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Newcomers DBPro Corner / Planning to make an American Football game... Need help!

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mAsSdEsTrUcTiOn
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Joined: 5th Jan 2004
Location: New York, USA
Posted: 6th Jan 2004 05:32
Hello everybody,

I want to begin by saying that I think this community is great! I write computer programs for ebook software etc, and obviously the type of programming being done here is MUCH more difficult and I know nothing!

With that said, I'd like to create an American Football game and I need to know what program is going to be best for it, and what I need to know going into this project. Please allow me to throw some of my ideas and questions out there for you so you can see what I am trying to do. It's a lot so please, bear with me! and if anyone has any insight to offer, please feel free to post!


My system (Not great but it's all I got right now):

Dell Dimension 4100 desktop
733 MHZ
20Gig Hardrive
128 mb ram
32x CD-Rom
8x CD-Burner


My ideas:

*The game will be set on a side-view 2D-styled field with a 3D-like feel too it like it is on TV ( I don't know if that makes sense or not?). So I'll need to be able to scale a football field with yards lines. I'll also need the program to recognize down and distance and be able to display the down and distance on screen

*I want to make the Game to be comparable to a PS2 or XBOX Football in that I would like to have 3D modeled players, (but I am reluctantly willing to use sprites if I have no choice)

*I want to add my own original stadium music that plays over the PA system randomly, like in actual stadiums.

*I want to add continous play-by-play voice like a 2-man team in the booth with the possible ability to recognize and recall recorded player names that cue up when a player makes a play.

*If the 2-man play-by-play is not possible, I'd like to have more a more simplified play-by-play with a PA announcers calling the action

*I'd like to have a continuous crowd-noise track that can be programmed so that the crowd reacts accordingly to the action on the field

*I want to be able to have user-adjustable camera angles so the user can customize his own view

*I want the game to be fast-paced, not unrealistically fast-paced, but fast-paced.

*I want to be able to have up to 32 teams in the game

*I want to be able to have a full 16-game regular season league schedule with a full playoff and a Championship game at the end

*I want to be able to customize logos, team colors, and team jerseys

*I want to be able to use actual FMV footage for my intro and also in certain spots in the game to be determined later.

*I want to be able to import the logos in .jpg or other formats and place them into the game where needed (on helmets, on the field, etc.)

*I want to be able to have full rosters with first and last names, numbers and physical stats (Height, weight) AND ability attributes (Speed, Intelligence, etc.) and I want to make those attributes affect the way each player looks and performs in the game.

*I want to be able to give the user the ability to edit names, numbers, physical stats, and even create their own teams.


My Questions:

1. I am a beginner in game programming, but I consider myself to be pretty good at learning things rather quickly. What program is going to give me the best tools to be able to execute the ideas of this project?

2. Are there any programs or add-ons that have 3-D modeled Football players that I can edit?
BearCDPOLD
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Joined: 16th Oct 2003
Location: AZ,USA
Posted: 6th Jan 2004 07:28
hi mAsSdEsTrUcTiOn ,
It's great to see how you've thought this out so thoroughly, most guys show up here saying stuff like "I want to make a <insert genre here> game, can anybody help me?". As far as your questions go, DarkBASIC Classic and Pro both support 2d and 3d. Classic is more complete and solid and for the most part bug-free, but Pro has a lot more features, a better gui & debugger but is still being updated to fix some bugs.

Oddly enough the model packages offered by The Game Creators Ltd. do not contain any sports models. Some good modelling programs to try are:
Milkshape3d
gmax (if you can find a way to export)
gameSpace (very powerful, but cheaper than most)
3d Studio Max (the $3000 grandaddy of all modellers)
Anim8or

Pretty much, if you think up the algorithms, pretty much all the things you mentioned you wanted to incorporate are possible.

good luck!
juvy

Juvenile Industries
Current Project: The First Room (FPS)
Soon to come:An rts, and a snowball fight game
Bishop
21
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Joined: 18th Dec 2002
Location: In my favorite chair...
Posted: 6th Jan 2004 07:28
dude...dude....dude....hold it....a begginer? a team of proffesional programmers would have a hard time doing what you want....i would say:

start with pong

good luck,
Bishop

"When you were born, you cried and the world rejoiced. Live so when you die, the world cries and you rejoice."
mAsSdEsTrUcTiOn
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Location: New York, USA
Posted: 6th Jan 2004 15:26
LOL! I hear ya Bishop. I completely appreciate your concern there too. I realize that it's possible I could be getting in way over my head, but I've done some pretty impossible things in my lifetime and I really feel confident in my ability to learn quickly. Plus, I'm fully prepared to work on this for the next two years if needed. Besides that, I'm guessing if I can't use 3D models then using sprites would make this whole thing much easier.

The other thing that I think will help me is my background in the music business. I know the book end-to-end on recording, mastering and application (plus the bunch of equipment I have does'nt hurt either) so I should be able to get the soundtracks and such together correctly. I also have all the elements that I am going to need already gathered together so I think my biggest challenge will the programming itself, but hey that's what this great community is for!!!

Also, I'd like to thank Juvenile for both the information and the encouragement. This is gonna be fun!
Bishop
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Location: In my favorite chair...
Posted: 7th Jan 2004 01:10
not to damper your pazzazz, but i think it just might be alot harder than you think....but i sure do like your attitude!

Good luck on the project,
Bishop

"When you were born, you cried and the world rejoiced. Live so when you die, the world cries and you rejoice."
heartbone
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Posted: 7th Jan 2004 01:22 Edited at: 7th Jan 2004 01:34
You can do this. You'll need a faster system. You'll definitely have to go 3D for speed. You'll need to have reduced polygon simplified player objects. You'll need to start coding with simple objects like blocks with numbers on them, if you intend to support all 22 players and the many referees, then upgrade the graphics. Retain the simple graphics an available display option, so end users with systems like yours can play too.

DarkBASIC is ideal for developing games such as this. There is no reason why you could not come up with a program as nice as a console version except for the PC single controller hassle. I plan to have the players swap the joystick (defense) and mouse (offense). That's right, sometime in the future I also intend to do a 2 player football game, so I'll be tracking this one.

So to answer both your questions, all that you need for now is a decent paint program for your object textures and DarkBASIC. Don't worry about the detailed object visuals and model manipulations needed for the interactions which will be necessary to bring the sim up to console level, until you get the high level stuff that you described coded. Then you'll have a good idea how much "horsepower" the engine has left for the eye candy.

Peace, the anti-Bush.
mAsSdEsTrUcTiOn
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Posted: 7th Jan 2004 03:29 Edited at: 7th Jan 2004 03:32
To Bishop: I appreciate brutal honesty. I'm the same way myself and I respect others who approach life that way. What I wanted to get out of this post were 2 things essentially: 1. People who would cut my "bright-eyes" down a notch or two and 2. People who would keep my bright-eyed thoughts leveled while telling me exactly what I'll need to do. So far, everybody has come through brilliantly and I thank you guys for it!

I should probably point out that the project is for a useful purpose that has to do with the development and future development of football games. You see, I belonged to a beta test/review group for a major sports game franchise. I supplied this franchise with a lot of ideas that made their game fly, but some of my ideas were disregarded because people said I was "crazy" and that they could'nt be done and executed well. But I feel that they are wrong and the only way I can show them is to make it myself because nobody else is daring to touch it. I think football video games are pretty good right now, but they can be better, I have some next level ideas that can be done in this generation they've just been overlooked. I want to make them seen!

What I want to say about the ideas in my project is that I'm not necessarily going for having the most insanely graphical game at the onset, I'm more interested in implementing the ideas themselves, making sure they will work, and then building from there.

To heartbone: I think you've already figured out how I plan to do this thing, because your response about focusing on the ideas and then working up to worrying about the graphics is exactly my plan!

I expect this project to be difficult. If it were easy I probably would'nt even bother with it.
John H
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Posted: 7th Jan 2004 03:53
Footballs more then just playing, you have to think of EVERY aspect. Play routes, animation conversions, when players commit penalties. Yet alone stats for all those players!

The three things that hit me are

AI
Playroutes
Animation Blending

RPGamer


We need help! Email us! join@eternaldestinyonline.com
JRZ2K4
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Location: BRICK CITY
Posted: 7th Jan 2004 05:03
yeah football games are alot different from the ones back in the day

if you plan on doing this alone its going to be real hard
thats if you are tring to reach madden espn type quality

the sheer number of animations and plays is alot let alone everything else
thats if you want game to compete with console games
i mean it would even be hard making old school genesis madden type game

but i feel where your comming from i have mny ideas on games im jsut not going to start out with the big ones jsut yet
have to learn to add and subtract before i hit geometry and algebra

but good luck and i wish you the best
i want you to make the best football game ever
ill be the first to buy it from you
mAsSdEsTrUcTiOn
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Posted: 7th Jan 2004 08:55 Edited at: 7th Jan 2004 09:00
Thanks JRZ2K4, that was very encouraging! Nobody could ever accuse you guys of being gloomy, that's for sure!

I'm intrigued by the challenge and I can't wait to get my new software!

RPGamer made an excellent point about AI, plays and transition animations. I plan to keep that simple. After seeing first-hand what type of work went into ESPN NFL Football (a football game that sports the best AI, and animation of any football title to date) I am certainly not crazy enough to think that I could compete directly with that.

Now on that plane, I just remembered... Collision detection is another big aspect of a Football game. It's gotta be precise so I can see myself spending quite a bit of energy on that.

So far, the most important things to consider are:

*Ai
*Animation and transition of animation
*Play-calling interface
*Collision detection
*Having the right program to do it all (Heartbone recommended DarkBasic)
*Finding a good 3D modeler to mix my 2D/3D elements (Juvenile recommended a ton of good ones)
*Amount of time to put into it (I'm planning for 2 years)
*Difficulty (hey, I expect it to be hard)

Things that REALLY concern me:

*Penalties- RPGamer brought it up and I'm glad he did. I know that part of it is going to be a pain. But I've been pondering an idea to make it more siimple to get into the game. What I'm thinking of is to only include contact penalties, and even use the contact treatment in the passing game. What I am going to be trying to figure out is how to program a difference between intentional contact and accidental contact in the passing game... That's going to be hell.

*Stats- Another great one brought up by RGgamer. I've only thought about this mildly because I was thinking so much about the implementation of my core ideas, but hey a football game has to have stats. I figure that I'm going to have to create a system that calculates stats by position and I can already see that I am traveling down a calculus corridor, lol.

*Injuries- I'll have to create a timetable and make a nice animation sequence for when the injury happens. I hate injuries, but they're part of the game.

*Weather conditions- I have a ton of plans to make weather more atmospheric than it is in football games right now but I do see some trouble here too.

*Lighting- I want stadium lighting to be visible in this game. I plan to make full use of it. I'm hoping that DarkBasic has the right tools to make that come alive

*Sound- Recording, Mastering and application is a large part of my background so I'm not even worried about CREATING it, I'm just concerned with making it all seam together and cue up at the right times.

*Controller support- This just sounds tough. I'm guessing DarkBasic must have a setting for this? I don't plan to use a ton of buttons. This game is going to be about grinding it out, the way football should be played.
mAsSdEsTrUcTiOn
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Posted: 7th Jan 2004 17:59
You know, after reading the feature list of both DB and DBpro, it seems that DBpro has more of the type of tools I'm going to need to pull this project off. The dilemma I'm thinking about is... Don't I have to know DB before I jump into DBpro?

DBpro has:

*Multiple camera views- Gonna need that for the user interface
*Bump mapping- Gonna need that for more realistic graphics
*Real time shadows- Gonna need that for graphics on-field
*Lights- Gonna need that to take of the way I want to use the stadium lighting
*Polygon Collision detection- The need for this is pretty obvious...
*Particle system- Gonna need this for weather conditions
*DVD video playback- I'm guessing I can use this for the FMV scenes I was talking about?
*Clone objects- That's gonna make this whole process less tedious

I'm ready to buy, and it looks like DBpro has everything that I need, the problem as mentioned above is that I haven't even used DB yet so jumping into DBpro may not be a good idea...?

Dilemma, guys.... Dilemma...
demons breath
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Posted: 7th Jan 2004 22:46 Edited at: 7th Jan 2004 22:47
Music idea - not sure if it will work:


Am I the only one here who's really confused?
John H
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Posted: 7th Jan 2004 22:50
Quote: "*Injuries- I'll have to create a timetable and make a nice animation sequence for when the injury happens. I hate injuries, but they're part of the game."


Might not want to do it on a time table Might want to use angles of hits and what not, or else the people who play the game will be like "Oh jeeze, he always gets injured around now!" Lol People dont have 'timers' in real life for injuries do they

RPGamer


We need help! Email us! join@eternaldestinyonline.com
mAsSdEsTrUcTiOn
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Posted: 7th Jan 2004 23:31
LOL!

What I meant by "timetable" is the amount of time the injury would keep players out of the lineup.

So what do you guys think about my dilemma? Should I get DB or DBpro?

DBpro has EVERYTHING I need, DB has only a few things. BUT, I've never even used DB...
diablo fan
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Posted: 8th Jan 2004 03:31
WAIT A MIN HERE..... i have a different thought then the rest of you .

" I write computer programs for ebook software etc, and obviously the type of programming being done here is MUCH more difficult "

this language seems so easy and fun to learn while my c++ book is putting me to sleep. Dont let these guys get you down. I wanted to make a game with the same time line two years but after 7 days with the demo version of db i had a proto-type working. yes i used alot of cutting pasting and modifing snippets. and i dont understand all of my own code yet but thats ok. It will be easier than you projecting bro.

me
Whisper Wind
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Posted: 8th Jan 2004 07:14
You should definately get DBPro. DBPro is not the 'expansion' for DB, but rather DB but with more commands and a faster engine. It will take you roughly the amount of time to learn DB as it will DBPro.
mAsSdEsTrUcTiOn
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Posted: 8th Jan 2004 07:26 Edited at: 8th Jan 2004 07:29
Thanks Diablo!

I've decided to just go ahead and get DBpro. It has exactly everything I need and I figure since I'm giving myself a reasonable amount of time to do this project I should be able to learn well enough to be effective.

Thanks for all of your help guys, I truly appreciate it and I plan to be asking MANY questions in the future!
BearCDPOLD
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Posted: 9th Jan 2004 06:50
Hey mAsSdEsTrUcTiOn ,
I noticed your dillemma on collisions and thought I could offer some more resources. Nuclearglory.com has the best dlls for collision detection. I don't know if they have the specificities that you need, but it only costs $15 and has the smoothest collisions for the DB/Blitz market.

Juvenile Industries
Current Project: The First Room (FPS)
Soon to come:An rts, and a snowball fight game
walaber
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Posted: 9th Jan 2004 09:35
just a note, you probably shouldn't planning on using ALL of those features you mentioned (esp. realtime shadows, patricles) because you would need a computer faster than Jesus to actually play the game. of course there are workarounds you can do to imitate most of those features... but don't think you can just 'turn on' shadows, multiple lights, particles, bump mapping, etc. and your game will look great. because it will run at about 1 frame/minute on the average computer.

not to discourage you, just want to make sure you know that it's much more complicated than that even with the features of DBPro.



Go Go Gadget DBPRO!
mAsSdEsTrUcTiOn
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Posted: 10th Jan 2004 21:33 Edited at: 10th Jan 2004 21:38
To Juvenile: Thanks Juvenile! $15 is a steal! I'm gonna check that out!

To Walaber: just a note, you probably shouldn't planning on using ALL of those features you mentioned (esp. realtime shadows, patricles) because you would need a computer faster than Jesus to actually play the game. of course there are workarounds you can do to imitate most of those features... but don't think you can just 'turn on' shadows, multiple lights, particles, bump mapping, etc. and your game will look great. because it will run at about 1 frame/minute on the average computer.

not to discourage you, just want to make sure you know that it's much more complicated than that even with the features of DBPro.


That's an excellent point walaber. I thought about it some possible issues that may occur in celebration scenes where weather would aslo be present and I figured that I would have to find a way to tone that down. I'm thinking that if I can program the weather to happen randomly, I can use sprites as a substitution for using some of the more power draining effects.

Right now, after someone gives me a tip or an idea I go and add it to the game storyboard I have here in my home office. So far, the ideas are all coming together and know that I know the things I want to do are indeed possible, I feel even better going in.


OKAY, CHECK OUT SOME OF THE TEXT TO MY STORYBOARD

both 2D and 3D player models will be experimented with. The reasoning behind this is to find out which type will work best for my project when I can see an actual visual of it on-screen.

1. This game will resemble the legendary and sometimes fabled Tecmo Bowl series. I'll be using the marker system for passing, punting and kicking. The contact penalties are going to be hard to do in the passing game using a marker system, but the challenge is still welcome.

2. During the play, I'm going to be playing various musical selections from NFL Films Super Bowl editions. I've already picked out the exact selections that will be in the game and they are detailed on my storyboard as to when and how they will play and to what capacity.

3. The two man booth team is out. The Stadium PA Announcer stays in. It's going to work a lot better for the way this game is going to be. The PA announcer will announce down and distance, Touchdowns, Fumbles, Interceptions, Flags on plays, timeouts, type of play called by team and yards gained. I'm going to have to work harder on figuring out how to program it to announce the players name after the play is made as well...

4. Camera angles are out. This type of game makes camera changes at odds with the theme of the game. However, I am pondering the possibility of creating something called "cinema mode" where the end user can play the entire game in a cut-scene-like fashion. To produce a good result with this though, I will need to make a little indicator system and tinkerwith the collision a lot once it's complete. Should be fun though.

5. FMV footage will still be in for at least the game intro and other critical parts of the game.

6. In-game cutscenes will be added to capture the passion of the game. Dives over the goaline will cut to a cinematic sequence. Big throws where the Quarterback launches a deep pass downfield will be captured in a cinematic sequence. So will touchdowns of all kinds, interceptions and sacks.

7. Attributes will stay in the game, but speed, intelligence and weight will trump height as a major gameplay factor.

8. Create-a-team function will stay in the game.

9. Create-a-player will also be in the game, and so will editing

10. The game will rival the current generation in the sense that it will have many of the features found in these games, except it's approach will be more passionate and intuitve to the struggle that takes place in the course of a real Pro Football game. Therefore, unlike the last Tecmo version for the playstation 1 (which was nothing like Tecmo Bowl at all) this game will feature graphics that duplicated from real piece materials that make up real football fields. I don't want to give away exactly how I am going to do it, but all I can say is that not only can it be done, but it has been done before, but not in football games! This should be a first.

11. The game will be fast-paced just like the old Tecmo Bowls and easy to play with a simple, straight-forward interface. Quick playing calling, quick snaps, etc.

12. The ability to break tackles will be placed on the end-user rapidly pressing the required buttons.

13. Full regular season is in, as well as playoffs and a Championship.

14. Player trading will be in with the ability to turn it on or off. And I'll be exploring the possibility of a franchise mode as well.

If you're from America and know anything about the history of Football video games, then the Tecmo Bowl series is something that needs no explanation. The things that will be added in my game will encompass what every Tecmo Bowl and NFL Films SB edition fan has always wanted but never got.


THOUGHTS ON THE FIELD VIEW

I want the field to appear on a Three-Dimensional level, however, I'm not 100% sure that this approach is going to work best so I'll be experimenting with it in conjunction with the player models. Still, it WOULD appear more like it does on TV with this approach.

Take a look at this picture at the Tecmo Bowl fansite =========> http://www.knobbe.org

The picture there is of Tecmo Super Bowl for the 8-Bit Nintendo (NES). Instead of using that view I want my view to have a 3D slant view.

The field view will be going from sideline to sideline, 3D-styled with the ability to see all of the action with great visibility just like the old tecmo bowl games that were in all 2-D.

As you can see, I am attempting to maximize my results by focusing on the game play and its atmosphere and shying away from using a ton of unnecessary features that add nothing to the game.

I'll share more parts to my storyboard as time goes on!

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