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3 Dimensional Chat / Latest game models from Banshee

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Nick Igoe
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Posted: 1st Feb 2004 18:33 Edited at: 1st Feb 2004 18:39
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This is from our latest game it comes in at 1224 polys, Any comments please.






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spygamer
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Posted: 1st Feb 2004 18:39
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I love them...kind high poly rate. What did you create it with?

I trying to be a moderator. I'm nice and cool 24/7.
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Mussi
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Posted: 1st Feb 2004 18:41
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love it



Specs: AMD Athlon 1800, 256 DDRRam 266mhz, 80GB HD 7200rmp U133, Geforce 4 Ti4400 128mb
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Nick Igoe
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Posted: 1st Feb 2004 18:43
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Used Max 6. The poly count isnt too bad, I would have liked it to come in at 700 but 1200 is good enough for todays cards. Glad you like em, We are considering selling the models from the game after we get it finished as a way of controlling our costs, But this has yet to be confirmed
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Kangaroo2 BETA2
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Posted: 1st Feb 2004 18:46
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Beautifully modelled and textured as usual

Perhaps a little high on the polys, are the hydrolics, arial and weapons cylinders/cones? If so you could reduce there I guess. Also the rounded areas on the 'foot' joints counld possibly be reduced in poly's a bit, being that from most angles the overlapping details won't be visible.

Of course, if there aren't gonna be many of these things or the camera's gonna be significantly close to these areas, ignore my random ramblings.

Model looks great! I always look forward to Banshee stuff, always very professional

Quikly Studio Pro. Soon. Honest.
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Nick Igoe
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Posted: 1st Feb 2004 18:54
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the hydrolics are cylinders with the ends removed, the barrels are mode from cylinders and cones. And yes you are right there wont be many on screen prehaps 3-4 vehicles of simaler polycount with buildings.

We will be updating the Banshee model section on our site soon with 20 or so new models and the old ones being updated.
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Preston C
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Posted: 1st Feb 2004 19:01
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Oh, so you're also adding your own mech designs to your project huh? Does this mean your going to fire me? DONT FIRE ME!!!

Sorry for not updating with mechs I'm making you guys. Been a bit lazy lately.

Cheers,
Preston


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sybixsus
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Posted: 1st Feb 2004 19:02
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It's really very nice, but two things jump out at me. The windows are too large. They go up too high and they go back too far.

Also the texture of the front plate beneath the head and between the legs ( sounds weird to refer to the crotch of a mech, but that's really what it is ) doesn't fit with the yellow. It looks sort of like a grey tartan, and it needs a texture which is a little less "busy" than that.

Otherwise, it looks great, and I don't see any problem with the polycount ( assuming this is for a DB Pro game rather than Classic. )
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Andy Igoe
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Posted: 1st Feb 2004 19:02
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1200 is only 200 more polys than I was using when DBC was the "in" engine and 3dfx cards where the bee's knees. That is a low poly count!

It is planned for use in Banshee's LOD-Mesh based TerraX-2 engine too, so 1200 is just for up close visuals.


God created the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.
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Chenak
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Posted: 1st Feb 2004 22:14
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bah, 1200 polies is nothing, models in my game (gonna release an alpha soon i hope, been busy lately ) have between 3000 to 4000 polies

Great model by the way but thers something missing but im not sure what.... Ah, arms with giant machine guns

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Genesis Rage
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2004 00:25
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the thing that jumps out and screams HEY at me is...
with pure physics, the legs and feet would not be able to hold the mech up... the feet are way to small and the cockpit sticks out to far... in reality it seems that it would do a nose plant

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Nick Igoe
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2004 00:33
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Hey what the hell its a game, who would have thought a hedgehog could do the loop the loop or a one inch plumber could save the world half a dozen times.
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sybixsus
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2004 01:13
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Quote: "bah, 1200 polies is nothing, models in my game (gonna release an alpha soon i hope, been busy lately ) have between 3000 to 4000 polies "


Quote: "1200 is only 200 more polys than I was using when DBC was the "in" engine and 3dfx cards where the bee's knees. That is a low poly count!"


Well I guess it depends on your target audience. I make games in order to sell them, and that means I have to make the game work on much lower hardware than most retail games, because the Unreal fanboys are never gonna buy Indie games. Those gamers who are ignored by Epic, EA, etc because they don't have the latest hardware are my key audience, because they're hungry for great games that don't need a ninja PC.

If you're not looking to make money ( or, I suppose, if you're aiming very high and hope to hit the retail-only market where system requirements are much higher ) then you can afford to ditch those sort of considerations and make the game the way you want it to be and not worry about people who can't play it.

Having said that, I've yet to see a model around here which needed 4,000 polys. I've seen some very nice work around the 1,000 to 2,000 mark ( which I consider pretty decent for DB Pro, though it's asking a lot of Classic ) but I've yet to see anything with the kind of insane detail I'd expect in 4,000 polys. UT2k3 models barely reach that kind of amount and they're packed with detail.
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walaber
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2004 06:28
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very cool model, as usual

looking forward to the update of your site!

Go Go Gadget DBPRO!

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Andy Igoe
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2004 23:18 Edited at: 2nd Feb 2004 23:33
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I have to disagree Genesis Rage,

The pilot sits at the front of the cockpit, it is mostly air, and of course the rear of the cockpit would be laden with gear including some form of power plant which will be very heavy, this puts the mechs centre of gravity very firmly above the legs. With a few ton of powerplant there, it aint about to roll over.

Of course when somebody actually invents a real war mech and proves this design doesnt work then we'll modify the model accordingly...

Sybixsus,

I think you have missread the post - or got your numbers muddled. It is 1224 polys. That is low! Back when I was working in DBC and using a 3dfx I 800-1000 poly characters where not uncommon.

Although i'll re-iterate incase you missed it, we have our own LOD-Mesh engine here at Banshee, written in DBP, which requires a 16mb graphics card and DX9.0b (mostly only supported on 32mb and up cards) which kind of raises the bar anyway.

This meens that 1224 polys is when the mech is close to the camera, and I would argue if anything that it is too low.


God created the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.
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Chenak
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2004 22:18
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Just out of curiosity, does your LOD system have model blending, you know like when you switch the mid poly mesh with the high poly mesh?

Cos i'm working on a LOD system but i cant get round that problem

Once you start down the Dark Path, forever will it dominate your destiny...
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Mussi
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Posted: 4th Feb 2004 23:33
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could you tell me more about your LOD system Andy? does it switch to a low poly version at some distance or does it manipulates the object?



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Nick Igoe
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Posted: 5th Feb 2004 21:06 Edited at: 5th Feb 2004 21:08
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Andy here on Nicks PC:

The Banshee LOD system uses an object cache indepedant of object entities and displays the most appropriate model based upon range and scene poly count. The texture and mesh cache & LOD algorythms are independant, in general the higher quality textures appear at a longer range to keep visual quality.

As for mesh blending, if you ever get that working you will be hurting the frame rate more than you are saving. The only way to implement such a feature would be to write your own rendering engine, ie: not use DBPro. Or wait for full LOD integration into the DBP engine (patch 5231890 (which doesnt work on GeForce cards and has a bug with sprites)).

Andy

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Andy Igoe
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Posted: 9th Feb 2004 23:12 Edited at: 9th Feb 2004 23:12
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Nick has just sent me another mech model, here it is:


1696 polys


God created the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.
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MikeS
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Posted: 9th Feb 2004 23:18
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Very nice work Nick.(Or Andy maybe?)

When I first see it, nothing physically wrong comes to mind.

After careful observation, I still cannot offer any decent critique.

Nice model, and I'll await more models from Banshee.



A book? I hate book. Book is stupid.
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arras
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Posted: 9th Feb 2004 23:43
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I think that bottom parts of foots should be bigger to give it better stability and higger chance to pass on bad terrain (do you remember wide tracks of T34 in WW2?)

othervise nice job ...keep them comming
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Toilet Freak
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Posted: 10th Feb 2004 03:14
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are those rigged for animation, it'll be good to see those with some animations on them,(even a walk cycle would be good).

those models look pretty well modeled/textured.

^_^

-Toiletfreak-
Working on a 3d project(surprise), hear more about it once i clean things up with school...(big year,it's the final high schooling year-and parents are a bit more strick now)
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Nick Igoe
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Posted: 10th Feb 2004 09:03
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These models are all rigged and animated. Walking shooting dying etc. They will be available for download after we have finished our current game (as will all the models) however to cover costs there will be a small fee as the cost of Banshee Studios is becomming a little too much.

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zircher
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Posted: 10th Feb 2004 15:11
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That sounds reasonable.

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Siege
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Posted: 16th Feb 2004 21:14
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Nice model, and texture.

But how do you texture the model?
I know the simpel methode(drag and drop)
in 3dsmax with a uwmap.


How do you do it?

SiegeDelux@:
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zircher
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Posted: 16th Feb 2004 21:45 Edited at: 16th Feb 2004 21:48
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Simple question with complex answer.

Texturing of models begins with one or more image files.

When the geometry of the model is created, each triangle is a group of three vertices, some modellers support quad and higher sided polygons. Each vertex is a 3D coordinate (X,Y,Z) and may contain additional data such as what material is assigned to that vertex and a set of UV coordinates. The UV coordinates range from 0 to 1 where 0,0 is the upper left corner and 1,1 is the lower right corner. By using these values, the 3D renderer can sample the texture image and apply that part of the image to the triangle. Remember, it only takes three points to define a plane, a triangle, and thus a peice of an image file.

Ok, that's the theory. In practice, there are two main styles of assigning textures to a model. One method is called skinning where the texture image is laid out like a jigsaw puzzle and the triangle faces are mapped to fit. If you have seen some Quake or UT models you're familiar with skins. Usually an artist 'paints' the texture and a model creator uses the skin. The second method is where a lot of individual textures are used and each one is like blob of patterned paint that is applied/projected onto parts of the model. DoGA CGA, truSpace, and some other projects use that method. Most programs can use either technique and DBP will read in models with single textures or multiple textures. [BTW, multi-texturing is a different topic and deals with several textures being blended together.]

Clear as mud?
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Nick Igoe
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Posted: 16th Feb 2004 21:46 Edited at: 16th Feb 2004 21:47
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Exactly the same method(Unwrap UVW), Ive tried chilli skinner and various other skinning programs and have not got along with them for various reasons. I know this is not the most efficient way of doing it but it the method I have grown accustomed to.

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Skurai
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Posted: 17th Feb 2004 17:24
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Umm... Just checking out the forums.... I love the model .. I hope you keep it up.
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Toilet Freak
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Posted: 18th Feb 2004 02:21
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nice, alot of people suck at rigging and texturing... good work >_<

http://www.toiletfreak.dbspot.com/
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Nick Igoe
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Posted: 18th Feb 2004 10:21
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Im still learning, I really need to improve on paintshop to get the best from the models but its comming on slowly. hopefully the latest models will be on show later today. Thanks for all your encouragment, it does help.

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Nick Igoe
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Posted: 1st Mar 2004 22:39
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more models like I promised





any crits please

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Shlomi_Nahari
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Posted: 1st Mar 2004 22:40
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i like those models but for this simple models i think that the poly count is way high
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Cyberflame
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Posted: 1st Mar 2004 22:51
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I think you should intrude the window a bit. It won't add that many more polys. Look at the first one. Notice how the window goes into the model. Other than that they look great.

quad 10k terrahert cpu| 9k^9k terrabyte(tb) hd|stolen military graphics card capable of rendering all of the pixar movies in 5 secs|999^9k tb of ram

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Andy Igoe
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Posted: 1st Mar 2004 22:56
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This is for use in DBP with a machine built in the later part of the 20th century or later. The models are a few hundred pollys with the highest being about 1220 at the moment. All of which are well within the remit of DBP to render.

It really narks me when I see refferences to high poly counts on these boards. I can quite easily make DBP run a 2 billion poly map with 10k poly characters running around and make it run at over 100fps on a heap of junk from 5 years ago.

This is DBP we are talking about in the year 2004. 1200 polygons is a low poly count. A few hundred pollys is a low polly count.

Hell back in the days of 3dfx-I and DBC I was using 400 poly main characters so what is the problem with doing that now?

High poly indeed.


God created the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.
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MikeS
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Posted: 1st Mar 2004 23:08
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Great models Nick.(and/or Andy?)

Really will be interested in seeing an the mech animated.(third one)

Keep up the good work.


------------------
There really is no such thing as high polycounts these days if you build the engine right like Banshee Studios. I assume it's all in the LOD that you're able to accomplish this.



A book? I hate book. Book is stupid.
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John H
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Posted: 2nd Mar 2004 00:30
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Very nice, a bit Star Wars inspired I might say, very nice though


We need help! Email us! [email protected]
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AlecM
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Posted: 2nd Mar 2004 01:26
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Those look pretty nice. Been looking at ghoulish art's models, eh?

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Gir
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Posted: 2nd Mar 2004 02:12
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Like the texturing on the mech, but I definitley agree with Arras, as it looks very unstable and the legs look weak, think it needs beefing up a little.

Other than that very nice

I'm makin' a cake...
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walaber
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Posted: 2nd Mar 2004 05:04
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the hovercraft is top-notch!

Go Go Gadget DBPRO!

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zircher
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Posted: 2nd Mar 2004 20:00
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Any chance that you used to play Steve Jackson's Ogre? The first two remind of the heavy tank and GEV units.
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Nick Igoe
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Posted: 2nd Mar 2004 21:45
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In reply to Froggerman, I have never seen goulish arts models, If you give me the link I`ll be happy to have a look.

In reply to RPG gamer, Starwars was my life when it came out, I was seven and all I wanted to do was become a stormtrooper. ( I was dissapointed by the last two films though)

In reply to zircher, Never heard of it

Thanks for the comments, It does help.

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zircher
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Posted: 2nd Mar 2004 23:28 Edited at: 2nd Mar 2004 23:28
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Ogre and GEV were micro wargames that were popular in the 80s and still have something of a cult following. It eventually spawned several other products such as a miniatures game and a GURPs source book.

http://www.sjgames.com/ogre/
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Nick Igoe
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Posted: 3rd Mar 2004 21:00 Edited at: 3rd Mar 2004 21:07
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{Edit}

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Gjl
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Posted: 4th Mar 2004 00:25
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The mechs are nice, but I really think they would look better with gun-mounted arms, such as those in games like Front Mission. The first mech looks rather skinny and flimsy in my opinion, although I suppose this is intentional as it's probably the 'weakest' mech available.
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zircher
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Posted: 4th Mar 2004 00:59
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I figure it's a style thing. After all, the leg bones might be made of diamond mono-filament reinforced steel and strong enough to kick the snot out of a main battle tank. Without some background info on materials technology, the actual situation is best guess.
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AlecM
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Posted: 4th Mar 2004 07:30 Edited at: 4th Mar 2004 07:30
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Never seen ghoulish arts's models? Maybe you know him by Max Shelekov... Or not at all. Could be just be a coincidence.

Anyway, heres the model that remided me of your tank.
http://www.turbosquid.com/HTMLClient/FullPreview/Index.cfm/ID/195361/Action/FullPreview

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zircher
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Posted: 4th Mar 2004 17:52
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Very nice, but for $160 bucks I'm going to have to make my own for when I create a Renegade Legion: Centurian gameset for VirMin. Thanks for the link.
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Nick Igoe
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Posted: 5th Mar 2004 01:28 Edited at: 5th Mar 2004 01:30
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thanks for the link it was purely coincidence even though I visit turbo squid quite a lot. looking at those models it appears I have a lot to learn. But i like to think i am getting there, If I spent less time in the pub and more time modelling I would get there sooner (and be a LOT richer )

As for charging $160, I think thats a fair price, I usually spend 8-12 hours on a model and hes offering 10.

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zircher
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Posted: 5th Mar 2004 03:04
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Right, it's not over priced at all, if I had a gaming budget. But, this is my hobby rather than beer drinking with the crew.
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zircher
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Posted: 7th Mar 2004 04:12 Edited at: 7th Mar 2004 04:47
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Well, after seeing Nick's hover tank and the Ghoulish Arts page, I thought I'd take a stab at it. I can tell you one thing for sure, trying curves right off the bat was kind of a dumb idea. It too far too long to figure out how to map those like I wanted. I started by slapping together some geometry in DoGA CGA and then I exported it to Metasequoia LE where I tweaked the model and played with the texture mapping tools for hours. I then exported it all to .X so I could preview it as a game model via DBP. I think the results are good enough to show, but it does point out that I don't have an artistic bone in my body.

http://www.geocities.com/tzircher/ga_test.htm

I do want to get better at this, but I can see that the only way to get there is by practice, practice, practice.
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[For those that might think that I'm too hard on myself, you don't have to live under the shadow of a top notch illustrator. My brother Patrick is a freelancer for Marvel and DC Comics. Compared to him, I'll always be a hack.]

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