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AppGameKit Studio Chat / [LOCKED] AGK 3 in 2023?

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Noob Programmer
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Posted: 21st Oct 2022 21:56
Will there be AppGameKit 3(3D Editors?) in 2023?
Dark_ITheI _Angel
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Posted: 22nd Oct 2022 11:11
Wanted to ask the same question, i mean am not even at 5% with Agks but it would certainly not hurt to know what TGC is cooking.

A 3d Editor would be a key component to bring this to the next level but then,how advanced would it be? ... Would it really boost sales to justify all that work\cost?

Questions after Questions....
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Noob Programmer
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Posted: 22nd Oct 2022 12:18
They should have done 3D Editor with AGK2 7 Years ago.....No Excuse!
Dark_ITheI _Angel
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Posted: 23rd Oct 2022 07:31
True...,That should have been a priority but to be fair,from DBC to Pro To AppGameKit,thats what it has been, a purely programming Lenguage, but an easy one and adapted for games.

I think we should be thankful that these guys still around and supporting their apps and just accept and use it for how it was meant to be, everThing else is time waste,that i lerned over the years. That said,it surely wouldnt hurt to know their plans for AGKS,if any at all.

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haliop7
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Posted: 23rd Oct 2022 12:33
but you can import export stuff from Guru 3d...
So why would we need another 3d editor?
This works perfectly if you need a 3d Editor. I think it will be a waste of time.

Improve Import/Export from Guru 3D and buy it if needed.
And do not say it is a waste of money, as you will probably need to buy AppGameKit v3... right?

I really like how you build walls and landscapes there...
With that said, It will be better if you can Export from the Known Game Engines today like Unity/Unreal, etc to AppGameKit, which will simplify everything...

Or just learn how to use Blender?...

I am sorry to say, a 3d editor is not necessary if you have Guru3D, I would appreciate a good 3d/2d shader utility rather than anything else.
Maybe more Supported platforms for export, PS, XBOX, Nintendo, etc.
smerf
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Posted: 24th Oct 2022 17:56
You can always use blender for a level editor then import the scene/level into agk using my importer https://forum.thegamecreators.com/thread/227815

Qube_
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Posted: 25th Oct 2022 22:18
Having a 3D editor would be a bad idea as that market already has better options ( Unity, Unreal Godot, etc ). They also have very tight integration as a whole package and AppGameKit just couldn't compete on any level. Much better to keep AppGameKit as purely coding as that's where its strength is. If you are designing 3D levels, characters, models, etc, then your options are vast with the 3D modellers that are already out there.

If every there was an AppGameKit 3 then the first thing would have to be native complier support. A big speed boost in raw source code compilation performance would help massively. Even things like real-time pathfinding can suck the life out your game at the moment.
W Red
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Posted: 26th Oct 2022 15:36
A 3D editor is not a bad idea, but it would also not hurt to increase the speed of the compiler and further expand the capabilities of the language. But still, I thank TGC for this product.
haliop7
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Posted: 27th Oct 2022 06:26 Edited at: 28th Oct 2022 16:21
I would prefer something like a JSON editor, or any other that is connected and we are able to use
FireBase in a much simpler way, I still have not figured out how I handle FireBase using Tier1 classic or Studio.
That would improve me much. Even to get Raw data to enable me to create a Server List, Dedicated or User based.

The only problem I have with multiplayer is that I do not want to build it in this era.
if a kid plays my game and some random Joe is cursing at him, it is an already failing game.

I know that most of the world does not have a problem with that.
And even if I Remove all kinds of Chat, just some random "Clash Royal" style Quotes or Emotions/Emojis/Stickers that I create alone, As one person
Who should guard my app, I cannot think of how I protect it, as Hackers have become really creative these days.

Multiplayer Safety and Online Secured Connection Database, Shader Utility.
Dark_ITheI _Angel
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Posted: 10th Nov 2022 02:15 Edited at: 10th Nov 2022 02:19
Ok lets be clear on this one,a 3d editor isnt a bad idea and while they could not compete,the goal should be to make it better and better with every year and release. I think that would bring good money (yearly versions 2023 ,2024 etc) and grow this community atracting non hardcore programmers.

I remember a thread here where people complained that they are programmers but an editor wouldnt take that part,only ease the pain.
And what those people dont get is that exactly that is what is hindering AGKS from becomming bigger.

Am diving into unity and its just no comparasion,not because of features,people talk too much about features yet couldnt make a game as good looking as a 90s game,.. but its about the work and hours\days it takes from your shoulders.

So somewhat its true,if TGC would have started 7 years ago i bet the user base would have grown,their revenue also and the updates more frequently. Instead its somewhat a gamble,do we get agk 2023 or DarkAGK or nothing at all cause gameguru won..

Now, i dont believe it will happen and if, then record shows they wouldnt stick to it and grow it to a super Editor year by year,sadly TGC momentum was in the darkbasic\pro era.

Wouldnt it be a dream, unity3d but BASIC code
But if not,fine by me,it is what it is and its not bad.
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Zappo
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Posted: 10th Nov 2022 17:48
What is it you mean by 3D editor?
- Do you mean something to create 3D objects (like Blender)?
- Or do you mean something to layout 3D object and build levels (a 3D level editor like in Game Guru Max)?

There is a MASSIVE difference between the two and I am unsure which one everyone is referring to.
W Red
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Posted: 10th Nov 2022 18:27
Most likely something closer to Game Guru
Dark_ITheI _Angel
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Posted: 10th Nov 2022 22:18 Edited at: 10th Nov 2022 22:30
Quote: "What is it you mean by 3D editor?"


True that, not a 3d modeler but A layout like unity,being able to easily import,texture,make changes and assign code to objects or physics or whatever in a visual way.

Thats what OP is talking about and it would have really been interesting to see,if there would have been one,all the add-ons people here would have come up with.
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Zigi
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Posted: 13th Nov 2022 11:40 Edited at: 13th Nov 2022 11:48
Quote: "the goal should be to make it better and better with every year and release. I think that would bring good money (yearly versions 2023 ,2024 etc) and grow this community atracting non hardcore programmers."


When Studio was released, TGC shared some hints regarding they are not making profit with AppGameKit and the current business model of selling AppGameKit for one time fee no longer works and they are considering a subscription service instead.
The community did immediately throw insults at TGC and each other, there was a huge discussion about this but because of the insults moderators had no choice but lock the topic and even ban people.

Since TGC did not seek community feedback anymore and did not shared any plans regarding the future.

TGC did also mentioned that a 3D editor would be a huge work to do and to maintain. It is going to depends on the success of Studio if they consider to add a 3D editor or not.
It is safe to say a 2D editor did not bring new users to AppGameKit and did not keep old users around either.

I am not against a 3D editor, but people need to understand TGC need to be certain whatever they do it is profitable. AppGameKit Classic and coding only was not profitable. Studio and 2D editor was not profitable. So it is very unlikely AppGameKit 3 and 3D editor would be profitable.

Quote: "Wouldnt it be a dream, unity3d but BASIC code"


There is Defold, Roblox, Godot, GameGuru that offer editors and very simple scripting just as easy as Tier1. It would be a nice extra but on its own a 3D editor would not bring new people or keep old people around.

Quote: "its somewhat a gamble,do we get agk 2023 or DarkAGK or nothing at all cause gameguru won.."


Exactly. This is why people leave AppGameKit and not because of lack of 3D editors and lack of features and slow performance.

1. No roadmap
2. No frequent releases
3. Uncertainty if a game breaking bug get fixed or not
4. Tier1 is somewhat too limited
5. Tier2 is too complex but for those who can manage there are better C++ frameworks and engines
6. Lack of 3rd party libraries for Tier1

But TGC did make it clear the current business model doesn't allow them to do better, they can't just release AppGameKit 3 and address all these limitations and promise to release a new update every 3 months for just $70. They are not making profit that way.

We had lots of discussions regarding that how TGC could make more profit and how to make AppGameKit more popular but nothing has changed, TGC did not implement any of our ideas not even the subscription service they hinted. We have received no communication from TGC since the release of Studio and since they told AppGameKit is making no profit.

I'm afraid it is already too late to try anything because the AppGameKit community is simply too small.
At this point my recommendation to TGC would be to drop AppGameKit (wait just read on) and instead expose the entire GameGuru engine and libraries to Lua so then using the editor and the FPS game engine would be optional. We could just use the graphics engine, physics engine, terrain engine and level editor from GameGuru and code our own game engine in Lua just the way we do it in AGK.

It could potentially please everyone
1. People prefer coding but need a 3D level editor
2. People need nothing just a graphics engine and want to code everything.
3. People need a complete game engine and prefer light scripting only.
4. People who prefer no coding and want to use a visual editor for everything.

This way everyone could be happy and TGC would need to maintain only 1 product, 1 engine, 1 language, 1 compiler and 1 codebase that suit everyone coders, scripters and no coders.
It could also open-up the possibility for the community to share completely new game engines and MODS for the existing FPS engine in GameGuru which could potentially bring new people and keep old people around.
Then we can also come back to the question if its profitable and the idea of a subscription service.

I do realise it might need significant changes in GameGuru and TGC is a small team, we had tons of discussions about this too but I just can't see how AppGameKit could survive as a stand alone product. There are better options if you just want to code everything and there are better options if you need level editors and there are also better options if you want to teach or learn programming. And yes if I am not happy with it I can use something else we also had tons of discussions about that people who are not happy should move on instead of wanting to turn AppGameKit in to Unity and I have moved on I use something else. I just had a peek to see if something is happening around here and I figured I bring some life to this topic for you guys because you seem so lonely here still complaining about lack of updates and roadmap and arguing if a visual editors is really needed or not
PartTimeCoder
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Posted: 13th Nov 2022 19:34 Edited at: 13th Nov 2022 19:35
Oh Joy, we banging this drum again, aye!

TGC are not ever going to make a 3D editor for AppGameKit .. Lee has said this many times in his YT stuff, its not going to happen... and heres why

so ... ok I am a capable coder and I know I can build a 3d editor, if I KickStarterd a 3D editor for AppGameKit would it raise the (conservative estimate) £60k to £100k that I would need to live off or what TGC would need to pay a single coder for 2 years of work ... I can tell you now it will not! not even close!

AGK provides the framework to build tools, has a plugin system and source is on Github ... if it lacks something then sorry but that's on us, all of us ...
Open Source plugins
Cl - DnD Plugin
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Zigi
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Posted: 14th Nov 2022 07:32 Edited at: 14th Nov 2022 07:33
Quote: "if I KickStarterd a 3D editor for AppGameKit would it raise the (conservative estimate) £60k to £100k that I would need to live off or what TGC would need to pay a single coder for 2 years of work"

Yep. It is not happening. Even if there was a successful kickstarter and raised £100k, the editor need to be maintained. A one time fee and £100k doesn't last forever.

Quote: "AGK provides the framework to build tools, has a plugin system and source is on Github ... if it lacks something then sorry but that's on us, all of us"

Exactly, it is perfectly capable to do just about anything. By now we should have an ecosystem of libraries and tools built and maintained by the community for the community.
Zappo
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Posted: 14th Nov 2022 12:20
Some really interesting points there Zigi and PartTimeCoder. There is a BIG issue though with building an all-encompassing GameGuru and plugins for AppGameKit...

I use AppGameKit Studio pretty much exclusively for creating mobile games and apps and I suspect many others do too. To make a GameGuru that could build mobile apps for Apple and Android I suspect would be a whole new project from scratch and introduce some big limitations. There is a similar problem with plugins, where at the moment you can't create pre-compiled plugin libraries for Android and iOS in the same way that you can for Windows, Mac and Linux. Even if you could, they would be platform dependant which steer further away from having one code base for all platforms - which I love.
Game_Code_here
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Posted: 14th Nov 2022 15:48 Edited at: 14th Nov 2022 15:49
Ok, there is coding and there is point and click and as computer programers we put together code and images and sounds and we figure out where and why.

I can not think about the reasons why APK needs a 3d editor, not one.

This is not fps creator.
GOTO HelloWorld!
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Posted: 15th Nov 2022 00:45
Well, i respectfully totally disagree.

I use AppGameKit Studio to create the programming part. But as you know, Game Guru as proved to be a great 3d editor used by many to load their 3d world into AGK. Why? Because it was simpler, faster and easier.

I now use Game Guru Max to create scenes and take screenshots that i will use to do my Menu screens, Fixed images and so on IN AppGameKit STUDIO. Of course, i could use Blender, and lose months learning that, but what if a simple 3d editor could give me what i need for my games? Why do you think GGLoader ever existed? Because it was a good idea.

Now if people say it would take away the team effort from updating GameGuru Max or AppGameKit Studio, i can agree with that. But to say it is not something people would be interrested in, that is a step i am not taking. In fact, i remember i had done a 3d editor for Dark Basic classic and i can tell you it was VERY USEFUL. Not everyone want to spend their days learning Blender. Some of us, only have limited time to devote to our beloved programming hobby.

It is true that you can create it yourself if you really want a 3d Editor, but i am just starting to use AppGameKit Studio and i am yet not familiar with the language. Creating a 3d editor would be a major undertaking (as it was when i created my own in Dark Basic Classic). So if there was a good 3d editor for AppGameKit Studio, i would have bought it a long time ago, and i would probably have been doing more with AppGameKit Studio by now...which would have help bring more people to be interrested into AppGameKit Studio and thus, more money for the team...

just my 2 cents guys, i would have paid 30$ for a simple 3d Editor that would have work decently with AppGameKit Studio... and even more if it was impressive enough with good assets.
Virtual Nomad
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Posted: 15th Nov 2022 01:16 Edited at: 15th Nov 2022 01:31
this topic always confuses me when it comes up.

does the OP expect a full-fledged 3D Editor with all the "bells and whistles" (which is what i think most are talking about? - correct me if i'm wrong) or just a simple 3D Placement editor (which is much more realistic, IMHO , and all that i would want).

if i wanted more than that, i'd use GG. and, with the requirement of JDK, things are already "bloated" IMHO. i dont want much "more" under the hood.

instead, i just want something to help me place/edit objects where i want them instead of my current SetObjectPosition, Run, Adjust, Rinse and Repeat.

i don't do a lot of 3D but when i do some, i sometimes want some randomness to object placement just to change play up a bit and that's all code. then, when i do want to do more 3D stuff, i really think coding my own placement editor (versus someone else's "preferred" version) is easy enough (it's also why i dont use Studio's placement editor. i just prefer to code a custom editor, on a per project basis re-using bits from previous versions that fit the project).

meanwhile, no one has taken this project further in the 5 years since it was posted. i've skimmed through it in the past and it's more than i would want (plus i'm not up for learning someone else's code) but IIRC, it "works" ?

finally, i requested 3D Debug (which we've never seen for some reason, while Character Controllers already have it (it simply shows the "ugly" Capsule)) but i really could code something better and i'm sure a lot of us could. otherwise, give me CreateObejctFromImage() and Modern 3D File support and that's all i could want and (frankly) more than i need.

/2 cents

add: i'm giving this thread a chance to be productive unlike all of the other "TGC NEEDS TO DO THIS" threads which end up trolling, flame bait or otherwise inappropriate content. but it started out with 2 strikes against it, so...
GOTO HelloWorld!
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Posted: 15th Nov 2022 13:49


3d Debug... Wow, actually that could be a great 'verifier' within the 3d Editor. Alongside Random Placement (for herbs, trees, algae, etc...).

My 3d Editor was just able to do; load object, scale it, make it static or dynamic, texture object, scroll object texture, change texture, place object with all 3d rotation possible, fine positioning, create static collision box, save and load an entire scene, give it a name. That was enough for me. The best part was the ability to actually SEE your 3d object before loading it. I could also make it snap its rotation to increment of 5, 10, 15, 30, 60 and 90 degrees, so it would easily position walls and pipes and so on that need that snapping ability.

All of this to say if i was good enough with AppGameKit, i would have created one and either give it away to the community or sell it.

But how many would have need for it? That i don't know. How many would have been inspired to do 3d with it? That i don't know either.



Dark_ITheI _Angel
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Posted: 17th Nov 2022 21:41 Edited at: 17th Nov 2022 21:49
Quote: "When Studio was released, TGC shared some hints regarding they are not making profit with AppGameKit and the current business model of selling AppGameKit for one time fee no longer works ....
"

Its something i have seen, people want better things yet arent willing to pay for it. But dont get me wrong on this,subscription is not something i like, i rather have yearly updates.

I agree with many of your points and i didnt know it was THAT bad with their products, thank you for the insight but i do believe a 3D editor would be profitable BUT it would be a long Road. In order to attract people one has to put ads on youtube,advertise it wherever one can. Another part are the projects beeing made with it, people like to see nice screenshots. Now, do they have the time,money and motivation to go that road? i dont know. would it be worth it? no one could tell but i believe it could.

Quote: "I'm afraid it is already too late to try anything because the AppGameKit community is simply too small."

I think there is the key issue, it went small because what people loved died. DB and Pro was what people loved and a Brand name, it got killed, one dont kill its brand name. Its like Adidas changing name to MaTunGA, Very bad move,there something psychological in names and brands. Another part is also, They like to split their userbase, right now i see DB Nostalgics\ pro , AppGameKit fans and GG-fans, One community splitt into pieces with just one team working it all, Instead of having one master application to rule them all.
I also say their high times are gone, I remember how vibrant the DB times were, with home pages in all different lenguages, big german community, all that gone, Big Mistakes were done i would say.

But well, it is how it is and i mean no harm , just thinking out loud but still thankful they didnt completetly die, unlike so many others.. AGain, Thank you for the insight on TGC situation.
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Virtual Nomad
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Posted: 17th Nov 2022 22:34 Edited at: 17th Nov 2022 22:57
Quote: "Will there be AppGameKit 3(3D Editors?) in 2023?"

while "AGK3 in 2023" has a nice ring to it, only time will tell.

i don't work or speak for TGC but i do know that some of the work that is happening is intent on seeing AppGameKit move forward. it may not be at the pace we'd all like to see, but "forward" none-the-less. AppGameKit is their baby, as is TGC, and i thoroughly accept the decisions they've made, and will, as theirs alone.

meanwhile, i don't see how this thread can become productive beyond acknowledgement that many of us want to see AppGameKit evolve and some semblance of a 3D editor which, at this point, i expect is going to come from the Community.

and, i'd love to see what we can do with that notion

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