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Thats kinda my point, that DBP has graphicaly potential that just isnt being used...and i feel thats at least partly because the majoity of users have never got any Shadars working.
==
Incidently, i just download Nvidias CG complete package, and that itself seems to be buggy
(at least a fresh install on my system will always complain of missing files before working...)

@Darkflame

"If you cant see the difference between the target user groups of DBP and, say "C++" theres nothing i can do to make you see it.

Look at the box of Dark Basic again,it is not aiming itself at seasoned programers...its aiming itself at "newbies"."

No it isn't. There are plenty of seasoned programmers on this board to counter that point.

There is nothing on the box that states that it is for newbies to programming. NOTHING.

"(and, the diferance between Models and Shadars is that DBP fully shows you how to 3D load models."

WTF? It shows you how to load Shaders as well. Did you even read the help file? Here I'll make it easy for you. Open DBPro. Hit F1. Scroll down to TECHNICAL DOCUMENTS. Click on TECHNICAL DOCUMENTS. Click on "The FX System". And there you go. A complete tutorial on how to load shaders into DBPro.

"I *never* said DBP should show you how to *make* shadars, but it should show you how to load them"

Really? Then what did you mean by this?


It sounds like you want DBPro to make it for you.

"As changing the code is a requiremend of loading them, that should be part of the tutorial."

No, it isn't. You can use shaders without changing the code. Look under ->DarkBasic Professional->Compiler->effects and under ->DarkBasic Professinal->Help->examples->basic3d->fx. There are at least 6 shaders that that can be used without changing the code.

"This is fundimentaly different to "Images" or "SOUND" and such, as DBP supports native images anyone can make....you dont have to open up a JPEG in notepad and manualy change its data to make it work.)."

DBP supports "native"(whatever the hell that means) shaders anyone can make. You just need to know how to make them just like you need to know how to make images and sounds. Its not as easy as making images and sounds but thats irrelevant. Shaders are programs and like programs you can't just plug it into your source and have it working immediately. When you find a program off the net it usually requires some kind of modification to get running with your own program. Not all will need modification just most. Just like shaders.

"The differance between showing us how to load something (required), and showing us how to make something (not required) should be obvious."

Thats what I thought. But silly me, I had assumed you had read the help files before you decided to complain. So with statements like:

And:

I thought you meant that you wanted DBP to create them for you since you didn't know how to make them. Crazy me, eh?

"If we had to manualy edit Jpeg files to get Darkbasic to use them,there would be an outraged....as it says its Jpeg compatble."

False analogy. Just because something isn't plug and play doesn't mean that it isn't supported. Would you say that DBPro doesn't support user made plug-ins just because you have to edit the string table?

"As for Nvidias shadars, at least 90% of them dont work with DBP or are glitchy."

I'm not surprised you didn't get them working. If you'd have bothered to read the help file or even made a little attempt at learning anything about shaders you could probably quite easily get them running. Its not that hard, unless of coarse you don't know what you are doing.

"No, but they saw the pretty pictures on the box and though DBP would help them make the effects."

And you wonder why I got the impression that you wanted DBPro to make the effects?

Anyone who honestly thought this didn't bother to read the box WHATSOEVER! No where on it does it mention that any media creation apps included. It says that it supports shaders. NOT makes them!

"As i said, missleading advertising."

::sigh::

From the front page of the DBPro website:


Notice those keywords. Support, and control, NOT create.

No where on there does it say that you can create shaders from with in DBPro. It does, however, say that it supports them and that you can control them from with in DBPro. Since DBPro does support shaders and you can control them from with-in Pro your whole false advertising claim falls flat on its face.

"How often do you see FX files used in DBP games?"

How often do you see extremely detailed models? As Inferno said, most people who use DBPro are hobbists and are not dedicated to creating advanced effects. A lot of people on these boards don't even have hardware that can run shaders for that matter.

"Now, It cant be that the majoirty of people who bought DBP are idiots can it?"

Where did I say that? And you don't have to be an idiot if you don't use shaders. There are frequent discussions on this board about how DBPro should include a DX 8.1 compiler mostly by hobbists who are looking to go shareware with their games and want as broad an audience as possible. A lot of people are worried about compatiablity and are not going to use shaders for fear that it will knock their system requirements up too high. There is nothing idiotic about keeping your target audience in mind.

"Im sure if CG was more then a footnote in the manual we would be seeing far prettier looking games."

Cg isn't mentioned in the manual anywhere. DBPro doesn't claim to support Cg shaders at all actually. The only reason people are telling you to check out Cg shaders is because they are nearly syntatically identical to HLSL shaders. HLSL shaders are supported as long as they are in the .fx file format(which is stated in the help file).

Speaking of HLSL shaders, http://www.gameversity.com has a free shader programming seminar. The current class has already started, but I'm sure another one will begin soon.
--
TAZ

I suggest buying the "Cg Tutorial" it is really good for the beginner to bring you up to speed on all the jargon. Then you will be able to move on to more difficult books like the ShaderX stuff.

I got it of my b-day from a friend and its really helpful getting you up and running on the basics.

I'll second Mr. Anderson's recommendation of the "Cg Tutorial." I have it also and it is an excellent book to get started with.

@zircher

Thanks for the info.

.FX shaders were added in with the DX 9 upgrade, they are very new.
DBPro does not support Nvidia's CG and it shouldn't as CG is an outdated version of HLSL (DX 9 shading language).

Lee does have some more stuff coming when involved with .FX files in the future. Its super secret at this point though.

There is nothing about false advertising with that, you can create good looking stuff with DX 9 shaders, but its going to take some talent.

Just to inform you all - Lee is creating some shaders, though I'm not sure whether they are going to be released commercially or not.

The nvidia fx line of cards have a known hardware bug which is corrected by software in the newest drivers. The hardware does not conform to industry standards, and because of this, Halflife2 will not run at a playable speed on those cards. This may be some pixel shader problems you are experiencing. Looks like ATI is back in first, cept bout rebooting my machine when it messes up.

@TrsModel80

"The nvidia fx line of cards have a known hardware bug which is corrected by software in the newest drivers. "

I've heard of problems, but not necessarily a hardware bug. Where did you find this out? I'm curious to know the details as I've kind of wondered why Nvidia hardware wasn't running HL2 quickly.

I forget but it was an interview with sierra, ATI, and Nvidia. Nvidia admited to the problem, and they wrote drivers to fix the bug, but the sofware is using your cpu tor recompiling which is killing the extensive graphics on HL2. I think I found the interview on ATI's site. I had the 5700fx ultra and was having problems and found that interview, so I took it back and got this ati 9800 pro. Works much better.

edit

[offtopic]
Lol @Preston you sound like Agent Smith...

@Trs80Model2

"I forget but it was an interview with sierra, ATI, and Nvidia. Nvidia admited to the problem, and they wrote drivers to fix the bug, but the sofware is using your cpu tor recompiling which is killing the extensive graphics on HL2."

I heard about the recompiling but I didn't realize that it was to fix a bug. I'll search sierra's and Ati's sites to see if I can find the interview. Could be informative.

Neophyte ~ Good grief, 99% of my posts you completely missed the points.

DBP *is* aimed at a different market, blatently.
YOU *are* blind if you cant see that.

And no, saying "oh, some people will back me up here" dosnt help.
We are dealing with majoirtys here, im not saying that no c++ coders use DBP, only that it isnt advertised at them.
Too bad this forum cant do votes, else you could easily find out...



And as for the rest of the crap, you are very clearly deliberately takeing *everything* out of context.

My quotes were refering to the fact almost all shadars needs to be tweaked or edited to be worked in DBP.
"extra knowledge", "learning C"...ect...
so dont quote me like that and act all high-and mighty, those things made perfect sense in context.
====
You want to quote the manuals?
Hows this:




ie. If they dont work, you have to code them yourself.

Now ,that would be fine, if it wasnt for that fact that the vaste, vaste majoirty dont work...that effectively means that you need to know how to make shaders even if you just want to "load" them.

So, no, I say again, loading shadars is fundimentaly different from loading pictures or models.
Because when you load a picture, it works.
Every time.100%.
You arnt limited to a tiny fraction that are "useable", you dont have to try at random hundreds till you find ones that work.

DBP simply isnt a complete product yet....which is fine, all products get updates and bug fixs.
But you shouldnt start claiming its complete unless everything you represent that it can be done...can be done!

The manual also talks about:

"The DBPro FX Library is an internal resource at the moment and does not currently exist publically."

All I ask is that

a) It is made public at some point, without charge. (this is my real worry, that they will charge extra )


I dont know about the rest of you but all I knew i got was:

Bump, Cartoon, And Rainbow...
(and those are hidden in the compiler>>effects folder)

Were is the rest? Some folder i missed? oh yes, there is more somewhere else hidden.

Ansio, Simple and Bubble

At the very least we should be able to use those showen on this site without having to hit F3 "*.fx".
This is very basic stuff, I didnt even know those other 3 effects existed on my HD till now!

It seems its such an after thought that people have to explorer folders to find them, and then they are just limited to those ones because hardly any of the ones on the internet actualy work with DBP.


Of course, there are people here filling the gaps by writting tutorials and example code...which is great.

But the pictures of shadars used to advertise DBP should be represented in the manual.


Ok, now as i am clearly making myself so unclear that you miss my point...(or at very least you keep act like im saying one thing when im not)...i will hightlite the important bit:


People should be able to look at, say, that "metal shine" effect at the start of this thread,or the "water" effect and then use it without having to search around forums on the net.

These effects were used to advertise DBP and as such every DBP user with the correct hardware should be able to use them without coding shadars themselfs.

And this clearly have showen you wernt paying attention to my posts....

I've only read 0.1% of the posts in this topic, far too many words , lol

look in:

Dark Basic Professional\Help\examples\basic3d\fx

It has bubble, simple and aniso. Theres supposed to be a water and metal shader but only the special people who pay extra get it (DBDN)

Hopefully they will release some more in the nxt update

Thank you, yes, i know where they all are now, i searched for them with find.



EXACTLY!

But it wasnt advertised as "only if you pay extra".

Yer but the thing is it doesnt say that shaders are included, just that shaders are supported. I'm sure if you email Rich and ask him nicely he'll send u those shaders but i i think i did hear (or more precisly read) somewhere that those shaders were coming out in a future upgrade...

Neophyte: "Since DBPro does support shaders and you can control them from with-in Pro your whole false advertising claim falls flat on its face."

he never said DBP should be able to create shaders. he said it should be able to load any shader without issue and without having to modify the shader code.

Darkflame: "If they dont work, you have to code them yourself"

if you hadn't spent so much time arguing about it YOU PROBABLY COULD'VE LEARNED HOW TO USE EFFECTS BY NOW..!

something you have to realize is that shaders and effects are very complicated things that people make for a variety of different purposes. they might use different naming schemes, which is how DBP figures out which constants to set to what - by the names. which means most shaders you find, you will manually have to go in there and change the names. it's nothing that can be supported in DBP.

this is also supposed to be dark basic PROFESSIONAL -- as in for people who know what they're doing. there are a hell of a lot of newbies, yes, but you will have to expect some things to be difficult. not everything will be "load it in and turn it on".

as for the difficulty of shaders? for the best lesson, i'd really recommmend downloading shaderworks ([href]www.shaderworks.com[/href]). i knew nothing about shaders a week ago and now they mostly make sense to me. this program is not done and doesn't yet export the FX files (it's ALMOST done) but you can look at the code for the pixel and vertex shaders and see what's going on. it's also helpful to go on MSDN and look up Effects.. the directx effect documentation seems kind of half finished but at least it's SOMETHING.

but please, both of you stop bitching about things that don't really matter..

@Darkflame

"Neophyte ~ Good grief, 99% of my posts you completely missed the points."

And you ignore 99% of mine.

"DBP *is* aimed at a different market, blatently."

Yes. It is aimed at a market that wants a RAD development language for making games. But that isn't what you said. You said that it was aimed at beginners and I said there is nothing on the box or in the marketing that states that it is for beginners. Quote me where it says otherwise and I'll concede that point but until then you haven't proved me wrong.

"YOU *are* blind if you cant see that."

Then please, quote off TGCs website where they state that DarkBasic Professional is for beginners.

"And no, saying "oh, some people will back me up here" dosnt help."

I never said that nor did I imply it. I was refering to the fact that there are a lot of users here that are quite advanced and have been programming for a very long time. This was provided as a counter example to your claim that DBPro was a "beginners" language. It isn't. Its easy to learn, but its not aimed at people who can't program. That is what 3Dgamemaker is for.

"We are dealing with majoirtys here, im not saying that no c++ coders use DBP, only that it isnt advertised at them."

No, you are saying that it is advertised as a beginners langauge. And need I remind you that C++ isn't the only language advanced users out there favor. There are a lot of VB developers here and some of them have been programming business apps for years. Just becuase it is a "BASIC" language doens't mean that its users are begineers or that it is necessarily aimed at a beginneers market. I think VB stands as a pretty good example of this.

"Too bad this forum cant do votes, else you could easily find out..."

Oh, please.

You've claimed that this is aimed at beginners yet you haven't quoted a single piece of advertising stating so. Your whole claim is bunk. Get over it.

"My quotes were refering to the fact almost all shadars needs to be tweaked or edited to be worked in DBP."

No, in the context you sounded like you wanted a plug and play feature. This would involve creating new code. If you didn't want to learn how to program shaders, but you still wanted to the effects, how else are you going to get them other than creation?

"ie. If they dont work, you have to code them yourself."

And this comes as a shock to you? I've been telling you this whole thread that that is what you have to do and you've ignored me. If you had bothered to read the manual LIKE ANYONE WHO WANTS TO KNOW HOW SOMETHING WORKS SHOULD then you'd know this.

And don't pretend that every shader has to be edited. My post above contained several examples that are on your comp right now that don't have to be edited to work.

If you check carefully, those first two are to do with errors in your code and not errors in the shader itself. You will have to modify your code to fix those problems. If you weren't just glancing through that you'd know this. The changes that need to be made to get it to run are documented in that very help file you are quoting as well.

Look just go out, learn about shaders, then come back so we can have a meanful discussion here. This is getting really agravating trying to communicate with you why you have to do this. Its not like you wouldn't have to do this stuff if you were making your game in C++. I'll say it again, shaders are very specialized programs. The odds that you 'll find one that is just plug-in play for what you want are slim because all of the advanced effects out there use various tricks to work fast that don't apply well across the board.

"Now ,that would be fine, if it wasnt for that fact that the vaste, vaste majoirty dont work...that effectively means that you need to know how to make shaders even if you just want to "load" them."

So you want them to program it for you?

Okay, here is where the real confusion starts. You keep making claims that you want shaders to load, no modifications whatsoever on your part. This is blatantly impossible. The only why you could do this is if you had some super-parser that automatically knows what you want and adjusts the code for you. I can't help but not get the idea that you want DBPro to create these things for you. Nothing you say makes any sense whatsoever unless I look at it from that angle. What you are asking for is impossible. It can't be done.

"So, no, I say again, loading shadars is fundimentaly different from loading pictures or models.
Because when you load a picture, it works.
Every time.100%."

And do you know why that is? Its because shaders are PROGRAMS. Not simple media!

::sigh::

Its obvious you are ignoring my points. Here ya go again:

Understand that this time?

"You arnt limited to a tiny fraction that are "useable", you dont have to try at random hundreds till you find ones that work."

Here's a hint. Instead of trying hundreds of random shaders you get off your lazy a** and learn how to program them! Then you can load whatever shader you want(provided you have the hardware to support it). It really isn't that hard, and if you stopped b*tching and honest to god got out and made a *little* effort you should meet some success. Take Preston for example. He didn't know anything about shaders, but did that stop him? No, he did what any decent programmer would do and went out and made an effort to learn them. He isn't exactly a shading guru. Hell, he even said himself he got to this working through a little trial and error. But look at the results for yourself.http://darkbasicpro.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=24922&b=2 If preston can get a shader working in DBPro then surely you can. It ain't as tough as you make it out to be.

"DBP simply isnt a complete product yet....which is fine, all products get updates and bug fixs.
But you shouldnt start claiming its complete unless everything you represent that it can be done...can be done!"

::Sigh:: Shaders are supported in DBPro. If you have evidence to the contrary then, please, present it. And no, editing them doesn't count as not having full support. Refer to my Plug-in analagy for an explaination of why not.

"At the very least we should be able to use those showen on this site without having to hit F3 "*.fx"."

You can. Please, look in the help file before you post. This is getting extremely tiring.

Its becoming increasingly obvious that you want to make no effort whatsoever to get shaders to run in your program. You aren't looking at any of the help files or examples. I just don't get what you really want here. Is TGC somehow suppose to implant the information into your brain as to what commands do what? Almost all of your questions are answered in the help file with examples.

This will of coarse require that you make the grave and serious effort of hitting one or two buttons, and under taking the difficult task of understanding sentences, but I'm sure that you'll persevere.

"This is very basic stuff, I didnt even know those other 3 effects existed on my HD till now!"

Why am I not surprised?

"It seems its such an after thought that people have to explorer folders to find them, "

WTF? Oh! *gasp* I have to click a folder to find something on a computer. The Horror!

"and then they are just limited to those ones because hardly any of the ones on the internet actualy work with DBP."

I'll say it before, and I'll say it again. THIS IS NOT CLICK AND CREATE! If you won't something on the screen, you will have to PROGRAM it. If you want code off the net to work with your game you will have to MODIFY it. Shaders are CODE!

Also, YOU ARE NOT LIMITED! You can create whatever shader effect you like as long as you stick to the .fx spec and remember to set the appropriate variable(s) in your DBPRO code and load in the required media for your shader in DBPRO code. All of which is explained in the HELP FILES!

"Of course, there are people here filling the gaps by writting tutorials and example code...which is great."

Finally, something I can agree with you about.

"But the pictures of shadars used to advertise DBP should be represented in the manual."

All of them are except the water shader(the metal effect is what they are calling the ansio shader I think), which is still in beta and not included in pro. Check the help files and examples. The directories that I pointed out previously will contain them.

Also, extensive shader support was added long after the manual was printed. Its not like they neglected to talk about them when the manual was being written. They didn't exist then and no even knew that they would so they weren't included in the written manual. The help files, which are part of the current manual do mention them though.

")...i will hightlite the important bit:"

Highlight away. Though I've noticed you seem to be excluding your other points from this list. Is that intential?

"People should be able to look at, say, that "metal shine" effect at the start of this thread,or the "water" effect and then use it without having to search around forums on the net."

Why? They never said that those shaders were included in DBPro. If you downloaded the demo you and anyone else who did would know this.(And, I'll repeat myself here, the ANSIO is what they are probably calling their "metal" effect.)

"These effects were used to advertise DBP and as such every DBP user with the correct hardware should be able to use them without coding shadars themselfs."

Just becuase they were used as demostration of the product doesn't mean you are entitled to them. They didn't state that those shaders would be included in Pro. Read the advertisement again. No where in there does it state that those are included with DBPro. However, if you look down a little ways you'll see what shaders are included in Pro.

The Rainbow, Cartoon, and Bump(those others aren't shaders) are explicitly stated as being included in pro and they are. They didn't have to include the metal(again I'm refering to the ansio here because that gives good "metal" effect) and bubble but they did anyway. But hey, if the stupid water shader is that important to you here ya go complments of xanatus:
http://xanatus.com/tgc_water.zip Though, personally, I think prestons is the superior shader, but thats just my preference.

The ones that are included are there to either satisfy the command requirements(set cartoon shading on needs a cartoon shader to work with) or are provided pro bono.

"And this clearly have showen you wernt paying attention to my posts...."

Funny, how you conviently ignored the quote above it.

Here you are clearly suggesting that DBPro should help you to make the effects. If that ain't media creation I don't know what is.

You may talk a fat lot about not wanting it to make them for you, but your examples and complaints sing a whole different tune.

FFS, this is getting way out of hand! You're never going to agree with eachother so what's the point in arguing it further?

lmao

SHUT UP

NOT NECESSARY NEOPHYTE

I'll tell ya what I use, get "RenderMonkey" Fom ATI, you can create and even compile with DX9 compiler. Make one that works with this suite it will load in DBP.

@Trs80Model2

"I'll tell ya what I use, get "RenderMonkey" Fom ATI, you can create and even compile with DX9 compiler."

I use RenderMonkey too and I'll agree its pretty good. The .fx exporter isn't all that good though. The final exported file will require some tweaking to get it to work right. They seem to leave some stuff, like sampler state, completely out in some instances, but it'll get better in the future hopefully.

@DrakeX

Butt out. This doesn't concern you.

If the newbie wants to argue with me, let him. I'm fair game.

right and arguing with him makes you better?

arguing with newbies is like arguing with a wall, you'll never get anywhere and you'll look stupid in the process.

Yeah, and you still won't know how to write "SHADARS" hahahahaha

@DrakeX

"right and arguing with him makes you better?"

If by "better" you mean being right, then yes.

"arguing with newbies is like arguing with a wall, you'll never get anywhere and you'll look stupid in the process."

On the contrary, I already have got somewhere. Before this post, this kid didn't even know about the shaders on his comp or the help file that detailed how to use them. If I hadn't argued with him he wouldn't know that.

Hopefully, my argument has motivated him enough to go out and learn shaders and try to counter my point that it is impossible to do what he originaly asked for. I doubt that he'll succeed in proving me wrong, but I'm prepared to lose if it means that someone is a little wiser as a result.

As for looking stupid, thats just non-sense. I'd only look stupid if I let some newbie beat me in an argument about something that he knew nothing about.

@Krush

"Yeah, and you still won't know how to write "SHADARS" hahahahaha "

Who is this addressed to? I already know how to write shaders. If you are talking about Darkflame you might be right. If all he does is complain at me then he won't learn shaders.

"Who is this addressed to? I already know how to write shaders. If you are talking about Darkflame you might be right. If all he does is complain at me then he won't learn shaders."

darkflame keeps spelling it "shadars".

"If I hadn't argued with him he wouldn't know that."

my hero

@DrakeX

"darkflame keeps spelling it "shadars"."

I see.

I guess that shows how much I don't pay attention to spelling.

"my hero "

I'd like to suggest that this thread be locked. This is going nowhere. Its degenerated into little more than spelling flames and "I said" "she said". Basically neither person is going to persuade the other person of their point of view so why continue? I suggest everyone shake hands in a cordial and gentlemanly fashion, agree to disagree, and then everyone goes back to their projects.

Philip

well sed, sayed and spokun (notice the deliberate spellin mestakes).

MODERATORS OR ADMINISTRATOR PLEASE LOCK THIS THREAD
OR DIE A SLOW AND PAINFUL DEATH (J/K)

thankyou - ironic isnt it
i start a thread then ask it to be locked -thats sane isnt it?