameKit Studio to GameGuru while GG makes no profit you say, makes me wondering then AppGameKit Studio also makes no profit and maybe makes even less than GG that is why Preben is working on GG instead of finishing AppGameKit Studio?
"

Cliff Mellangard 3DEGS
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Posted: 11th Oct 2020 21:41
the so called no price solutions usually have fees to publish to various platforms.
I have found many to use monthly subscriptions as well lately.

In the future should probably tgc have to look at build box and construct to survive and have a larger team.

Larger team more or less makes it possible to do more updates.

I have lately not bin doing any coding so really dont know about if its worse now then before?

But iam looking at other tools more or less to be able to publish on switch and xbox etc.

To publish on android is more or less broken thanks to google.
review bots and alot of crapp.
TamBam
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Posted: 12th Oct 2020 22:09
you are right update is not a problem but they have no communication with us. I put a problem in forum 2month ago "getappinstall" not work and crash. but they not even give any replay even on github. I don't know why they not look on agk i personally buy all product to support tgc. my openion it will better if they focus on single product and make some addons then we get updates frequently and they also get business to sell addons. I use Darkbasic and darkbasicpro and i buy all like dark matter dark physics dark ink etc but they stop this and move to agk. but beleave me darkbasic was very good for 3D.
psychoanima
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Posted: 13th Oct 2020 17:58
Scirra has the best methodology in my opinion, subscription fee is not high and every week there is new Construct update. And I seriously don't mind paying for that type of subscription cuz I feel satisfied with all the time new features and constant updates. TGC should learn something from other business models.
xCept
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Posted: 15th Oct 2020 22:26
Lack of communication, no roadmaps and spontaneous pivots to other products have always plagued TGC.

It was all-hands-on-deck for AppGameKit in 2012 (when AppGameKit was still an infant) but by fall-2012 TGC attempted to rework it as the long-forgotten "Freedom Engine" even while AppGameKit was suffering stability and feature deficits. That same year FPSC:Reloaded spawned out of nowhere and despite an unsuccessful Kickstarter, an anonymous donor was noted and Lee immediately shifted his focus to that project exclusively, barely to mention AppGameKit again over the next 8 years.

Lee was excellent at keeping daily developer logs during the early days of AGK/Freedom Engine and FPSC:Reloaded. It kept everyone engaged and informed about every development accomplishment and obstacle. His updates became my favorite blog(s) to catch up on each evening. Paul took over AppGameKit and although there were numerous times where weekly status updates were promised, these quickly fizzled out. Lee still seems to do a reasonable job of weekly demos and updates for Game Guru (although long gone are the days of detailed in-depth developer news as he works on it).

But AppGameKit is truly a black box with no detailed news or development plans to be found. Only a single post on TGC's news section throughout the entire summer referenced an AppGameKit update. The fact that there are numerous reported problems publishing to the Android/iOS and developers are dependent on follow-up by TGC (sometimes this takes a long time) is not really a good look. I also find some aspects of AppGameKit Studio to be misguided like the tremendous amount of effort spent developing a new IDE from scratch to replace Geany and now still feels feature incomplete (I still prefer Geany for its customization, readability and extensibility).

By contrast, you can see the level of detail Richard Davey (who used to be a big part of TGC community, newsletter editor etc.) puts into his regular development updates for his own product from just this week and is very active on Discord to answer any questions.
Zigi
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Posted: 16th Oct 2020 23:09 Edited at: 16th Oct 2020 23:19
In a way I can understand not everyone has the time and talent to write a dev log and make videos, but I would be more than happy with a public roadmap like this;
https://trello.com/b/DOouCUhR/rpg-in-a-box (note that you can scroll right on the board to see all lists and you can scroll up and down each list to see all tickets)

On Trello you can even let people vote for card and comment, start a discussion about it, pros, cons, what are the advantages, why don't bother..etc and Trello offer a free plan that let you make unlimited boards, lists and cards, you got to pay for advanced team collab admin features only. I was recommending Trello specifically for years but TGC was ignored me.

Wondering how many people dropped AppGameKit exactly because of lack of information, roadmap and plans, uncertain future, never know when a particular bug get fixed, or when certain improvements going to be implemented if ever...etc
Vectrex71CH
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Posted: 17th Oct 2020 14:29 Edited at: 17th Oct 2020 14:33
Quote: "Wondering how many people dropped AppGameKit exactly because of lack of information, roadmap and plans, uncertain future, never know when a particular bug get fixed, or when certain improvements going to be implemented if ever...etc"


Yep ! I'm one of those !

I want to make a project (not a game) and this would be a project for several years, but i stoped to see the situation !

I also already tested some free alternatives (Godot, GDevelop) If the communication would be as we expect, then this all would be not nescessary

App Game Kit Studio would be such a great product! but this lousy Product management and product maintenance drives me crazy!

And they can't see it !

And they are also not interested!! No one from TGC said a single word in this thread!

BTW: under my Profil you can see 1 year of service ! That's not true! I know and use TGC products since the good old Dark Basic times ! I lost my old account and made a new one ! So i know, the problems are here since decades !
Dark_ITheI _Angel
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Posted: 17th Oct 2020 15:12 Edited at: 17th Oct 2020 15:29
Like someone said before me, TGC dont commit to one product and make it great. I habe been long time watching and their tactic is to always come with a new toy instead of just making ONE thing good and prosperous. I long time stopped using their products and went to others but it is sad to see that for so many years not one product stands out, luckily AppGameKit export to ios and android cause if not it would be by now even more obsolete.

Furthermore,their tactic about making money was very strange,selling a product and giving updates for free. It should have been better an Agk2019 and agk 2020 and ever years one have to pay for it,more money more updates.

I am amazed that this company survived for so long when only one product can be seen as OK,..AS i see all that bull of game guru FPSC as kids toys,...but exactly there is their tactics,but once those noobs kids expand their horizon,TGC lose them.
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Posted: 17th Oct 2020 18:37 Edited at: 17th Oct 2020 18:37
Not to conjure up needless ideas, but I suspect the slow progress of AppGameKit are caused by the same thing that slows down our own personal projects, namely 'side-projects'.

Just as we had our own jobs and whatnots to keep us from completing our projects quickly, TGC aso had some unmentioned 'side projects' to generate money. It could be AppGameKit Max for 2021, or it could be some VR app for a racing team or school, or it could be something unrelated to game engine altogether. In other words, AppGameKit is not the product that generates money; TGC other undisclosed projects are the ones that did that. Thus the attention and effort are not wholly directed towards AppGameKit development. They are spent on those other projects.

As for the lack of communication, the devs also must have been put under non-disclosure agreements, not to reveal the why and when.

Just a wild guess from a mere consumer
Virtual Nomad
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Posted: 17th Oct 2020 18:52
guys, i feel some of the same frustration and it comes from the same place as many of you. we've stuck with TGC and their products for years while seeing the "potential for more" (which there will always be).

i, for one, have received 1,000 times more than what i've paid them for over the years. & because of that value, i'll continue to support them.

meanwhile, this thread has become a bash session and some of it is counter-productive and completely out of line.
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RickV
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Posted: 19th Oct 2020 15:49
This post has been marked by the post author as the answer.
I've unlocked this thread temporarily to post about this from a TGC perspective:

Hi all,

Apologies for the radio silence on this but as you know we are a small team and this one slipped the net! Let's make this very clear, AppGameKit Studio certainly isn't dead and you can be certain that TGC will continue it's development well into the future!

As you probably know we (TGC) develop our own successful apps with the AppGameKit technology, so we have a vested interest in it's future. With the #1 app on both iOS and Android here in the UK we have to ensure that Studio continues to evolve and develop over time.

Yes, it's certainly true that for a short time this year GameGuru MAX has required help from all our internal (and external) developers, but this is not a long term situation.

Looking forward we're planning a maintenance update in November and then some new features and updates in early 2021.

With limited resources we focus on development but we'll try and do better on the comms front

Rick & the team.
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Vectrex71CH
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Posted: 19th Oct 2020 16:38
Quote: "Looking forward we're planning a maintenance update in November and then some new features and updates in early 2021."


Thank you Rick !!

But, can you say a bit more about the possible up-coming new Features?

3D Editor ?

Collision Editor for better Sprite Collision

Better handling for animated Sprites ?



Or other cool things



PSY
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Posted: 19th Oct 2020 22:56
Thanks alot Rick for explaining whats going on, very much appreciated

As a side note, I'd rather see Studio and Classic fixed instead of an implemention of new features, at least the major ( game-breaking ) bugs like
https://github.com/TheGameCreators/AGK-Studio/issues/738 or https://github.com/TheGameCreators/AGK-Studio/issues/699

PSY




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marvin944
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Posted: 20th Oct 2020 00:05
Or simple things like a 'getrawfolder' command... Loads of these simple ones seem missing.
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Posted: 20th Oct 2020 00:31

I would be happy just with the framerate bug fix.
Polaraul
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Posted: 20th Oct 2020 02:00 Edited at: 20th Oct 2020 02:04
rickv wrote: "Looking forward we're planning a maintenance update in November and then some new features and updates in early 2021"


Will AppGameKit Classic be included in this road map? I have no desire to use the AppGameKit Studio IDE, and AppGameKit Classic has still to receive the last update.
Loktofeit
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Posted: 20th Oct 2020 02:05
Quote: "Looking forward we're planning a maintenance update in November and then some new features and updates in early 2021]

Will AppGameKit Classic be in this road map? I have no desire to use the AppGameKit Studio IDE, and AppGameKit Classic has still to receive the last update."


Same. I've used both AGKS and AGK2, and I far prefer Classic's features and functionality over AGKS. I am anxious to find out where, or even if, AGK2 is on the roadmap for 2021.
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Sph!nx
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Posted: 20th Oct 2020 13:26
Thanks for the reassurance, Rick!
Regards Sph!nx
bigtunacan
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Posted: 20th Oct 2020 20:07
It's good to hear that TGC has a vested interest in AppGameKit Studio. I noticed they mention having the #1 app on iOS and Android in the UK. Just out of curiosity; what product is that?

Quote: "As you probably know we (TGC) develop our own successful apps with the AppGameKit technology, so we have a vested interest in it's future. With the #1 app on both iOS and Android here in the UK we have to ensure that Studio continues to evolve and develop over time."

Bored of the Rings
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Driving test app
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blink0k
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Quote: " Just out of curiosity; what product is that?"


I do believe it is a Driving Instruction App
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Posted: 20th Oct 2020 21:44
Ah ok. I didn't realize that was a TGC app, but I have seen it in the showcase before. It's sort of interesting that the app that financially keeps them going for AppGameKit isn't a game!
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Posted: 21st Oct 2020 14:41
@bigtunacan: It's an App though.... As in AppGameKit And they basically have more stuff they sold anyway, like the Echoes+ and Echoes III games for example. The slight suggestion by some here that AppGameKit is 'too dead' in order to release a game is pretty unfair. I do think AppGameKit Studio needs to fix the more serious bugs and ensure some quality overall, but I'm not doubting TGC will do that. I personally hope AppGameKit Studio will see plenty of updates in the future, most notably in the 3D side of things. But we'll see. There are pros and cons to everything.
RickV
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Posted: 21st Oct 2020 15:53
Classic and Studio share the main core, so when we do a Studio update it's highly likely we'll do a Classic one too.
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Polaraul
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Posted: 21st Oct 2020 16:06
RickV wrote: "Classic and Studio share the main core, so when we do a Studio update it's highly likely we'll do a Classic one too"


Hi Rick. Does this mean that Classic will receive a cumulative update on the next Studio update? My main concern is that Classic has still to receive the 2020.07.28 update.
RickV
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Posted: 22nd Oct 2020 08:51
@Polaraul - yes, any new update for Classic will include features that have been added to the core of Studio.
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chafari
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Posted: 22nd Oct 2020 12:16
That is great...thanks RickV.

Cheers.
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MadBit
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Posted: 22nd Oct 2020 12:31
RickV wrote: "yes, any new update for Classic will include features that have been added to the core of Studio."


Okay. And what about the other way around? If fixes were made in the Studio core they will be updated in Classic as well?

A snippet from your last Studio update (2020.07.28)
* Fixed a crash when running a Spriter animation that had a different number of keyframes per varying value
* Spriter image pivots can now be animated
* Spriter animations now support negative scales
* Spriter files no longer need to have the same bone structure across all their animations
* Numerous other small fixes to improve Spriter support
* Added SetSpriteBlendModes to set the blend modes manually when using transparency mode 3
* Fixed SetObjectMeshImage failing to remove the image if the image ID is set to 0
* Fixed SetSpriteScissor causing the sprite to not draw if the scissor values were greater than the virtual resolution
* Calling the Mod command with a divisor of 0 will now return 0
* Added missing libMoltenVKiOS.a and libMoltenVKMac.a to Mac Tier 2 files
* Fixed auto-generated tangents being incorrect on triangles with a normal equal to -1 in the Y direction
* Fixed occasional glitches in iOS apps when using MoltenVK
* Updated Snapchat SDK on Android to version 1.4.4
* Updated Firebase SDK on Android to version 17.4.4
* Fixed apps being rejected by Apple due to a newly deprecated API

I don't know how far AppGameKit Classic would be affected by these updates. But the Classic version was updated last time in April / May.
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Loktofeit
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Posted: 22nd Oct 2020 12:40
MadBit wrote: "If fixes were made in the Studio core they will be updated in Classic as well?"


I think that's what he meant.
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Polaraul
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Posted: 22nd Oct 2020 12:49
MadBit wrote: "I don't know how far AppGameKit Classic would be affected by these updates. But the Classic version was updated last time in April / May"


My concern is that although any new update to Classic will include features that have been added to the core of Studio, there is no guarantee (given the trend set by the 2020.07.28 Studio update) that there will be an update.

MadBit
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Posted: 22nd Oct 2020 13:02
Loktofeit wrote: "I think that's what he meant."


That may be so. But it's not what my translator gave me.

or it can also be that it is typically German to put every word on the gold scale. (This is a German proverb, I don't know if it has the same meaning in English).
Damn.
Share your knowledge. It\'s a way to achieve immortality. (Tenzin Gyatso)
Xaby
FPSC Reloaded TGC Backer
14
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Joined: 17th Apr 2007
Location: Berlin
Posted: 9th Nov 2020 16:27 Edited at: 9th Nov 2020 16:30
I love it, to be back for some reading in the board. And we get the yearly, sometimes monthly question: what is TGC doing and are they dead or what?

There is a discord now for AGK. Also I guess, because of the things ... like ... US votes a new president, UK will leave the EU ... or this pandemic thing ...

my target devices are the OUYA with Android 4.1 and OpenGL ES 2.0 and someday Raspberry Pi 3 and 4.
I cared for Game Guru MAX, but it gots delayed to next year. When I bought it, I thought, okay ... in September it is useable, I could wait half a year. ...

I like App Game Kit Studio, but sometimes I need to use App Game Kit 2, because some weired things may happen in the Android 4.1 export.
Also not all plugIns work fine like the VR-stuff.

I badly wanted the Sprite-Blending commands, but they are now only on AppGameKit Studio ... I guess, they have a new name because of Steam or what.
Or still don't know how to reach bigger user base.

I came from PureBasic, they (Fantasie Software) are developing PureBasic now for 20 years, and they also only 1 person and two helper friends.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PureBasic

It was a one-time and life-long update. Last big update:
5.72 LTS / March 30, 2020

The beta 5.73 is somewhat newer.

So yeah. I guess, there are also other ways to do things. But TGC is also no Epic Games or Microsoft, they don't have and also don't need big events.
As an artist, I would like to see some more support for more file formats, skeleton animations, texture compression.
As as programmer I want to build my own tools, but I don't want to do it from scratch. native GUI commands would be nice. Even Adobe Flash Profession with Action Script 3.0 had these build in.

So yeah, in some cases AppGameKit is 10 years back in development. In some cases it is exactly what I was looking for. No slow compiling. No advertising or login inside the engine.
No need to buy all stuff from an integrated marketplace to do anything.

Game Maker Studio, Unreal Engine, Unity, even Godot got all a bit complecated. And exporting to other OSes is also not a simple task with these tools.

I am completly scewed, if TGC decides to drop support for OpenGL ES 2.0 or Android 4.1, but I hope, that till this happens, they would implement some need features.

The next two month, I will do artwork. But after that, I guess, it would also nice for me, to have some features ready to use


--> also AppGameKit Classic was free for some days a few weeks back. Got some new users. I guess, if they would abandoned completly, that would be no good marketing for those new users.
DannyD
4
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Joined: 29th Aug 2017
Location:
Posted: 11th Nov 2020 08:04
@Xaby

Got me worried aswell after they decided to postpone GGM till next year.

No new news on TGC side...

If they can just communicate more... and let the guys know whats going on.. but to keep quite.. is not always good...
Make people posting questions like " is agk studio dead"?

I don't mind waiting.. if they can tell this... this.. this is in the pipeline and we working on it...

I can kick myself start using AppGameKit 3+ years ago and develop a bunch of EduGames the past 3+ years.
Will take ages to convert to another language, and I really "like" AGK/AGKS




Bored of the Rings
16
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Joined: 25th Feb 2005
Location: Middle Earth
Posted: 11th Nov 2020 10:01 Edited at: 11th Nov 2020 10:03
I personally think they have "got out of their depth" as they are a small company and basically can't keep up with it all. Who knows when the update for AGKS will be in November. GG Max is still being worked on by several team members and Lee was on holiday. Either that or they are under another NDA. Although, to be honest they don't have to tell us anything.
Professional Programmer, languages: SAS, C++, SQL, PL-SQL, DBPro, Purebasic, JavaScript, others

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