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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / Dark Basic Pro - is it worth it?

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heartbone
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Posted: 7th Jan 2004 23:49 Edited at: 7th Jan 2004 23:52
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DrakeX: "they are self serving ones. Why shouldn't individuals?"
huh?

It means why can't individuals (like myself) make generalizations about a corporate entity like M$?

As an aside, you've known my online persona pretty well, we've interacted for over a year now.
Do you know what a Red HErring is?

Now be fair. (In this thread) I have not made any sweeping generalizations about M$.

Why did you type what you did? Habit?

"how long have you been waiting? lol "

Three or four days now.

Peace, the anti-Bush.
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heartbone
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Posted: 8th Jan 2004 00:11 Edited at: 8th Jan 2004 00:20
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Neophyte dander down please. I am glad that a few of you can get that sweet eyecandy, and I wouldn't dream of forcing you to program your app using DX7 or 8. We can both agree that DX9 is a good thing in the proper place.

It's just that I detest the idea of throwing away so much of my AMOS & DB knowledge and using another BASIC, because of a lousy design decision that could be readily fixed. Easy to do? Probably not, but clearly not impossible as some around here indicate. Based on another thread, it's a desired capability by more than a few developers (customers).

I really wanted DBPro to be the last development system that I'd use until Linux was ready with something as good as DBC.

BTW, the M$ DX9.0b redist download is 35.07 MB not "just" 20 MB as you just typed. An insignificant 5% of a 700 MB CD-R, but one long a$$ download. [46% completed - 1:20:00 estimated time left]

Peace, the anti-Bush.
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Neophyte
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Posted: 8th Jan 2004 00:30
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@Heartbone

"I detest the idea of throwing away so much of my AMOS & DB knowledge and using another BASIC, because of a lousy design decision that could be readily fixed."

Why would you need to throw it away?

"Based on another thread, it's a desired capability by more than a few developers (customers)."

Desired only because most(present company excluded) don't know the amount of difficultly that would have to go into it. If they knew what that would mean for the langauge and the amount of problems it would introduce with having two(if not three if you are serious about the DX 7 thing)seperate code bases that needed to be worked from then I think that they would reconsider.

"BTW, the M$ DX9.0b redist download is 35.07 MB not "only" 20 MB as you just typed. "

I stand corrected. But so does my point about it being easily included with a cd.

DX 7 is simply way too much work to make happen, but DX 8 might and I can't stress that word enough, be plausible. What could happen is that Lee could release a compiler-only update for patch 4.1 era DBPro. That would fix the compiler bugs that are left in that patch but would skip over the complexity of having to constantly be dealing with the old engine.

The compiler, I think, would be much more easily mantained than the engine could ever hope to be because all that would need to be removed are some links to the commands added after patch 4.1.

Would that be an acceptable solution?
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Rob K
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Posted: 8th Jan 2004 00:45 Edited at: 8th Jan 2004 00:46
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Nobody should expect U6 any time soon. Whilst all of the new features are complete, or pretty close to complete, Lee hasn't started fixing bugs yet (or at least hasn't mentioned any fixes on DBDN). Mid Febuary at the earliest.

Theoretically at least, the U6 compiler should work with the P4.1 3D DLLs.


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heartbone
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Posted: 8th Jan 2004 00:47
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Neophyte any solution that allowed to users desiring to build DBP executables under DX8.1 do so while getting the bugs fixed would be acceptable. But it is not a good solution having two compilers.

In the days of modular object oriented programming enabled by Visual Studio I can't imagine why there would be a need for two seperate compilers being presented to users to accomplish this. Unless maybe there is some design problem with DirectX?

A DX7 DBP compiler would be nice but since it never existed, it has netzero likelyhood of happening.

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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 8th Jan 2004 00:55
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Krush - Yes I do - brought Torque a couple of years ago (rather a waste of money too). Lousy documentation for use in C, and seemed to be geared towards just using the scripting system.


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Krush
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Posted: 8th Jan 2004 01:06
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Quote: "Lousy documentation for use in C, and seemed to be geared towards just using the scripting system"


Yes indeed, the documentation has come a long way in a couple of years, but still it is geared towards using the scripting. This makes it ideal for the types of games it is designed for, but perhaps less flexible for other designs. Not having personal experience with them, I wonder if the other (very expensive) game engines out there are any better? If they aren't significantly better, than that would be the correct basis for comparison, IMHO.
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Neophyte
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Posted: 8th Jan 2004 01:09
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@heartbone

As RobK suggested, it would be possible to have the current compiler use DirectX 8.1 dlls theoretically. I'm not sure how Lee coded the compiler so I can't say for any certainty.

However, I'm pretty sure that somekind of variable or setting would have to prevent it from thinking that set effect on was a vaild command for the current dlls that it is trying to link.
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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 8th Jan 2004 01:13
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The problem with using two sets of DirectX interfaces is that all plug-ins would require a lot of addition work to make then run for both DX8 and 9.

If that did happen, most people would start charging for using plug-ins.


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heartbone
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Posted: 8th Jan 2004 01:13
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...a small possibility exists then....

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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 8th Jan 2004 01:15
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Yes, about as much chance as me becoming President of the United States...


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heartbone
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Posted: 8th Jan 2004 01:19
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TCA I'm curious, what happens when DX10 comes along?

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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 8th Jan 2004 01:23
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It wont until near the time Longhorn comes out in a year or so. By that time, DBPro will be either in a new version or upgraded to the max. It'll probably use DX9 for a short while and then go to DX10.

Either way, I'll have Longhorn and probably a new computer too...


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IanM
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Posted: 8th Jan 2004 01:37
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I *think* that I read somewhere that DX10 would be available for Longhorn only, and it's unlikely that DBPro would be upgraded in-toto as you would lose all customers that don't have longhorn.

Getting people to upgrade DX to run your game is one thing, but getting them to upgrade their OS is entirely different.

For free Plug-ins, source and the DBPro Interface library for Visual C++ 6 and .NET
http://www.matrix1.demon.co.uk
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CloseToPerfect
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Posted: 8th Jan 2004 03:28
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Quote: "It wont until near the time Longhorn comes out in a year or so. By that time, DBPro will be either in a new version or upgraded to the max."


so next year TGC is going to stop fixing DBP and release a new version we will have to buy? will they stop supporting DBP like they stop supporting DBC?
Oh this is very dishearting news indeed.

Lifes short, try to enjoy it and not take it to seriously!
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zircher
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Posted: 8th Jan 2004 03:32
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@Neophyte, thanks for the info and analysis.

FYI, my game dev interests are towards wargames and play by e-mail games. So, I tend to target casual and non-power gamers. I still have my concerns about expecting the users to have the latest video drivers. Since DirectX runtimes can fit on a CD, I really should not be too worried there. BTW, I do sell games, paper games on CD-ROM of all things. I tend to give my game playing software away and thus do not have the compatibility pressures one would have if they were trying to earn a living at it.
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DrakeX
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Posted: 8th Jan 2004 04:57 Edited at: 8th Jan 2004 04:58
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"Do you know what a Red HErring is?"

no, actually i don't

you said "How could I have ever questioned the wisdom of Microsoft?" as if what they're doing is the wrong thing. i typed what i did because you seem to think every decision microsoft makes is terrible and will only serve to lose customers and make things obsolete. in reality this does not happen.

you seem pretty cynical about something so temporary anyway. what do you expect them to do, support 10-year-old operating systems forever? (that's a weird thought, win95 is almost 10..!) things move ahead, and in the computer industry, FAST. people do not want to sit still in this industry; this is why new technology comes out every 6 months, why new OSes come out every few years.

you seem to be being dragged kicking and screaming through the new things. i hate to tell you this but your computer and its OS will not last forever. i don't know your exact specs but IIRC they're about 4 or 5 years old now. that is ANCIENT in hardware terms. if your computer does what you need it to do, that's great -- just don't complain when people no longer want to support it in 4 years when your OS is 10 years old.

there are 2 extremes in computing -- those who buy the newest when it comes out, and those who don't buy something new until the old one physically breaks. it's not a good idea to be in either camp.

"will they stop supporting DBP like they stop supporting DBC?"

what makes you think they wouldn't?

athlon xp 2000+ | radeon 9500 pro 128mb | 512MB DDR | winXP pro | DBP 5.1b | B3D 1.85 | VC++ 6
predicted DBP P6 release date: March 28, 2004
DBP has made me bitter.
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heartbone
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Posted: 8th Jan 2004 06:03
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Microsoft stopped support for the 8+ year old Windows 95 OS a couple of years back.

One could still buy Windows98SE brand spanking new in the box at STAPLES last spring. Certainly that is not a 10 year old OS. Yet support is being dropped next week. That is forced obsolescence powered by greed.

I retired my ATARI 8-bits in 1995. I know when to stop. My lovely Amigas are back in the box. Of course Windows 9X will not last forever, but it is not time for it to die either, it can still do the job. Right? Unless that job is making the rich richer.

Peace, the anti-Bush.
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heartbone
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Posted: 8th Jan 2004 06:05
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red herring n : a diversion intended to distract attention from the real issue

As in you typing about M$ when the topic was DarkBASIC Pro.

Peace, the anti-Bush.
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heartbone
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Posted: 8th Jan 2004 06:22
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You've speculated about my systems more than once.

*** My Main System ***
AMD Athlon 1200 usually underclocked at 900MHz for longevity
Asus A7S-VM Motherboard w/512 MB RAM (onboard NIC, Sis video, ...)
Turtle Beach Montego II Quadzilla sound card
nVidia GeForce200MX 32MB PCI
CDR 16x10x40x
DVD ROM
40 GB Hard Drive
15" Sony Triniton
Microsoft Windows 98 SE
ALL the patches
DirectX 8.1
MSIE 5.5 SP2
WMediaPlayer 7.1
Eudora 5.1
------------------------------------
***** My second system*****
COMPAQ PRESARIO Notebook 2135US
15" Active matrix TFT (looked muchbetter than the Toshiba)
1.8GhZ Intel Celeron
256 MB RAM
30 MB HD
onboard ATI Radeon 9000
Combo DVD-CDR
(no floppy)
Win XP Home SP1
DirectX8.1 (I'll be putting DX9 on this)
Most of the patches
Netscape 6
Eudora 5.2
------------------------------------
My sigoth has a 1.4 Ghz Duron w/256 MB and onboard everything.
------------------------------------
I have another 366Mhz Cyrix eMachine Win98OE that I use for testing. And an 333Mhz Windows95 machine that I've pulled the IDE cables from.

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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 8th Jan 2004 10:24 Edited at: 8th Jan 2004 10:26
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Quote: "so next year TGC is going to stop fixing DBP and release a new version we will have to buy? will they stop supporting DBP like they stop supporting DBC?"

I've no idea - its what I conjecture...

I think there will be a downloadable version of DX10 for non-Longhorn machines. Windows XP & Server 2003 almost certainly, 2000 maybe and 98/SE/ME highly doubtful. IE7 will follow the same pattern...


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Rob K
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Posted: 8th Jan 2004 11:54
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Quote: "Unless maybe there is some design problem with DirectX?"


Welcome to Microsoft country


BlueGUI Plugin:http://blue.robert-knight.net / BlueIDE http://blueide.sf.net-Free Replacement editor for DBPro
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heartbone
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Posted: 8th Jan 2004 20:58
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O.T. sort of.

dx71 7.01 MB
DX81eng 11.5 MB
dx90update_redist 35.0 MB

Could anybody with curve plotting software care to extrapolate the DX10 size and give me the curve equation?

Peace, the anti-Bush.
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zircher
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Posted: 8th Jan 2004 21:13
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Well, you jumped by 4 megs and then by 24 megs so the next logical number in the sequence is 7+(24*6) = 151 megs followed by 7+(144*6) = 871 megs for DirectXI.
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DMXtra
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Posted: 8th Jan 2004 23:57
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When I downloaded DX 9 for my Windows XP machine, it wasn't 35 megabytes. I can honestly tell you that. I can't remember the exact size, but it was more like around 15 megabytes.

DX 9's Direct Play is a lot faster than DX 7 Direct Play, its like a night and day speed difference. Its also been upgraded for firewall's.

Upgrade 6 should have the DX 9 upgraded version of Direct Play.

Also on another note, Windows 9x is so horrible anyway, why would you want a MSDOS type OS anyway?

There are a lot of people who hate Microsoft and think their OS's suck, but then you ask them what kind of OS are they using and getting blue screens of death on and your answer all of the time is Windows 9x version.

Its the same for Macintosh, anyone who uses a Mac before OS X, should upgrade to OS X by buying a new computer. All of those old OS's are so crash prone and sucky that they are not worth of any use.

Here is the problem with the computer industry.

1) People using old out of date OS's and/or software that crash a lot and are based on MSDOS or MAC OS's that are less than X.

2) People with out of date hardware trying to run modern games and programs.

3) People with cheap solutions and poor solutions of computers with video chips built in to their motherboards (emachines for example).

So outdated software and hardware and the cheapest of all hardware (read near free) are the problems of not just DBPro and not just Direct X, but also of the entire computer industry. It does more harm than good.

This is why Longhorn is so great, its going to create a standard so that you have to have at least 64 megabytes of ram on your video card and you have to have DX 9 like features to be able to qualify and this is what I want because then you know that nobody with crap hardware and old hardware/OS can't run the OS and thats just fine with me because I don't care about those people anyway that mostly play games on xbox or PS2.

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DrakeX
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Posted: 9th Jan 2004 00:14
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"but it was more like around 15 megabytes"

yes, actually it was. or something like 21MB. it wan't near 35, i can tell you that, cause i never would have downloaded it if it were.

"forced obsolescence powered by greed"

it's forced obsolescence powered by time and newer things, not to mention the inability for a company to support things forever.

and really -- what a major loss if MS stops supporting an old OS! it's fully patched by now. yes, you can buy it off the shelf, but most people who are computer-illiterate will (1) buy a new computer with XP or (2) buy XP because it's the newest. anyone who still has 98 will still be able to get support at the god-knows-how-many sites for it, and chances are they'll know someone who knows how to use computers. most of the time people call their friends for help, not the company. last time i looked, there's not a mass revolt against MS for dropping support of 98.

athlon xp 2000+ | radeon 9500 pro 128mb | 512MB DDR | winXP pro | DBP 5.1b | B3D 1.85 | VC++ 6
predicted DBP P6 release date: March 28, 2004
DBP has made me bitter.
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the_winch
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Posted: 9th Jan 2004 00:38
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Quote: "yes, actually it was. or something like 21MB. it wan't near 35, i can tell you that, cause i never would have downloaded it if it were."


http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyId=A6DEE0DB-DCCE-43EA-87BB-7C7E1FD1EAA2&displaylang=en
Almost exactly 35Mb.

Quote: "This is why Longhorn is so great, its going to create a standard so that you have to have at least 64 megabytes of ram on your video card and you have to have DX 9 like features to be able to qualify and this is what I want because then you know that nobody with crap hardware and old hardware/OS can't run the OS and thats just fine with me because I don't care about those people anyway that mostly play games on xbox or PS2"


64mb cards are starting to get out of date now, by the time longhorn comes out 64mb cards are going to be several years out of date. I also doubt microsoft will cut out 90% of it's customers with high sytem requirements, most windows users are NOT hardcore gamers. You might not care about people that arn't willing to spend a fortune keeping there system upto date but microsoft needs them to keep making a profit.

dbpro : 2ghz p4m : 512mb : geforce 4 4200 go
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Syntax Terror
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Posted: 9th Jan 2004 02:21
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WoW! is this thing still going on?

Well I've made up my mind. I'll go for Blitz3D wich seems to
fit my needs for shareware developing.

Thanks all for the help and good luck with U6
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heartbone
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Posted: 9th Jan 2004 03:11
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Good Luck Syntax Terror. COme back to post your results.

@DrakeX based on what you and DMXtra are reporting... 15 to 21 to 35, this sucka is expanding at an exponential rate. Better curve fit to an exponential equation. Drake don't you have a TI graphic calculator?

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heartbone
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Posted: 9th Jan 2004 06:52
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I suppose if I want something like this done, I'll have to do it myself.

The data points are generated from
1999 DX7 (7.01MB)
2001 DX8 (11.5MB)
2003 DX9 (35.0MB)
Offsets from 1999 are 0, 2 and 4 years

(0,7.01)
(2,11.5)
(4,35.0)



I decided on this form:
y = a * e^bx + c

Which yields these coefficients:
a = 1.2904410372378327664933E+00
b = 7.8067588553032762899164E-01
c = 5.5240306602608502117846E+00

So the exponential equation that describes the DirectX growth is

file size= 1.29*e^(.781*elapsed years)+ 5.52

Assuming that there will be the standard 2 years between DX9 and DX10 the filesize can be found by direct substitution.

The projected 2005 DX10 file size = 1.29*e^(.781*6)+ 5.52

This actually seems just about right.

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Neophyte
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Posted: 9th Jan 2004 07:39
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But to be fair, DX 9 includes DX 7 and DX 8.1 along with it. DX 7 never had to deal with this or at least I don't think it did. DX 8 only dealt with 7 and not 6(which if I recall correctly, was abandoned pretty quick). So I'm not too sure that it would get that much larger than 35 mb.
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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 9th Jan 2004 12:06 Edited at: 9th Jan 2004 12:08
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With each DirectX you also get the preceeding versions as well (which is stupid, but typical Microsoft), so for DX9 you get DX8, DX7, DX5 and DX3. Likewise for DX8 you get preceeding ones.

What Microsoft should do (aside from getting rid of the stupid COM interface) is make each version a seperate download, and only contains one version. Or failing that, dont include DX5 and 3 (who uses those now anyway)?

Then, if you try something for a DX version you dont have, it displays a prompt asking if you want to download & install the relevant version.


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Rage_Matrix
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Posted: 9th Jan 2004 13:24 Edited at: 9th Jan 2004 13:26
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Thats stupid. The whole point of including the previous COM interfaces is so the latest version of DirectX is all that is required to run any game written using DirectX, whatever version it may be. If you do it your way, people will need to download multiple versions of DirectX, invalidating the point of COM in the first place and the whole point of DirectX, which is to make running games on Windows as painless as possible. With harddrives so big these days (120GB+) does it really make a difference?

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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 9th Jan 2004 15:34 Edited at: 9th Jan 2004 15:39
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Quote: "If you do it your way, people will need to download multiple versions of DirectX"

Which is the whole point - you would then only need the DirectX versions you actually use. It would be easy to install from a CD or download from the internet and then continue with the program. It would only need to be done for each new version, saving time and space.

Quote: "invalidating the point of COM "

Which is good - COM is not really needed any more (if it was anyway).

As a side note, does anyone know if the GetPrivateProfileString etc will (finally) be removed from Longhorn or will they still be kept for 'backwards compatability' ?


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Sly D
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Posted: 9th Jan 2004 23:18
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TCA is does have a point here, I can understand including DX7 and DX8 but DX5 and 3?! Plain BS...

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Mentor
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Posted: 9th Jan 2004 23:29
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speak for yourself, I have some speech, formulae and graphics software (plus a couple of serial programming interfaces) that run under DX5, this dangfernal machine is here to serve ME, not the other way around, if I want it to run ancient software, then it had damn well better do so, or there WILL be trouble

Mentor.

System spec : Pentium 3.0Ghz, 512MB DDR, 2x160Gb HD (using icewave hd coolers ), DVD RW/CD RW (all modes), multimedia front panel, 6 way surround sound, ATI radeon 9800Pro 128mb.
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DMXtra
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Posted: 10th Jan 2004 00:01
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Well it maybe 35 megabytes for Windows 98 which needs every .DLL in existance because its so out of date and crappy, but on Windows XP with Direct X 8.1 upgrade to 9 was not that big. Sorry, it wasn't. I remember it wasn't 35 megabytes.

Good luck with your shareware games, I can promise you that they won't sell as thats the market, but remember I tried to warn you.

Thats what makes me laugh, so many people think they are going to get a ton of money selling thier little Indie game and they never do well as they hoped. Its the market silly. Most indie games that I have seen over in all other communities end up selling to other indie developers and a few other people and thats about it.

Now when talking about indie games, I mean the download .exe kind that you have to install or download the .zip file and not the Java type games online or the shockwave kind.

Dark Basic Pro - The Bedroom Coder's Language of choice for the 21st Century.
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DMXtra
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Posted: 10th Jan 2004 00:05
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Heartbone,

See that percentage for Windows 95 in your chart? Thats going to be the percentage for Windows 98 in two years from now--when Windows Longhorn comes out.

All sucky OS's from Microsoft must die and dial up analog modems must die and crappy motherboards with built in useless video chips must die.

Dark Basic Pro - The Bedroom Coder's Language of choice for the 21st Century.
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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 10th Jan 2004 00:15
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Quote: "All sucky OS's from Microsoft"

No viable alternative.

Quote: "dial up analog modems must die"

Too right.

Quote: "crappy motherboards with built in useless video chips"

Right again...


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heartbone
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Posted: 10th Jan 2004 00:37 Edited at: 10th Jan 2004 00:47
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I am responding to acknowledge that I read your post DMXtra. The 35 MB download is not Windows 98 specific. It is the redistributable download that you'll get from sources like magazine cover discs. It must handle all systems.

"Good luck with your shareware games, I can promise you that they won't sell as thats the market, but remember I tried to warn you."

You didn't try, you did warn me. You might be surprised to know I agree with you about the futility of indie games production, I've been doing it for over 20 years now. So your words of discouragement are a little inappropriate. There is no harm in trying is there?

What gets me is that there are so many people like you who talk about how crappy Windows 98 is and recommend the immediate acquisition of XP. More often than not these same individuals were singing a totally different tune a few years ago about how wonderful Windows 98 was.

"See that percentage for Windows 95 in your chart? Thats going to be the percentage for Windows 98 in two years from now--when Windows Longhorn comes out."
1% Win98 when Longhorn is released? I wish that there were a way to make online personal wagers, a WagerPal, because I'd make you back that projection up. You are way off, double digits for sure.

Think about this. The reason that Windows 95 is down to only 1% is because a significant number of users did not have to pay to upgrade to Windows 98 or Windows 2000 and took advantage of the situation. That won't be as easy to do for the next OS level migration.

Peace, the anti-Bush.
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Kevin Picone
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Posted: 10th Jan 2004 00:54 Edited at: 10th Jan 2004 00:56
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Quote: " Good luck with your shareware games, I can promise you that they won't sell as thats the market, but remember I tried to warn you.
"


ok i'll bite, So you have personal experience in this field right ?. If you don't, how can anybody take this type of (-know it all-) advice seriously ?.

The reality is, those with an ounce of marketing ability, a pinch of talent / determination and TIME!!!! (product quality is virtually immaterial.. ) can generate revenue online. It's not rocket science.

Unfortunately though, most people are too impatient for this model, as they anticipate 'quick money' online. Like every business, if you treat it like a hobby, it pays like one.

Kevin Picone
Play Basic - Visible Worlds - Kyruss II
[url]www.underwaredesign.com[/url]
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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 10th Jan 2004 01:08
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Quote: "More often than not these same individuals were singing a totally different tune a few years ago about how wonderful Windows 98 was"

Dont think anyone thought it was wonderful - it was just needed.


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DMXtra
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Posted: 10th Jan 2004 03:49
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Quote: "
What gets me is that there are so many people like you who talk about how crappy Windows 98 is and recommend the immediate acquisition of XP. More often than not these same individuals were singing a totally different tune a few years ago about how wonderful Windows 98 was.
"


Its not that Windows 98 was any good, its just that there was no decent alternative.

I personally didn't like how crash worthy Windows 98 was and how the multitasking was very poor on it.

Now that Microsoft has abandoned their old crap OS's, maybe people might actually get a modern OS with a modern computer setup to play today's games and today's software. Ya think?

By the time LongHorn comes out, a lot of people will be ready to do the upgrade thing from Windows 98 to Longhorn and buy a new PC or some will upgrade.

Those that refuse to upgrade from Windows 98 will have video game consoles for their kids to play with or be stuck to be computer illiterate.

LongHorn is not just a small upgrade and is well worth upgrading if you want those features. windows 98 compared to Windows 95 is a small upgrade in my opinion, but a lot of people upgraded.

Dark Basic Pro - The Bedroom Coder's Language of choice for the 21st Century.
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DMXtra
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Posted: 10th Jan 2004 04:00
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I just don't see anyone making that much money off of indie games and I am not trying to be a troll like some of you suggest, but just tell it like it really is.

Now I am making this statement on indie games that you download and install in some way. I just don't see that much money in this unless you have a huge budget the size of ID Software and have that much talent, but nobody I have seen does.

I also don't think a lot of people with obsolete systems will pay for, download, and install indie games.

I know a lot of people with old Windows machines and have old video cards and old processors, yet none of them play games on a computer. They either don't play games at all or have video game consoles like PS2 or Xbox instead.

Of course there is a small amount with DX 9 installed as well, but those are also growing and will continue to grow as games like Half Life 2, and Doom 3 come on the market.

Dark Basic Pro - The Bedroom Coder's Language of choice for the 21st Century.
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DMXtra
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Posted: 10th Jan 2004 04:11
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Quote: "
I am responding to acknowledge that I read your post DMXtra. The 35 MB download is not Windows 98 specific. It is the redistributable download that you'll get from sources like magazine cover discs. It must handle all systems.
"


Well thats a good reason just to dump older systems. I never downloaded DX for all systems, just for Windows XP Service Pack 1 and DX 8.1 installed.

Microsoft checks your OS with that little download program that they have. A lot of people who upgraded to DX 9, used this method so it wasn't 35 megabytes for them.

Dark Basic Pro - The Bedroom Coder's Language of choice for the 21st Century.
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heartbone
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Posted: 10th Jan 2004 20:10
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As A RULE I NEVER let M$ push anything onto my OS.
If I can't download it I wait until I can.

As of this time I have all of the Win98 patches installed and archived in multiple locations. This means that I can restore my OS to its current state on my new motherboard once I decide to buy one without any intervention by M$. Something that you can not do. Perhaps that is not as important to you as it is to me, since your OS is still "supported".

Your reasoning for dumping older systems is questionable. The only reason to dump older systems is if they prevent you from getting work done. Of course you actually would have to be performing work on your computer to experience this.

One more thing DMXtra a fully patched Windows 98 system is stable and multitasks rather welll despite your inferences. I'm now curious do you have any finished DarkBASIC programs or are you just a vocal gamesman?

Peace, the anti-Bush.
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DrakeX
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Posted: 10th Jan 2004 21:29
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"a fully patched Windows 98 system is stable and multitasks rather welll"

HAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAAAAAAAAA

i know, i used win98 till rather recently, and it crashes. all the time. especially when doing a lot of multimedia stuff.

"As A RULE I NEVER let M$ push anything onto my OS."

but what you're forgetting is that most people DO. most people don't care about what they can and can't do with their OS, just that they can get to their email, use word, and listen to music. most people do not have the level of computer intelligence that you do and most people think the newest is the best. most people will go out and buy XP simply because it's new. and DMXtra is right -- when longhorn comes out, people will buy it, or a new computer, simply because it's new. most people do not realize the potential of older hardware -- they believe that they must have the newest and the best, when in reality they don't.

most people are frustratingly, impossibly stupid and will never be able to comprehend this.

which is why, after XP being out as long as it has, is now the predominant OS. simply because it's new.

give it a few months or a year. you'll see that 98 percentage drop. wait till longhorn is released, and you'll see it plummet.

have fun with windows 98 BTW.

athlon xp 2000+ | radeon 9500 pro 128mb | 512MB DDR | winXP pro | DBP 5.1b | B3D 1.85 | VC++ 6
predicted DBP P6 release date: March 28, 2004
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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 10th Jan 2004 23:17
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No, its not just because its new, its because its more stable than the previous version, easier to use, more secure etc etc.


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Rob K
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Posted: 11th Jan 2004 00:08 Edited at: 11th Jan 2004 00:10
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Quote: "a fully patched Windows 98 system is stable and multitasks rather welll"


It can probably cope with Word and Notepad being run at the same time, but Windows 98 falls over / slows down / crashes pretty frequently with the programmer's combination of:

Media player, Delphi 7, DarkBASIC Pro, Visual Basic, Word, explorer windows, Mozilla - all open at once

The kernel is FAR more crash-prone in Win98 too. Under XP, in all fairness to Microsoft, its quite rare for an API command to cause a system crash. Under 98, a few memory exception errors in API commands and the whole system pushes up the daisies.

Its good enough to work with, but not really for a development system.

Getting the NT system into the average user's PC was one of the few things I would seriously applaud Microsoft for doing.


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Teh Go0rfmeister
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Posted: 11th Jan 2004 00:17
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yes yes yes yes yes yes and yes, dbp IS worth it- tho i think i preffer the tutorials that were on the DBC disk

www.tinnedhead.tk watch this space for the first ever calculator to show the working out. also look out for our first game- ww.exor-mk1.tk
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