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Orvillian
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Posted: 14th Dec 2021 09:18
The IDE for AppGameKit Classic is becoming harder to maintain for a variety of reasons. I'm interested to know if anybody is aware of an alternative open source cross platform option that we might consider to either sit alongside the current IDE or replace it.
Scraggle
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Posted: 14th Dec 2021 10:35
I'm sorry I don't have an answer for you but I'm curious to know what the issues are with Geany?
I use it daily and I haven't had any problems with it at all.
Orvillian
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Posted: 14th Dec 2021 13:03
@scraggle The way it's built on the Mac makes it quite tricky to work with (compiler problems mainly), whereas on Windows and Linux it's a bit easier to build. The version of Geany we use it quite old and perhaps we could solve our problems by updating to the latest version. Currently exploring options as maybe we could try that or see if something easier to work with might be available.
hendron
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Posted: 14th Dec 2021 15:16
What about Atom?

Gosukiwi made an AGK plugin for it a while back and I've personally found it to be preferable to the Geany editor.
Virtual Nomad
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Posted: 14th Dec 2021 15:35 Edited at: 14th Dec 2021 15:36
can atom broadcast? how hard would that be to implement where it's a must in my book. i expect it just launches the player and passes the project params in?

and, one thing i've appreciated about geany is that it seems lightweight. i tried atom when the plugin was announced and IIRC it seemed somewhat bloated.

i could be wrong. i've really only used geany
Zaxxan
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Posted: 14th Dec 2021 16:09
I really like Geany so my preference would be to try and update it to a later version as v1.24 is quite old now. I've used Atom with AoZ and I don't like it although it may be how AoZ have implemented it. I agree that the broadcast feature is a must and is one of the best features of AGK.
hendron
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Posted: 14th Dec 2021 16:20
Quote: "can atom broadcast? how hard would that be to implement where it's a must in my book. "


Good question. I didn't think about that because I only ever use AppGameKit for desktop development. Isn't broadcasting handled by a separate exe/app? I'd imagine it's not much more complicated than interfacing with the compiler/debugger, but that's just a guess. I have next to no experience with developing this kind of thing.

I don't know about bloat, but Atom has always seemed very snappy to me, even with multiple packages for various development frameworks installed. But I know that's pretty subjective and could depend on a lot of factors. I may also be a bit biased simply because Atom with the AppGameKit plugin (with a couple slight modifications to support MacOS) is what finally allowed me to work with AppGameKit Classic on my Macbook Pro's retina display. The default Geany editor is a blurry mess on it. That'd probably be fixed by updating to a newer version as well, though.
Virtual Nomad
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Posted: 14th Dec 2021 16:26 Edited at: 14th Dec 2021 16:29
i'd first update to current geany that we're all familiar with and see if that helps the devs maintain classic.

make it open source while you're at it
Zaxxan
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Posted: 14th Dec 2021 16:51
I agree, try a newer version of Geany first as I would imagine that is why a lot of people have stuck with Classic as they prefer Geany over the Studio editor.
hendron
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Posted: 14th Dec 2021 17:13
@Virtual Nomad you got me curious about the broadcasting issue so I looked into it a bit. Just to answer your question, yes, it's totally possible and technically Gosukiwi's plugin already does broadcasting -- it's how the debugger works, as pointed out in this thread.
blink0k
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Zaxxan
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Posted: 14th Dec 2021 20:16 Edited at: 14th Dec 2021 20:52
I'll download the Atom plugin and give it a try so I'm got a good comparison.

Downloaded but the compiler path is wrong. Where do I change it?

First impressions are that it isn't as intuitive as the Geany editor. Is there anyway to add buttons for things like undo, redo etc? or is there only pull down menus?
blink0k
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Posted: 14th Dec 2021 21:14 Edited at: 14th Dec 2021 21:17
MadBit
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Posted: 14th Dec 2021 21:18
AGK 1 had Code::Blocks as editor a similar and better (in my opinion) IDE would be CodeLite.
But I also vote, like some others, for the current version of Geany. Simply because it is lightweight.
However, I would recommend not to modify the editor itself to AppGameKit again. Rather write an AppGameKit plugin for Geany.
That way it would not be so maintenance intensive when new Geany patches or versions come out.

That would be my suggestion.
Share your knowledge. It\'s a way to achieve immortality. (Tenzin Gyatso)
Zaxxan
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Posted: 14th Dec 2021 21:40 Edited at: 14th Dec 2021 21:55
If we go down the Geany with a plugin route could the plugin be open source?

I've just downloaded Geany 1.38 and it looks like a decent editor and very familiar!
hendron
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Posted: 14th Dec 2021 22:18
Quote: "First impressions are that it isn't as intuitive as the Geany editor."


I won't go into all of the reasons I find Atom to be more intuitive, but the project panel alone is enough to keep me using it. Your project's folder and file structure is actually properly represented there. File management and project organization can be done directly from the project panel and it's a breeze. I haven't used the Geany editor in a long time, but if I recall correctly, all you get there is a list of all your source files with no indication as to where they are actually stored. That's fine for small projects, but for larger projects it's pretty nice (to me, essential) to have a more organized representation with collapsible folders.

That's probably the biggest reason I prefer the Atom plugin to the Geany editor (aside from it looking acceptable on a retina display), but it's nice to have some modern text editor features as well like multi-line editing, simple drag and drop editor splitting for viewing multiple source files at once, etc.
blink0k
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Posted: 14th Dec 2021 22:40
I think the problem with Geany is it wasn't working properly on mac
Zaxxan
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Posted: 14th Dec 2021 22:40
I'll spend some time with the Atom editor so I can see what the plus points are.
MadBit
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Posted: 15th Dec 2021 05:29
hendron wrote: "... all you get there is a list of all your source files with no indication as to where they are actually stored. That's fine for small projects, but for larger projects it's pretty nice (to me, essential) to have a more organized representation with collapsible folders."

That is correct.
But there is the plugin 'Geanyprj' and 'https://plugins.geany.org/projectorganizer.html' which also takes care of the directory structure.
If the functionality AppGameKit is not enough. These plugins could be extended. This would have to be checked before, if the licenses would allow this.

Quote: "I think the problem with Geany is it wasn't working properly on mac
"

I think this was due to the old code base, but with the current version the problems should be gone.
But a Mac user could test this by installing the current version of Geany.
If TGC had already set at the launch of AppGameKit on such a plugin. This problem would not have arisen in the first place.

But who knows maybe there were reasons why they chose this path.
Share your knowledge. It\'s a way to achieve immortality. (Tenzin Gyatso)
Orvillian
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Posted: 15th Dec 2021 07:43
Thanks for the suggestions.
adambiser
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Zaxxan
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Posted: 15th Dec 2021 23:06
Well I've been using Atom for most of the day and I have managed to add a tool bar (eventually)

Unfortunately I really can't get on with it and I really dislike it. The current version of Geany is so much more user friendly.
PartTimeCoder
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Posted: 15th Dec 2021 23:27 Edited at: 15th Dec 2021 23:28
NotePad++, NPPExec takes care of the broadcast and compiler stuff and plugins are easy to write, its cross platform and highly configurable and out-of-the box comes with a tonne of functionality.

Atom is ok I did try it with AppGameKit, no complaints but I'd rather see NPP become the replacement, its my GoTo for most things



What's not to love about that?
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hendron
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Posted: 16th Dec 2021 17:28 Edited at: 16th Dec 2021 17:35
Not as much love for Atom here as I'd have thought! Oh well, here are all of the major reasons that I can think of that I prefer it. Hopefully similar functionality can be included in whatever is used next, as it'd be nice to have this stuff in an officially supported editor.

- Retina/High DPI displays are supported
- Project file/folder structure is represented in the project panel
- Intellisense works for user defined functions, even when the file that defines the function is closed
- Creating, moving, copying, removing files and folders can be done directly in the project panel
- Autocomplete allows tabbing through named parameters, instead of displaying a tool-tip popup that's easy to get lost in
- Go to function definition on user functions, even when the file that defines the function is closed
- Copy file/folder project path or full path to clipboard from the project panel
- Editor splitting
- Less important, but image viewing directly in the editor has been useful
Virtual Nomad
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Posted: 16th Dec 2021 17:57 Edited at: 16th Dec 2021 17:58
i'm not against any IDE that is STABLE, moves us forward and makes it more future-proof for AppGameKit without losing anything we've already got.

re: geany, is it me or are there very few plugins? i don't think that i have any of them installed/found any of them useful. why do (relatively few?) use geany over anything else? simply because it's lightweight?

"every" list i see shows VS as #1 (for Web development). where does VS Code fall? from what i see, VS Code usage will surpass VS. i know some here use VS so why don't you use VS Code?

https://code.visualstudio.com/docs/editor/whyvscode
MadBit
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Posted: 16th Dec 2021 18:14
Quote: "I'd love to see tier 1 coding in Visual Studio."

I'm afraid Visual Studio is windows only. For MAc there is Xamarin and for Linux MonoDevelop - but these only support C#.
Another possibility would be Visual Code, which is available on all three systems.

Quote: "NotePad++, NPPExec takes care of the broadcast and compiler stuff and plugins are easy to write, its cross platform and highly configurable and out-of-the box comes with a tonne of functionality."

I love this editor. But not necessarily as an IDE. Where did you read that it is CrossPlatform? I always thought it was only for Windows.
Share your knowledge. It\'s a way to achieve immortality. (Tenzin Gyatso)
PartTimeCoder
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Posted: 16th Dec 2021 18:41
Oh dear, your right, I always thought is was cross platform, that's a shame as its a very versatile code editor

I think Atom is probably the best way to go then for the reasons outlined by hendron and as I understand, Atom is already setup and ready to go with AppGameKit so if its going to be the "chosen one" then any maintenance is the just plugin and not the whole IDE

Quote: " is it me or are there very few plugins?"


I use the split view, its very handy but that's about it all I find useful.


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Scraggle
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Posted: 16th Dec 2021 18:55
I've never tried Atom but having read Hedron's list of reasons to use it, I feel that it's definitely worth checking out.
I presume there is some setting up required?
MadBit
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Posted: 16th Dec 2021 19:19
I think visual studio code would also deserve a chance.
If an appropriate plugin were written.
For me, besides code editing, debugging is very important and the current Atom plugin can't do that.
Share your knowledge. It\'s a way to achieve immortality. (Tenzin Gyatso)
hendron
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Posted: 16th Dec 2021 20:14 Edited at: 16th Dec 2021 20:16
Quote: "debugging is very important and the current Atom plugin can't do that."


It can, but it's definitely very limited. Toggle breakpoints with f4 and check variables' status by typing them into the terminal while debugging. I wonder how complicated it'd be to extend into a fully featured debugger.

VSCode is great as well, though. Either one would be fantastic.
SFSW
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Posted: 16th Dec 2021 22:08
Some of my preferences:

- Industry standard and user-friendly UI controls, some examples:
> No skinny (hence, harder to click), arrowless, pageless, pillbar scrollbar. A fully functioning wide scrollbar.
> Clicking above or below the vertical scrollbar should page up or page down as in any other industry IDE.
> Arrow buttons at edges of vertical scrollbar to scroll line by line without losing the current cursor position.
> Control-I and Control-U indentation of highlighted text (not just tab, or at least remappable).
> Alt menu selection for top menu bar (example, Alt-F to open the file menu, arrow keys to navigate, enter select).
> Complete font and coloring options (especially the latter, should be fully customizable in menus).
> Persistent search box (no multi-step through a button search, just click in a field and type).
> Proper linking to errors and returning of line number indexes (as with current IDE's).

- No resource consumption when idle.
> Currently, even when set to 'Event based rendering', the Studio IDE eats a few tenths of CPU% and 0.7-2.4 GPU% on a powerful system. Less capable test systems lose more system resources. It also skips/jumps in resource use a lot. And it still misses some clicks/events. In contrast, the Geany based IDE in Classic behaves solidly in this regard.

- Not required or terribly important, but good for QOL factors:
> Labeled UI buttons would be nice, rather than just symbology/hieroglyphics.
> Print options for highlighted text, help docs, or entire source files.
> No news popup on -every- startup.

A newer version of Geany might be the preferred option, depending on ease of update and what impacts it may have on current functionality. Since it shares many of the same setup and configuration parameters, it may be an easier and less bug prone route.
blink0k
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Posted: 16th Dec 2021 22:44
Quote: "debugging is very important and the current Atom plugin can't do that"

I thought they did debugging through sockets?
MadBit
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Posted: 17th Dec 2021 04:55
Quote: "It can, but it's definitely very limited. Toggle breakpoints with f4 and check variables' status by typing them into the terminal while debugging."

Yes, now that you mention it I can remember it again. But as you say it is not very comfortable.
For me a minimum would be the step by step, step into, step out and step over functionality.
Keeping the manually watching variables and automatically displaying the current local variables.
Share your knowledge. It\'s a way to achieve immortality. (Tenzin Gyatso)
adambiser
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Posted: 17th Dec 2021 07:15
I tried Atom once or twice, then uninstalled it. Found it slow and awkward to use. (I didn't try it for AppGameKit code though.) I'd rather stick with geany than that unless Atom has improved recently.
Zaxxan
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Posted: 17th Dec 2021 09:56 Edited at: 17th Dec 2021 14:45
I've found that I dislike Atom that much that I would prefer to use Studio if the Classic version is downgraded by using the Atom editor.

Personally I would prefer a newer version of Geany or stick to the current version as it's rare that the IDE receives updates anyway.
hendron
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Posted: 17th Dec 2021 23:20
Quote: "I've found that I dislike Atom that much that I would prefer to use Studio if the Classic version is downgraded by using the Atom editor."


Different strokes. I like my modern text editor conveniences and the AppGameKit Geany editor makes me feel like I'm stuck about 10 years in the past. I gave the Studio IDE a fair shake as well, used it for about a month. Actually found it to be worse than Geany in a lot of ways, but at least it looks ok on a high dpi display. Honestly though, I don't care what they use as long as I don't have to have every source file open in the editor just to jump to a function definition or for autocomplete to work, lol.
Zaxxan
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Posted: 18th Dec 2021 00:25 Edited at: 18th Dec 2021 21:28
I agree about Studio being worse than Geany. it will be interesting to see what TGC decide to do if anything at all. I only program on laptops so I have not experienced any issues with high DPI but I appreciate that Geany wouldn't look good. Have you tried the latest version 1.38 of Geany to see if that looks better?
hendron
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Posted: 18th Dec 2021 18:08
Quote: "Have you tried the latest version 1.38 of Geany to see if that looks better?"


I just gave v1.38 a try. Here are my first impressions (running on a 2018 Macbook Pro with OS 11.6 for context)

+ Interface is modern and clean.
+ Looks nice and crisp on the Retina display.
+ Small install size.
+ Quick to open.
+ Toolbar by default. This isn't really a pro or a con for me as I hardly ever use it (prefer keyboard shortcuts), but I can see how a lack of one would turn people off. I'm glad it can be hidden, unlike the Studio IDE's (unless I missed the option somehow).

+/- Editor splitting. It can be done by enabling the split window plugin, but it's limited to only 2 files. Personally I prefer Atom's drag and drop docking system.

- Typing doesn't feel as snappy to me as it does in Atom, like there is a slight input lag that is just noticeable enough to be off putting. I've yet to try it on my desktop PC, so it may be different there.
- Scrolling with the MBP touch pad is awkward, it feels laggy. I have the same issue with the AppGameKit version of Geany.
- It appears that it's still not possible to create/manage folders and files directly in the side panel, even with the file browser plugin enabled. Maybe I just missed it?
- I could not get the zoom-in keyboard shortcut to work. Zoom-out worked fine, but no amount of [cmd +] or [cmd shift +] would do anything.
gosukiwi
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Posted: 10th Jan 2022 15:20 Edited at: 10th Jan 2022 19:32
Hi guys, I'm the creator of the Atom AGK package, which is basically an AppGameKit plugin for Atom. At the time, I chose Atom because it's one of the editors that I use, besides Vim, and also it's professional-grade, allowing you to install lots of useful plugins.

The thing is, Atom is slowly dying, because of VSCode. In my opinion, even though I don't like VSCode much, I think it would be more sensible to write a VSCode plugin, if you do go that route. Many languages, like Go, have VSCode as their official editor/IDE.

VSCode might be more overwhelming than Atom though, but I think you can always create your own instance with the plugins you want, and make it easy for the user to use. So users would be able to either just download a pre-configured editor, or install it as a plugin.

The advantage of Atom and VSCode is that it's pretty much platform independent. The plugin itself will run in macOS, Windows and Linux without much hassle. Another massive advantage is the huge plugin ecosystem. Users which are already developers will most likely already use some plugins, and they get to keep a familiar development environment.

Virtual Nomad wrote: "can atom broadcast? ..."

Yeah and it shouldn't even be that hard to implement, that has to do just with talking to the compiler. I just didn't have it high in my priority list because I don't use it personally

hendron wrote: "It can, but it's definitely very limited. Toggle breakpoints with f4 and check variables' status by typing them into the terminal while debugging. I wonder how complicated it'd be to extend into a fully featured debugger."


The debugger is definitely minimal. It can definitely be done to be like Visual Studio, where you step through code, I think VSCode has native support for that, and Atom supports it through plugins. At the time it consumed a lot of time to implement that in Atom, and given I'm used to Ruby and dynamic languages where you just drop in a debug line, run some code to see what the state is, then go back to the program execution, I just implemented that way, which is more than enough for my needs.

Zaxxan wrote: "I've found that I dislike Atom that much that I would prefer to use Studio if the Classic version is downgraded by using the Atom editor."


I wonder, what you do in Geany that you can't in Atom? (Besides lacking plugin features, like broadcasting)

hendron wrote: "- It appears that it's still not possible to create/manage folders and files directly in the side panel, even with the file browser plugin enabled. Maybe I just missed it?"


It is possible, you just have to right click, create file, create folder, or use ctrl-p, and type "file" or "folder" to create whatever you want. You can also drag and drop them around as you like.

Madbit wrote: "For me, besides code editing, debugging is very important and the current Atom plugin can't do that."


While it's not a traditional stepping debugger it does provide a simplistic debugging feature, where you can dynamically inspect the values rather than declaring them upfront. It's not the same user experience but I wonder what can you do with the other way that it's not possible just inspecting values?

------------

Again, I like Atom but I think VSCode is the way forward. But that's just one option. If you guys want to go with your own thing (using something like Scintilla), I think the biggest disadvantage would be that your editor would be separated from the rest of the world, kind of like it is now. ATM in the Geany editor, you can't install other plugins, you get that editor with a few configuration options and that's it.

Also making a good editor is a massive task, living as a plugin to an existing IDE/Editor could make things way faster, easier, extensible (with plugins) and cross-platform. Yet another alternative would be something like Eclipse, not a big fan but the option exists
Zaxxan
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Posted: 10th Jan 2022 21:12 Edited at: 10th Jan 2022 21:26
Quote: "I wonder, what you do in Geany that you can't in Atom? (Besides lacking plugin features, like broadcasting)
"


I have been using Geany for over 12 months and I can do everything I need to do so far. I used Atom for 2 days and I just didn't like it and found it difficult to use even setting up the toolbar was time consuming and not very successful. I use broadcasting a lot so Atom was definitely a downgrade for me. it comes down to personal choice I suppose.
gosukiwi
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Posted: 10th Jan 2022 21:50 Edited at: 10th Jan 2022 21:51
Not sure what you mean by toolbar, but yeah Atom definitely has a different way to do things than Geany, and so does VSCode. You have the command pallet (cmd-p or ctrl-p) and you can type whatever you need there, that's the Atom-ish way to do most things, besides hotkeys. Also yeah no broadcasting, although that's not Atom's fault, but my plugin's

Back to the IDE topic, I think VSCode/Atom can be configured to be beginner friendly out-of-the-box (implement whatever toolbar you want), as that would be quite important for AppGameKit, while giving power to advanced users. Also if we are talking ease of maintenance, maintaining a plugin written in a high level language should be easier than maintaining multiplatform C/C++ code.

I'm curious what other options are out there, though. I think having a plugin ecosystem for the editor would be pretty important, but maybe that's just me.
hendron
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Posted: 10th Jan 2022 22:33
Quote: "It is possible, you just have to right click, create file, create folder, or use ctrl-p, and type "file" or "folder" to create whatever you want. You can also drag and drop them around as you like."


Just to clarify, I was talking about the latest version of Geany. I know Atom can do those things, it's one of my main reasons for using it. If it wasn't for your plugin I might have stopped using AppGameKit a while ago due to the issues I have with both the Geany and Studio IDEs driving me nuts, so thanks for writing it!
gosukiwi
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Posted: 10th Jan 2022 22:59
Ohh sorry I was confused, good to know! Glad you liked my plugin

I also found it super weird to not be able to manage files using Geany.
PartTimeCoder
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Posted: 11th Jan 2022 02:52
Quote: "Virtual Nomad wrote: "can atom broadcast? ...""


I got my editor to compile, run, debug (with breakpoints and watch vars) and broadcast but broadcast and debug work better in a threaded environment and from something that can access the stdin input of the broadcaster.exe for setting the broadcast IP and debug breakpoints and watch var lists, if Atom can do all that then I see no reason why it can not be used as a full editor.

Can it run a program in a thread and push strings to stdin??

A quick and dirty PureBasic example

Debug


Broadcast


Both unfinished as my editor is on the back burner but they work, many hours of reverse engineering the IDE to get that far! lol

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