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Geek Culture / Programmers aren't good educators

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MicroMan
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Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Posted: 31st Dec 2003 04:31
I've been trying to come to grips with VB.NET (and get rid of the VB6 habits), and I've basically vacuumed the net for tutorials on various aspects. Microsofts MSDN just gets me bogged down in class and method descriptions that doesn't give me the bird's eye view of things.

I'm making progress, but it's slow. Well, I'm getting there.

However, the tutorials I find are mostly atrocious. There's just a piece of uncommented code with 'do this, and this, and this, and then do that, and voila!'. Nothing more. And the writers expect a competence far beyond what the users that need the answers that the tutorials cover can be expected to know.

No answer to the question 'why' you need to do something. Only descriptions of how to do it, in terse (often misspelled, and grammatically questionable, language).

But the same is true for the other languages too. Which is why I suggest this: programmers should get out of writing tutorials. They should hand that over to educators instead.

Or I'm just plain unlucky. Do you find this to be true as well?

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They SAID that given enough time a million monkeys with typewriters could recreate the collected works of William Shakespeare... Internet sure proved them wrong.
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Dgamer
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Posted: 31st Dec 2003 04:39 Edited at: 31st Dec 2003 04:41
Well, the programmers are writing tutorials out of their spare time without pay and you dont have to read them.

I dont have VB but I do use vc++, but the tutorials i found are thorough, very well explained, and contain commented code.

The statement below is true
The statement above is false
CattleRustler
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Posted: 31st Dec 2003 04:41
micro,

I hear you and was in the same predicament when I first started .NET 2 years ago. All I can say is keep searching, get some good books as focused to topic as possible, and I can try and help if you like. I was so ready for something better right at the time that I got my hands on vb.net that I took to it like, like, like I don't know what but I am amazed to this day at the apps I am writing.

Anything you want to know I will gladly help if I can - I claim to be NO expert but I have a ever growing vb.net arsenal - ask away!

-RUST-

VB.NET makes me all goose-pimply! http://www.mod2software.com
MicroMan
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Posted: 31st Dec 2003 05:03 Edited at: 31st Dec 2003 05:06
I'm getting there. What gets to me is really simple stuff. Like working with Winsock. In VB6 you send a string to winsock, and it transmitted it across to the other host. Errr. Didn't work in .Net, and I spent literally hours trying to figure out how the new sockets class works. Or when I had a rich text box that should be able to toggle bold, italics and change fonts. In VB6 it was easy (well, relatively) with rtfBox.selbold etc. Errr. Didn't work in .Net. I spent literally hours trying to figure out how the FontStyle system worked.

You'll just have to forgive my frustrated whine, but it's four o'clock in the morning here, and I just can't tear myself from the computer until I've solved this.... I feel I have the right to whine.



Basically, what this is the main form's constructor. When it opens it should load a specific preferences file that's dynamically stored. If the file doesn't exist, it should open the set preferences dialog.

In VB6 this was easy, but now I'm knee-deep in class descriptions.

It's probably very, very simple. I KNOW it is. But I'm not finding any info on it, at least not anything I can understand. So, I'm whining. So sue me. Or I might just be stupid.

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They SAID that given enough time a million monkeys with typewriters could recreate the collected works of William Shakespeare... Internet sure proved them wrong.
-----
CattleRustler
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Posted: 31st Dec 2003 05:54 Edited at: 31st Dec 2003 05:57
You may want to move this code out into a plain jane app sub main or to a form load event if possible, coding within the designer Region is almost (99.9% of the time) not necessary. The file not being found would definitely throw an exception which the catch would handle but I really need to see the exact full code, not psuedo or rems. I have written some serious serious apps in vb.net for my work and I think i have coded in the d-region maybe once.

post the juice

edit: another thought, instead of using an exception you may want to think about using the System.IO namespace to see if the file exists yourself. Also, winsock (com) no longer necessary with Sockes, TCP Listener, TCP Client, UDP Listener, UDP Client objects - also ado.net for db programming, and asp.net, and WMI/WML....<having chest pains> sorry - I'll stop now <down boy, down>

goose pimply

-RUST-

VB.NET makes me all goose-pimply! http://www.mod2software.com
MicroMan
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Posted: 31st Dec 2003 06:23
Never mind. I cheated. I used an FSO with COM. I just don't want to be bothered by that trivial a problem.

And there really wasn't any more code. I just didn't know how to open the file and read in variables with a UDT. Now I just use good ole FSO.

Yeah, it's relying on old stuff, but it's annoying being kept back by simple stuff.

*whine*



-----
They SAID that given enough time a million monkeys with typewriters could recreate the collected works of William Shakespeare... Internet sure proved them wrong.
-----
Dazzag
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Posted: 31st Dec 2003 09:55
Quote: "Which is why I suggest this: programmers should get out of writing tutorials. They should hand that over to educators instead"


Don't agree. What I do agree with is that *most* programmers are rubbish at that sort of thing. A lot are also rubbish in social situations. Don't think it's a coincidence. Also teaching something is completely different to programming. Different set of skills. When I used to train programmers I was amazed they still paid me so much, yet a mate of mine couldn't handle it and quit. Ho hum. We eventually came up with the idea that programmers find it hard to understand why someone can't understand something we know so well. And we forget what someone else knows. Is a bit like spoken language. Basically people go abroad and shout at people loadly thinking people will understand. We naturally think someone who can't speak our language properly or speedily is a complete idiot. Similar thing.

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
MicroMan
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Posted: 31st Dec 2003 11:34
Speaking of my codes above... Naturally I found the solution. AFTER I posted my last whine, and after I rigged the whole thing with COM FileSystemObject, and while looking for something ENTIRELY different.

But that's usually how it goes. Sigh.

And it WAS very easy. Just:

Dim fn As New File
Dim fs As New FileStream

*crying*

I'm off to bed at 10.35.

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They SAID that given enough time a million monkeys with typewriters could recreate the collected works of William Shakespeare... Internet sure proved them wrong.
-----
Damokles
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Posted: 31st Dec 2003 11:50
By the way I know some teachers, who have some quiet good programming skills. I heard them talking about VB, C++ and even DarkBASIC. So a educator-programmer mix does exist, but I never heard them talking about creating tutorials.

"Begin at the beginning, and go on till you come to the end: then stop." - Lewis Carroll
Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 31st Dec 2003 16:52
I learned VB5 from a book called Learn VB5 in 20 days. I learned it in 3 Days with that book. There is probably a similar book for VB.net.

Pincho.
CattleRustler
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Posted: 31st Dec 2003 16:59
ok, good, you found the classes under MSCORLIB.SYSTEM.IO. now promise me that in a vb.net project you'll never use FSO again, go ahead promise....

99 of the battle in .net is finding out where things went or how things changed as compared to good ol vb6, the coding, once that is figured out, is straight forward - following the rules of the new "truly OO" model.

here to help

-RUST-

VB.NET makes me all goose-pimply! http://www.mod2software.com
CattleRustler
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Posted: 31st Dec 2003 17:02
vb5 is a far cry from vb.net but vb.net should be easy to learn, especially if you have vb5/6 experience.

-RUST-

VB.NET makes me all goose-pimply! http://www.mod2software.com
MushroomHead
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Posted: 31st Dec 2003 18:38 Edited at: 31st Dec 2003 18:39
Quote: "There is probably a similar book for VB.net."


Yes, "Learn VB.NET in 600 days by Sodit Press"
Rob K
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Posted: 31st Dec 2003 20:30 Edited at: 31st Dec 2003 20:34
@micro

In my experience, rather ironically, the best and only place to look for good language tutorials are books. Anything to do with Microsoft technologies HAS to be learned from a book. But I recommend not using the Microsoft Press ones. Tutorials on the net are free for a reason. When you buy a book (which usually costs £30 odd), you are paying for someone to spend months for an expert to write a comprehensive guide.

You should look for reviews on the book as well, although be careful to ignore the ones which seem overly enthusiastic, they are often written by the authors (*cough* TGC).

MSDN is purely a reference for those who know it all already.


BlueGUI Plugin:http://blue.robert-knight.net / BlueIDE http://blueide.sf.net-Free Replacement editor for DBPro
CattleRustler
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Posted: 1st Jan 2004 02:46 Edited at: 1st Jan 2004 02:46
MicroMan

yes MSDN is a great resource and Wrox Press makes very good books, and has a pretty busy forum as well. Also take a look at http://www.dotnetforums.net

-RUST-

VB.NET makes me all goose-pimply! http://www.mod2software.com

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