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Geek Culture / Dark Basic Bashing ?

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JNice013
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Posted: 21st Jan 2004 04:21
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http://www.whahay.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=45011

Everyone in those forums are thrashing DBC and DBP. They are saying that it is a baby development tool and things made in DBC or DBP can not amount to anything and that obviously is wrong. Take a look.

"The Infamous J Nice"
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MikeS
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Posted: 21st Jan 2004 04:25
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These are obviously the people who want to make Halo2 in a matter of days. I bet only 1/3 of those people have actually used DB.

I don't think it's too big of a deal though. For me, DBP is my #1 language right now.



A book? I hate book. Book is stupid.
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indi
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Posted: 21st Jan 2004 04:37
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I will eventually move to C++ but for now I find it rewarding to have a higher level language that allows me to rapidly build concepts and games without pouring hours of time down the gurgler to do the same thing in about 5 seconds.
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Ian T
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Posted: 21st Jan 2004 04:46
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Bunch of kids who don't know what they're talking about. Not a single argument with a scrap of meaning behind it on the whole page .

--Mouse: Famous (Avatarless) Fighting Furball

I am the chainsaw paladin.
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Dave J
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Posted: 21st Jan 2004 04:47
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Oh well.


"Computers are useless they can only give you answers."
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DrakeX
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Posted: 21st Jan 2004 04:50
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"It's kind of complicated yes"

OMG someone who says DB is complicated is, quite obviously, an IDIOT.

DB is for simple minded people. like me

athlon xp 2000+ | radeon 9500 pro 128mb | 512MB DDR | winXP pro | DBP 5.1b | B3D 1.85 | VC++ 6
predicted DBP P6 release date: March 28, 2004
DBP has made me bitter.
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UnderLord
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Posted: 21st Jan 2004 05:18
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Im gonna post there just to see what they say to me...morons all of em.
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james1980
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Posted: 21st Jan 2004 05:19 Edited at: 21st Jan 2004 05:22
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if dark basic is hard for these people there not going to learn
one thing in c#/c++. damn rookies!!!!!

correct me if i'm wrong.
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FoxBlitzz
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Posted: 21st Jan 2004 05:23
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Lol, all of those people there are stupid. DarkBasic Pro IS the only tool that is easy and yet can make a really detailed game WITH Direct X 9 and pixel/vertex shaders. I doubt something like Visual Basic would have a chance at this.

HP Pavilion | Intel Pentium 4 CPU 2.40 GHz
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UnderLord
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Posted: 21st Jan 2004 05:44
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Eh with enough programming knowlege you can make anything happen =P even in VB! haha never tried VB took a long look at one of its books though seemed a little hard but nothing i coundnt handal.

I just posted on that forum too. Took a nice long post i did.

Im sure half of em are gonna flame me but thats ok i can speak from experience DBC and DBP are both worth learning....and a hell of alot easyer then C++ but i seemed prone to C++ for some odd reason i learned at a fast rate with it. studied mostly object scripting.

But anyhow DBC and DBP still are number 1 on my list of good game design programs.
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HZence
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Posted: 21st Jan 2004 05:49
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Morons.


Team EOD :: Programmer/Storyboard Assistant
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 21st Jan 2004 06:45
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i would say Dark Basic Software now The Game Creators, history speaks for itself really.


P4-M 1.3Ghz | 512mb DDR PC1800 | GeForce FX 5600 Go! 53.03 | DirectX9.0b SDK | C-Media 8738/C3DX | Windows XP 2004
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KNau
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Posted: 21st Jan 2004 07:12
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Before even acknowledging someone giving programming language or game development advice simply ask them:

1) What game development companies have they worked for and for how long?
2) What games have they personally finished and published?

If they are unable to provide a credible answer to either then they flat out do not know what they are talking about. We went through that in the old BB vs. DB days when a whole bunch of people (with no experience) jumped ship and started slagging everyone else for not doing the same. I love those people who claim "I have experience in 14 languages" - unless you have a completed, distributed project then you have no experience.

Having said that, I will and have freely admitted t0 DB Classic's many, many limitations.
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Neophyte
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Posted: 21st Jan 2004 14:03
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@CMC 101

"I learned How to make games in C++!! I am going to post never to learn C/C++ because it will take years for them to leanr to cake a cube programming with Direct3D from Microsofts DX 9.1 SDK "

Huh?
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John H
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Posted: 21st Jan 2004 14:05
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No idea


We need help! Email us! join@eternaldestinyonline.com
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Benjamin
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Posted: 21st Jan 2004 14:32
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You want to make an edible cube?

Benjamin R Wharton
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Van B
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Posted: 21st Jan 2004 14:40
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LOL! - did you guys check out the cool games these guys make, I mean just from the signature, look at the quality of this:



These hairy-back-c++ wannabe's have been told at a young age that C was the bees knees by a science teacher or IT teacher, and the monkeys have only gone and listened to him!. I mean their ideas about Basic date back to the early 80's, when basic really was basic, a lot of the time making do with character set graphics or plain text. Basic is no longer a solid standard, each variation of basic is a language in it's own right - the basic command set is really small, it's the language specific commands that make the language.

Personally, I've got more projects finished since I started with DB than I ever did with any other system or language (except maybe VBA because that's my job) - I wonder how long it would have taken me to do the same projects in C++... I'd probably still be working on VanTRANS.

At the end of the day though, they're clearly a bunch of nauseating single-minded geeks with little talent and even less interpersonal skills. I'm planning on learning a bit of C++ for .DLL's that I need, but I'm not planning on becomming part of a C++ forum, I'd end up throttling someone.


Van-B


The nature of Monkey was irrepressible!.
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Kevin Picone
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Posted: 21st Jan 2004 14:58 Edited at: 21st Jan 2004 15:03
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The irony is, the lower the level you write code in, you end up rolling your own abstraction layers on top of it anyway.

Kevin Picone
Play Basic - Visible Worlds - Kyruss II
[url]www.underwaredesign.com[/url]
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UnderLord
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Posted: 21st Jan 2004 17:06
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AH yes some guy said DBP was a limited tool so i just copyed what was on the back of the box all the features and stuff that should get him thinking...he'll come back with some stuiped respones i know it. but thats besides the point im defending the only real tool i'v learned to use besides HTML editors but then again i gotta get going on my site....
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Van B
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Posted: 21st Jan 2004 18:12
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I find it a bit arrogant when people go on about how C++ is the commercial giant out of all the hobbyist languages. In reality, most commercial C++ games are engine/script based, meaning they're not coded from scratch, far from it. In terms of small scale projects, like something that you'd hope might earn you over £2000 a year in registrations - DBPro is a wise choice. Blitz is outdated, C++ takes too long, all the other engines are a bit limited really, and VB should not be considered a game creation language IMO. I mean considering how many games use the Quake engine, or the Renderware engine, it's easy to see why game designers don't need to be too bright, and also why ID are so freakin wealthy. Ever since Duke Nukem 3D showed the depth of gameplay changes possible through scripting, it's been an industry on it's own.

We see people come up with astounding stuff in DBPro in really short periods of time - some people need to get into the habit of finishing a project before starting another, but the speed at which you can test ideas and impliment them is not too common in other languages. I'm waiting on the inevitible 'Well prove what DBPro can do' thread.


Van-B


The nature of Monkey was irrepressible!.
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Neophyte
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Posted: 21st Jan 2004 18:15
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Good points VanB but, FYI, Renderware is a set of libraries not a game engine.
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 21st Jan 2004 19:55
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debateable Neo ... i mean it sits over OpenGL and DirectX making them easier to access the graphics; i guess you could call it a go between like DarkBASIC Pro is, only in C Lib form.


P4-M 1.3Ghz | 512mb DDR PC1800 | GeForce FX 5600 Go! 53.03 | DirectX9.0b SDK | C-Media 8738/C3DX | Windows XP 2004
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Penfold
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Posted: 21st Jan 2004 19:59
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anybody posted a link to this post in there post.. would be quite amusing... to see the reaction./..

'Ooh 'eck chief'...'crumbs'
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UnderLord
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Posted: 21st Jan 2004 20:24
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I just did =P

let the flaming begin....
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UnderLord
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Posted: 21st Jan 2004 20:26
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Quote: "They ARE meant for an amateur game making, no more, no less."


Thats inttresting someone said that in the other GW forums....who wants to correct him?
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ReD_eYe
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Posted: 21st Jan 2004 22:26
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nope, go ahead underlord, you can have ago


GO TO THE ETERNAL DESTINY FORUMS!!! http://forums.eternaldestinyonline.com
Do it now!!!
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Chris K
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Posted: 21st Jan 2004 22:58
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Post a link to:

Room War
Roswell Racer
Operation Invasion Evasion

Then ask them to post links for their games. We'll see.

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FoxBlitzz
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Posted: 21st Jan 2004 23:11 Edited at: 21st Jan 2004 23:11
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And post some of the graphical demos too! Like the Motion Blur demo and The Lab. I've also come up with one more question:

- Why do you think C++ is better? It takes hundreds of lines just to get a single 3D object onto the screen.

HP Pavilion | Intel Pentium 4 CPU 2.40 GHz
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Rob K
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Posted: 22nd Jan 2004 16:06
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Using C++ plus the DirectX SDK, you have extremely low-level control over the engine. For some developers this is very important.

C++ also allows a far more modern approach to programming - which is suited to larger projects. However when the largest DBPro games never usually total more than 10-20K lines, this isn't a problem - however I wouldn't like to produce a 300K lines game in it.

Development studios normally write an engine which is then used in all of their games, the equivilent of the DB engine but written in C++.


BlueGUI Plugin:http://blue.robert-knight.net / BlueIDE http://blueide.sf.net-Free Replacement editor for DBPro
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Damokles
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Posted: 22nd Jan 2004 16:20
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When I read this, I have to think about a friend, who wants to create a game with a whole new concept.
He wanted to make the whole 2D part and texturing model. I suggested DB for the language, but he also asked elsewhere and these people told BASIC was not good for 3D games, C++ would be much better. I showed some of the best games ever made, but he said BASIC would be too limited for his whole new project. (wonder where he heard that, because what he said was not that difficult for DBC)
Then he searched for somebody who knows a lil C++ and they use a whole engine, where you only have to drag and drop the models to insert them in a game. So his concept is thrown away to follow the engine. I still laugh, when I think he said BASIC had too much limits, and now using a that and complaining it's not the way he wants it to be.

"Begin at the beginning, and go on till you come to the end: then stop." - Lewis Carroll
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Van B
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Posted: 22nd Jan 2004 17:19
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I wonder if these people have ever actually completed anything...

Professional programmers have no qualms about using simpler languages to make tools or test ideas - DBPro is actually fitting that role at that level right now. I wonder if they'd believe that DBPro is being used by people in the development of X-Box games, quick idea testing, quick tool creation, there's nothing quick about developing in C++. My first time messing around in C++ yesterday, managed to change an openGl poly render demo (you know the one from Dev), to having 2 polys moving on all axis and changing colour. I reckon messing around with it is the only way to learn it - I refuse to buy a book. book is stupid.


Van-B


The nature of Monkey was irrepressible!.
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lagmaster
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Posted: 22nd Jan 2004 18:01
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the forum looks like a bunch of wannabe's that cant grasp a language.

just flaming anything in sight

lagmasteruk - http://www.lagmaster.net is alive! http://www.dbforums.co.uk/ - another db forum!

Dark Snippet Pro V9.2 is out!!
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Neophyte
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Posted: 22nd Jan 2004 18:39
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@Raven

I'm just going on what I heard on the flipcode forums by a guy from Renderware. That was a long time ago though.
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UnderLord
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Posted: 22nd Jan 2004 19:08
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@ chris give me the links to those demo's and i'll post em. Then i'll ask for there demos and mor completed games.
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Jeku
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Posted: 22nd Jan 2004 19:44
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Quote: "Professional programmers have no qualms about using simpler languages to make tools or test ideas"


This can't be more true. The DirectX SDK itself is a simpler way to quickly access the computer's hardware than just plain C++.

Somebody should tell them that C++ is also, in itself, a simpler way of making games than writing in assembly language. And even then, assembly language is a simpler way of writing machine code.

If somebody sees the next kickass game, do they then say, "Hmmm, if this wasn't made with C++, then I refuse to play it"? No, most people don't care. Even Half-Life was based on another engine, which was based on OpenGL, which is based on C++, etc. etc. etc.

DarkBasic is just another layer above DirectX, am I right? Myself, I have studied DirectX using C++ for 7 years, and I still prefer it to just doing graphics manipulation in straight C++. To each his own.

http://www.automatongames.com/
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Jeku
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Posted: 22nd Jan 2004 19:47
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One more note, I can't emphasize enough about how important the final product is. If we, the DBP developers, make nothing more than glamorous demos, than we have no choice but to be ridiculed by the C++ crowd.

We need a real commercial game on the shelves, because pretty much *ALL* the games out there, PC and console, were made with languages like C/C++. But really, the final result is all that matters. If it's cool and fun, who gives a lick.

http://www.automatongames.com/
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UnderLord
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Posted: 22nd Jan 2004 20:00
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Jeku why don't you get a team of experienced coders/deign artist ect...and mkae that game that will make it to commercial.

And im done with those little bas-terds (hehehe) im sick of there whining they don't even know what there talkin bout i have more experience coding in HTML then any of em im sure. So i just posted my last post which was noobish of me but it was itching at me like nothin. They don't know the diffrence between there ass and a girls puss....so im just leaving them alone if they wanna learn let them learn but untill then they will just flame more.

It was fun defending DBP weeeee....those guys had no idea what there talkin bout stuiped people now adays.
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MikeS
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Posted: 22nd Jan 2004 22:38
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Have to say DBP is at a nice level. It's not to hard to get into, yet it gives you great results.

In my opinion, a good programming language is only as good as it's programmer. If the language limits you, then the programmer is only going to be that good.(Hence, the drag and drop apps.)If the language let's you constantly improve(Something like DBP,C++,etc.), then it's a good programming language for me.

Personally thinking of moving towards application development with Visual Basics. Might give games a try with C++, but I won't seriously take this into consideration until I really have some free time.

@Van B



A book? I hate book. Book is stupid.
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james1980
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Posted: 23rd Jan 2004 09:12
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I think those people have trouble with 3d gamemaker.
or playing pong.
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UnderLord
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Posted: 23rd Jan 2004 19:57
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nah they have trouble with RPGMaker 95 & 2000 can't figgure out how to make a tile appear
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Digital Awakening
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Posted: 24th Jan 2004 01:23
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You can always direct them to my site and let them take a look at TML. It's a published DBP game avalible on CD. And ask them how many of their games are avalible on CD

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Jeku
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Posted: 24th Jan 2004 01:48
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UnderLord - I know nobody else in my area that likes making games, and there's no way I'm going to post here in the Team Request forum. It's almost impossible to work cooperatively over MSN.

Another thing, I can't make my own commercial game while I work in the games industry for a real games company, I believe it's against my contract.

- JeKu

Ancient Chinese proverb: Man who runs behind car gets exhausted.

http://www.automatongames.com/
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MikeS
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Posted: 24th Jan 2004 02:37
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If I understand correctly from a book I read. Everything you make belongs to the company.

You may keep the media on 2 or 3 conditions.

a.) You had made/been working on the project prior to joining the company.
b.) It's a totally different genre, and you've negotiated with your company.(EA am I correct? )
c.) You lead your own project.

Well that's my understanding of it at least.

:isclaimer::
I've never worked in the games industry and my knowledge is from books and articles. This post may not be 100% credible so don't quote me.



A book? I hate book. Book is stupid.
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UnderLord
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Posted: 24th Jan 2004 20:49
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Ohh ok ic
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QuothTheRaven
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Posted: 24th Jan 2004 21:03 Edited at: 24th Jan 2004 21:24
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I just signed up...gonna give them a (non flame) piece of my mind.

edit: and delivered.

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Jeku
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Posted: 24th Jan 2004 22:09
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@yellow - Yeah, I signed a form before I joined the company that listed previous works that have been released. After that, I believe I just have to check with my boss before I want to sell anything. If I'm not using the company's computers, and I make a free game, I hope they don't technically own title to that, too Yeah, it's EA, but I'm sure it's the same at any game company.

Ancient Chinese proverb: Man who runs behind car gets exhausted.

http://www.automatongames.com/
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Represent
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Posted: 24th Jan 2004 22:16
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Forgetaboutit. Those peeps don't even know DarkBASIC. It is easier and better than anything I have used (other than C++).
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MikeS
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Posted: 24th Jan 2004 22:29
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"How to Get a Job making Video Games" By Earnest Adams is a good read for anyone who wants to learn about what JeKu and I are talking about.

I don't really think they'd mind if you made your own commercial games.

a.) It won't be something for them to compete with.
b.) The ideas weren't from one of their previous/coming games.(This is probebly the most important one)
c.) You use your own tools.(Like you mentioned)
d.) You talk it over with them.

I recommend anyone serious about getting into the game industy, such as myself, the above book.



A book? I hate book. Book is stupid.
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QuothTheRaven
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Posted: 24th Jan 2004 22:36
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Quote: ""How to Get a Job making Video Games" By Earnest Adams is a good read"


I agree, excellent book

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