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Geek Culture / GeForce FX delayed again? + 3D info

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Digital Awakening
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Posted: 25th Nov 2002 11:53
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For those who doen't know GFFX is nVidias upcomming GPU that will replace GF4, also known as NV30. It was showed at Comedex not long ago and showed som extreme power, much higher then ATI's Radeon 9700Pro. It was said then that the cards was planned to ship Q1 2003. But acording to speculations it will be delayed to Q2. Budget versions will be out later then the more powerful ones, if there will be any budget FX cards. This gives ATI more time to counter nVidia in this GPU war.

"As expected, NVDIA has chosen not to use low-k dielectric on the NV-30, a decision which involves some performance compromises but also lowers the risk of any manufacturing miscues. With the part now qualified, waiting on system integrators to finish boards is the issue – that clearly is not going to happen until the April quarter."

GFFX won't support displacement maps, one of the biggest news in DX9. Though they support pixel and vertex shaders higher then 2.0(DX9) they may not be able to call their GPUs DX9 compatible. This are based on n-patches, the same technology as Truform uses. nVidia never implemented anything similar to ATI's Truform.

Truform multiplies the amount of polygon data sent from the computer increasing the amount of polygones extremly while beeing faster then using highpoly models.
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Digital Awakening
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Posted: 25th Nov 2002 12:34
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No modify? That sux...

Anyway here's a link about the displacement mapping:
http://www.reactorcritical.com/cgi-bin/news.cgi?templ=single.http&id=1270

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Digital Awakening
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Posted: 25th Nov 2002 13:09
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An interesting article about GFFX:
http://www.tech-report.com/etc/2002q4/geforce-fx/index.x?pg=1

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Kohai of UWDesign
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Posted: 25th Nov 2002 13:15
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Uh ? no displacement maps support ???

Bad move from NVidia ...

[Kohai]
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Digital Awakening
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Posted: 25th Nov 2002 13:25
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I just find a rumor that R9900Pro will be out in Februari with 400+ core and 800+ memory. Since R9700pro has more power/Hz then GFFX they should end up about equal or with ATI in the lead.

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Digital Awakening
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Posted: 25th Nov 2002 13:26
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How much truth there is in this rumor is unknown. But it's a safe bet that there will be a more powerful Radon comming out Q1/Q2 2003.

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Digital Awakening
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Posted: 25th Nov 2002 14:36
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Oh, and the rumor also says there might be 2 TMUs (texture unit), if that's the case then nVidia would surly be after again.

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MushroomHead
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Posted: 25th Nov 2002 15:20
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This rumor was started on some japanese site and has become a "hot" topic on all websites ... here's the link for an update I got earlier :-

http://www.megagames.com/news/html/hardware/nv30maybedelayed.shtml

I can't understand all the panic considering nvidia are official sponsors of RGT.

- Rav.
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Digital Awakening
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Posted: 25th Nov 2002 15:33
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A little PR package for the convet isn't what I call an official sponsor. That's some very old news you got there since nVidia themselves have officially said Q1 just before Comdex. Q2 is a technological speculation about compnents that nVidia are waiting for.

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 25th Nov 2002 17:50
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:: looks blanky at his new GeForce FX ::
Not out yet??

Hmm... erm... hmm...
:: shrugs shoulders :: (^_^)
Probably just public release I guess.
gotta say Radeon 9770 wasn't really an outstanding peice of hardware against the Quattro, and they're gonna have to have made some supreme update in there to beat this lil GeForce beauty.

I dunno to me atleast, nothing really stood up against nVidia - since Voodoo was bought not really been a great amount of competition.
ATi doesn't have the same financial backing as nVidia does, especially with thier recent deal with AMD - the next wave of Althon3 processor specifically built to bridge the gaps that the GeForce family has, days are looking dark for Intel, ATi and Videologic.

What i'm wondering is the Microsoft-Intel partnership gonna last when Althon3 finally hits the shelves?
We all know that the long standing relationship in recent years has actually kept Intels head in the game, but with the new power you can gain from an nVidia GPU and AMD CPU ranges getting better and better ... sometime you gotta wonder if Intel should stop bidding for the state of the art processor position.
Ho hum only the next gen of processors will tell i guess.

Anata aru kowagaru no watashi!
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Digital Awakening
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Posted: 25th Nov 2002 18:43
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I just got some more info on that rumor. It's directly from some one who should know that says that test versions should already be manufactured. This is actually R350 (R300 is what we got now). I can see no reason for ATI going out with this info as it would only hurt R300 more. But if it's true then we'll probably hear about it early next year (after xmas shopping). There are also some rumors (from some other source) about R400 comming this summer...

Vegeta:
Well I don't know anything about Quattro but isn't that a profeesional gfx card? Then you better compare it with ATI's Fire GL instead. Most ppl in here don't want those pro cards anyway.

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 25th Nov 2002 19:24
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yeah the Quattro XGL is kinda more of a professional version of the GeForce4 Ti, and probably best suited against the FireGL - but the FireGL isn't exactly an outstanding card and is outperformed by the Radeon 9xxx series in most areas, the onlygood thing about it is the ammount of Ram you can pack onto it and the fact you can have more than one in a machine.
GeForce FX just a single card version beat my SLi Quattro XGL 128DRR2 in Rendering Times by almost 1/3rd of the time... Gotta say ATi's next card has got some serious ground to catch up, but i think the greater DirectX compatibility will give it a good edge

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Digital Awakening
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Posted: 25th Nov 2002 19:28
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Well, the current Fire GL is based on R200 so it's prety old now ,:') Well, we'll just have to wait and see what ATI does next year as they probably won't do anything else this year.

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David T
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Posted: 25th Nov 2002 19:50
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So this is like the GF 5?

I love Star Trek.
Especially the Episodes with Starships in.
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Digital Awakening
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Posted: 25th Nov 2002 22:16
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I found this on a site:
ATI Radeon R350 is expected to be released in Q4. The R350 is expected to be a a minor enhancement to the Radeon 9700's R300 core, manufactured on the same 0.15 micron process. The R350 is being released to counter the release of the NV30 by nVidia.

ATI Radeon RV350 is expected to be released in Q4 on a 0.15 micron process The RV350 is expected to be a a minor enhancement to the Radeon 9500's RV300 core.

The same site also talks about 4000+ AMD CPUs comming this spring ,:') Imagine the power with that...

David:
Yepp, but they changed to FX for 2 resons. First it got technology from 3Dfx that nVidia bought years ago. And because they now think that you can make movie quality in real time (they said that with GF3 too ,:'))

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Puffy
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Posted: 26th Nov 2002 06:49
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it doesnt matter... once you can max out the graphix... all you can do is shrug... or get a better sound system... you dont have a pen*s until your neighbors call the cops...

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 26th Nov 2002 23:55
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Hehee... yup well GeForce FX is amazing and i'm pretty sure that ATi have underestimated the lil beauty.
But the fact of a 2003 Q4 Release date shows that they're more likely adding more changes than they're letting on.

I have to find the article recently published on AMD.com but aparently Althon III is to use a Dual Slot configuration - hopefully the official reports soon will confirm this, but if they're moving back the Slots then what does this mean for the new wave of processors?

I mean it was moved away from for size reasons (althought once you put a fan&heatsink on the things god knows why lol)

gonna be awesome soon thou, so much power even at the low end for us developers to wow you with - how sweet is that gonna be
I mean GeForce4 Mx is actually a budget card now being shipped with new PCs!!

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Puffy
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Posted: 27th Nov 2002 06:22
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O_O I NEED THAT DUAL SLOT... I NEED IT... =\ it will be mine ... oh yes it will be mine *waynes world for ya*...

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Digital Awakening
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Posted: 27th Nov 2002 11:43
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Vegeta:
Q4 2003? No the text I found is about this year. But my guess is Q1 2003.

The MX cards sux, they don't even use DX8. 9000Pro kicks it where it hurs big time and it's also a budget card. I'm interested in 9500Pro myself, looks like the best card for the money out there at the moment.

Dual slot? nVidias nForce2 are said to be able to run well with Barton. nVidia and ATI are working prety close on the motherboards, that's why there are no nForce for P4 yet.

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Puffy
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Posted: 27th Nov 2002 11:53
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hehe i prefer my machine... and upgrades to it.. O_O Thats all that needs to be said...

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Matto
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Posted: 28th Nov 2002 05:41
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this is a couple of months old, but I am suprised none of you have mentioned this beast of burden!!!


http://www.pczone.co.uk/news/news_story.php?id=80593

I,ll see if I can dig any more info up on it, for budget cards you won't get better for a while I should think...

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Matto
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Posted: 28th Nov 2002 05:47
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Ahha seems it's up and running already.. thought it was work in prgress still..

http://www.motherboards.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=14863&

Beware it takes up both the AGP and first PCI Slot with the card and it's exhaust system..

Kind of brings the old meaning back to Cool !!

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Puffy
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Posted: 28th Nov 2002 06:38
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i prefer better quality cards with liquid cooling systems... the extra penny is worth it all the time... =D hehe...

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Digital Awakening
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Posted: 28th Nov 2002 11:51
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Matto:
It's only a GF4 ti4200. Though most in here don't have anything close to it (including me) it's an old card an today 9500Pro is the best card if you look at price/preformace, it even beats a ti4600 by loads as soon as AA and/or AF is used.

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Puffy
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Posted: 28th Nov 2002 11:57
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;P i plan on getting a nice geforce fx... sure it will cost me 1000$ but its work it... =D

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Digital Awakening
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Posted: 28th Nov 2002 17:50
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By the time GFFX comes 9700Pro will probably cost half as much while still beeing 75%-80% as good.

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Matto
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Posted: 29th Nov 2002 04:03
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interesting, so even with a cooler system allowing more power to an older card which puts it's performance up near the ti 4600 at a about half the cost of a 4600 you still wreckon it is not worth while?

I am interested to know your thoughts on this as I need to upgrade soon but most certainly not at the high end.. so far as I can see the nearer I can get to the top performing cards for my money gets my pennies.. I am looking at about £130.00 ish and this card I have been looking at seemed the most promising, but I am always happy to be shown how wrong I am ...

1 probe with cards not Nvidia is they seem to be less well supported, but again I am always open to suggestions

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Digital Awakening
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Posted: 29th Nov 2002 12:06
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9500Pro 124MB costs about the same as a ti4200 but it really kicks ti4600 sometimes even twice as good + it's DX9 compatible ti46000 is only DX8 compatible. However 9500Pro is still hard to find in stores at the moment.

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TheCyborg
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Posted: 29th Nov 2002 12:47
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Is the Radeon 9500Pro better than the 9700Pro?

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Digital Awakening
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Posted: 30th Nov 2002 02:22
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Nope but 9500Pro is enough to kick any nVidia card on the market until GFFX is released. If you want the most powerful card on the market now then 9700Pro is the card for you.

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rapscaLLion
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Posted: 30th Nov 2002 03:06
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I'll wait... by the time GFFX is released, maybe there will be compatition from ATI...

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rapscaLLion
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wow... just watched the actual launch video... the thing's built in 0.15 microns, and has it's own wicked-ass cooling system!!! drool

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Puffy
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Posted: 30th Nov 2002 10:55
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... O_O i will have an 8p opteron computer... liquid cooled... with some nice workstations fx cards... at least 8... all working together... plus 10 gigs of ddr ram... and 1000 gigs of hd space... with 6 dvd burner player cd rom burners... fans... neon lights... a case that goes to the ceiling... O_O a 60 inch plasma screen.... (gets high) ohhh yeh that was good... =P i would love that system... O_O LOVE IT... its my dream... my 50,000 dream....

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Digital Awakening
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Posted: 30th Nov 2002 14:13
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Rap:
According to some sources ATI are planning to ship their R350 early next year. My guess is that they wait for the R300 cards to sell now for Xmas and then before GFFX is released R350 draws the interest away from nVidia again. If ATI can pull this off then bad luck for nVidia.

R400 is planned this summer according to some other sources, based on the same/better technology as GFFX but by then there will be plenty of the components. If ATI can beat GFFX with older components, imagine what they can do with the same...

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Puffy
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=D its all about getting custom cards made by big companys for your homemade computers... 8 processers... remember... you can hook as many of that certain kind of video card to gether... you got the pci slots... you can do it... O_O home made super computer (that doesnt have 10,000 processers and so on)...

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Shadow Robert
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Erm... 9700pro better than the Ti4600 when using FSAA or AF??

Sorry but 9700 series is an all round inferior card, the speed matchs up with a GeForceMx 480 - but as the Mx480 is actually almost 1/3 the price, why the heck would you want the 9700 ... Ahh yes because of the DirectX 9 compatibility, the DirectX which Micrsoft themselves have delayed AGAIN and rather than 8.x actually deals with media more.

I'd suggest if you have a friend who uses it, you checkout what is actually in it - because DirectX9 increases no speed and has very little in the way of updates over 8.1 graphically.
Also those update it does have for Graphics are being released as part of DirectX 8.2 because the core code is essentially the same it is just a minor lib addon.

That aside, 9700 is as most ATi cards a DirectX native - meaning on OpenGL applications it not only falls short of the mark but it actually makes you wonder why they even bother adding OpenGL support.

GeForce4 is unfortunately the only series of the card to have serious bugs, rushed for shipping due to Microsofts demands (which is why the Xbox ALSO has the same bugs)

The Quattro4 XGL 900 which isn't that much more than than a Ti4600 with 128Mb Ram can push almost 2x the speed, and be used in SLi combination.
Their power combined is noticeably LESS than a single GeForce FX 620 64Mb Ram!

On my pathetic Duron 800 | 512Mb Ram | nForce Chipset system it recieved 16,891 3D Marks

ATi are scuppered with the new card... and they can only hope to compete if they lower it into the budget under $150 market. As the GeForce FX 620 hits the market at $450!

Also DirectX 8 and 9 have GeForce ONLY functions, if the compatibility is so raw then why exactly have I a novice never had any errors conserning the card when programming demos for it?

gameSpace has yet to fall up a problem with my GeForce cards under OpenGL OR DirectX - whereas my Savage4 Pro is riddled with them and my RagePro you can just forget about even using.

At the end of the day ATi have a good card, but really can't be compaired to the GeForce - you only have to check the technical limits of the cards and benchmark scores to really see this.

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Digital Awakening
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Posted: 30th Nov 2002 22:47
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Vegeta:
Have you seen any of the tests of 9500Pro? Everybody hwo knows anything about graphics cards know that it beats ti4600.

Here are some results from tests with the final version of 9500Pro and the 9700 cards vs the ti cards:
http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.html?i=1756&p=9

Are you the onlyone who don't see any difference between DX8 and DX9? DX9 supports shaders up to 3.0 among other tings. This means that bigger shaders can be programmed.

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Shadow Robert
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The differences are minimal and not speed - trust me i'm working with the 9.02 SDK here.

the Shaders are nothing to get excited about because Microsoft can't program them right and are EXTREMELY slow. I've been shown this by the guys at work who almost doubled what the builtin functions did with thier own.

They got these cards at work for test purposes, so i'll checkout on monday. But I remember the staff seriously grumbling about the poor speed they were gaining from the Radeon Cards - especially with high end tasks.

if you get ahold of the Beta of C&C Generals you'll notice the warning about them. And I've never had any real luck with them myself playtesting...

Its odd how these guys get seemingly better performance results whilst the 3DMark results clearly show unsupported features and lower speeds than the Ti series, and the speed are more comparitable to the Mx series.
Not to put it past here, but whilst reading the benchmarks it was kinda distracting having a HUGE advert for the very card they're prasing right next to the results hahaa

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Digital Awakening
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Posted: 1st Dec 2002 00:15
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Well I can't talk about DX9 since I don't know much about them but at least nVidia are all over it.

As you can see there is a huge difference between the prerelease version of 9500Pro and the final one, and the new drivers are also wonders for the card.

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 7th Dec 2002 06:31
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yeah guess thats a good point... Matrox G gain'd 75% in thier first Driver update, my Quattro has gain'd almost 120% speed since the CD Drivers a year ago

Problem is for compatibility we get in the habit of only testing the base drivers not the updates, which is why in readme's when cards have a warning usually followed by "downloading the latest drivers may fix this"

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