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Geek Culture / Very dangerous precedent in the making (patents)

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KNau
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2004 09:41 Edited at: 3rd Feb 2004 09:43
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This is likely of little consequence to hobbyists but for those of you who plan to develop shareware or retail games you should be aware of the absolute insanity going on with the patenting process right now. Basically, the American patent system is still stuck in the early 20th century and companies and individuals are being granted software patents for abstract ideas. Some are even being granted patents on properties they didn't create and applying for patents retroactively, which is supposed to be illegal.

Companies like Microsoft, Sony, EA and Sega have been using patents to bully each other for quite a while now. Witness Sega suing EA over the idea of how pedestrians jump out of the way of a moving car and having an arrow direct a vehicle to waypoints:

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=2692

Also Symantec has a patent on the idea of patching games over the internet. They claim they aren't interested in enforcing it, yet! But like so many companies before them the strategy is to simply wait until the opportune moment before launching frivolous lawsuits in an attempt to bully the competition and cash in.

But the situation has recently broadened to include individuals filing against small, independent developers. Check out this recent situation with a guy who was granted a patent (in 1996!) for computer solitaire!

http://www.asharewarelife.com

As if the Digital Millenium Copyright Act wasn't dangerous enough, now we have a patent office running amok and I seem to remember there was pressure on the UK to make their patent process more lenient like the US - don't do it! Otherwise, the DB team had better be the first to apply for a patent on "a high level scripting language that controls Direct X calls".

I urge anyone with a website or bulletin board to help make this issue known, especially if you hope to work in video game development either independently or even at a studio. The situation is completely out of hand. If anyone else has other links or information to share, this is as good a place as any.

**steps off his soapbox**, sorry for the rant.
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Neophyte
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2004 09:53
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@Knau

These are some extremely worrying developments. This does not bode well for the industry at all.

"**steps off his soapbox**, sorry for the rant. "

Don't be. Someone needed to say it.
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the_winch
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2004 10:44
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The Us pattent office appears to be in a complete mess, and not just with computer related stuff, they don't appear to bother about prior art at all.
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M00NSHiNE
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2004 14:36
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These people are crazy!! What the hell are they doing? Soon life will be pateneted, then air, then water....some sick and weird people will do anything for more money.

Currently thinking of a new company name
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waffle
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2004 14:50
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I think I should plce a patent on the online version of the word tHe.

or would that be a tademark? Maybe everyone needs to patent or copywrite thier online names...

Actually, I think the real problem is companies are applying for so many pattents that the office can't keep up with proccessing. Part of the problem is the interpretation of the word "improved"... Hot wheels and Matchbox had a fight over thier race tracks because the Hot Wheels Track was yellow and this was interpretted to be "improved" over Matchbox'es track because of the color. No mention of the initial "Idea" of a track patent due to the "Idea" was improved upon ....

This would also apply to Online Solitair and most other games....
Did you "Improve" on the "Idea" or simply copy the "Idea".....
Thats what lawyers are for

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IanM
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2004 14:56 Edited at: 3rd Feb 2004 15:56
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Quote: "Soon life will be pateneted"


Erm ... I have news for you ... you can already patent a gene sequence or a cell.

There's a full breakdown and analysis of the current attempt to patent software on this link.

There are all sorts of major considerations with this proposal.

For example, take a Word document. The format of the document solves a technical problem, ie how to store textual and graphical information in such a form that it can be stored and retrieved by Microsoft Word. If this was allowed to be patented then it would be illegal for you or anyone else to read this file using any program other than Word. In fact it would be illegal for anyone to attempt to reverse engineer the format.

Edit : Corrected the above from copyrighted

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M00NSHiNE
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2004 14:58
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The world's full of control freaks like that.

Currently thinking of a new company name
Sticking to a project idea for once
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UnderLord
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2004 17:46
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Take a look a look at AOL vs the ICQ company AOL stole there code and patented it and then sued ICQ for using it. Even though AOL's AIM is based off the same code as ICQ. It does indeed worrie me as sooner or later i could be sued for some stuiped thing for who knows what and the same goes for anyone.

The search continues.
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Jeku
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2004 23:17
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Jeff Bezos from Amazon.com is as guilty as anyone with crazy software patents! I mean, he patented the '1-click checkout' scheme then sued Barnes & Nobles online when they had a similar strategy.

Also, Microsoft has been sued by a university professor (his name escapes me) who had a patent on enabling plug-ins for a web browser. This includes Flash, ActiveX, Java, stuff like that. Basically Microsoft has been ordered to change IE, but they're dragging their heels (which they should, because that's a ridiculous patent, even if it *is* against Microsoft).

My memory is bad for names, but there is a company who patented online storefronts that show catalogs of items which can be "checked out" like a real store. This basically includes everyone from Ebay to Amazon to The Game Creators (gasp!). They have stated on a Slashdot article that they have sued various mom 'n' pop low volume dealers and charged several thousand dollars each for a license to sell online. Their next victim? Ebay, apparently.

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burrbittyburr
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Posted: 4th Feb 2004 09:11
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Patents make me want to chuck! Anything new is built from a collection of old ideas. Evolution is all about taking old ideas and blending them with new interpretations.
The Patent Office should close and let the world move on without limitation.

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Jeku
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Posted: 4th Feb 2004 10:18
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No, I disagree that the patent office should close. They should, however, be less haphazard with the patents they award and give the real inventions the credit they deserve.

If you have a genuine invention, I believe it's necessary to protect it to earn money-- that's just normal business.

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Neophyte
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Posted: 4th Feb 2004 22:22
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Jeku has a point. Without patents there would be no serious effort toward innovation as it just wouldn't be profitable to put millions of dollars into curing cancer only to have some leach copy your work and undercut your price. Without the overhead of researching a new idea, they could make a killing at half the price you are selling at while you can barely make it in the black.

If the above happened, the cure for cancer or some other disease would never be found as there just is no incentive to invest all that money only to lose it because your competition will almost always easily undercut you by a large amount.

I don't think that it is a strech of the imagination to say that every major medical advance we've had in the past 100 years owes its existance to patents. Without patents, we'd probably still be using leaches.
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ReD_eYe
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Posted: 4th Feb 2004 22:32
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*pulls leach off*
oh? we don't use leaches anymore?
*throws leach at cat*


GO TO THE ETERNAL DESTINY FORUMS!!! http://forums.eternaldestinyonline.com
Do it now!!!
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Flashing Blade
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Posted: 4th Feb 2004 22:37
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Quote: "I don't think that it is a strech of the imagination to say that every major medical advance we've had in the past 100 years owes its existance to patents. Without patents, we'd probably still be using leaches. "


I think it is stretch.

Not everyone is motivated by money (thank God).

IMHO
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Jeku
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Posted: 4th Feb 2004 22:47 Edited at: 4th Feb 2004 22:48
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Quote: "I think it is stretch.

Not everyone is motivated by money (thank God).
"


Sounds like you're just saying that because that's the way you *want* it to be. Businesses NEED a profit to stay alive, that's just the way it is. Whether or not the true motivation is money, it's still nice to get it when it's deserved :p

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Flashing Blade
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Posted: 5th Feb 2004 00:09
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Yes I do want it to be true - but you right it aint.

I am willing to concede that money & patents will be the overiding factor in any medical breakthoughs for the next hundred years. But I don't believe it to be so for the past hundred years.
Sadder still is that there will be good people in the future motivated by things other than money but will still need to bow to the ulmighty doller.

Again all IMHO
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Jeku
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Posted: 5th Feb 2004 01:52
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Well that's life--- we need money to survive.

I think this thread will turn into a "flaming the big corps" thread from a few weeks back.

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Neophyte
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Posted: 5th Feb 2004 02:17
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@Jeku

"I think this thread will turn into a "flaming the big corps" thread from a few weeks back."

Hopefully it won't. That thread was so lame.

@FlashingBlade

Maybe it is a strech for a 100 years. But after medical advances were no longer capable of being made during peoples spare time or by accident, the real money moved in and it has stayed there since. I wouldn't call that necessarily a bad thing; a lot of advances have been made in medicine due to the drug co.s ability to leverage the millions that they poured into research through patents.

I also wouldn't necessarily call it an entirely good thing either. There are a lot of diseases or disorders out there that could probably be easily cured if even a fraction of the normal amount spent on regular diseases was spent on them. Unfortunately, those diseases are either too rare or too niche to be profited from finding a cure to.

Patents in medicine can be a double edged sword.
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Phaelax
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Posted: 5th Feb 2004 02:28
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Quote: "Erm ... I have news for you ... you can already patent a gene sequence or a cell."


If I recall, someone did patent their DNA. So, could someone make a clone, then sue it?

"eureka" - Archimedes
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Ian T
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Posted: 5th Feb 2004 02:46
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Good idea. I think I'll patent my idea and the concept of my brain, and if anyone ever brings me back, sue the crap out of them and die again.

--Mouse: Famous (Avatarless) Fighting Furball

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Lord Ozzum
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Posted: 5th Feb 2004 06:42
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Wow, i thank that i should pattent everything 've said in my life, you cannot do write anthing i say/type without my explicit permission and i might just patent patenting, so if anyone is patenting, i will sue them all! But, wow, i never knew about this. As soon as i get a website, it'll be the first article i put up.

Then comes tomorrow and you're a little shorter of your breath and one day closer to your death...
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UnderLord
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Posted: 5th Feb 2004 07:20
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Wait everyone shut up and listin!!

*listins for a few seconds*

you hear that....its a flamewar!

*moves to the side five steps*

The search continues.
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james1980
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Posted: 5th Feb 2004 07:23
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all that greed will cost them sooner or later.
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Phaelax
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Posted: 6th Feb 2004 08:46
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I just heard about this blog on gamedev.net. Apparently, someone is claiming to own a patent on computer solitaire, and thus all computer card games. What a load of horse's !@&$!!!

http://www.asharewarelife.com/

"eureka" - Archimedes
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AlecM
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Posted: 6th Feb 2004 09:03 Edited at: 6th Feb 2004 09:05
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I think the correct term for something like this is "F UCKING RETADED"

Especially when its an established game like solitair. I think the pattent office has always been a mess. Its very difficult to look examine and record soo many patents. Especially when you have a*holes looking to take advantage of the system.



Games should be teated like art. You may reproduce/clone/pay homage to anything, but not directly steal any media or code.

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Kharnor
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Posted: 6th Feb 2004 09:05 Edited at: 6th Feb 2004 09:09
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Software patents? pfah. If it ain't protected by copyright, it shouldn't be protected.


Hey, I've got an idea of how to start WW3!!! I'll patent peace, then sue every country in the world for a million dollars for every day they are at peace with any other country!

@phaelax
Yeah, that was mentioned in the first post.

{edit}That guy has a '96 patent on computer solitaire? Well, Microsoft's solitaire program has copyright dating from '81. See what i mean?

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe." -Albert Einstein
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Dreq934
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Its cool, let them have their patents. Eventuially the stupidity of the whole thing will collapse on itself when people stop developing alltogether. "Ok, so I can't have a game where a car drive on the road because X companey has a patent.. I can't have a game where the car drives offroad,b ecause that also has a patent..". I would personally find it amusing to watch the technological side of society collapse and send us back to mideval times.. Unless, of course, someone patents the idea of holding a sword; or worse, sleeping in a house made out of organic material

"I LIKE MARSHMELLOWS!" - Homestar Runner
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Dreq934
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Posted: 6th Feb 2004 09:39
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I've been searching the patent site, and heres a few thigns you may wanna watch out for:

Co-Op Multiplayer
"An electronic game for multiple, preferably two, players requires that the players act independently and cooperatively at different points in the game in order to complete the game."

Client/Server Online games
"A method comprises linking a plurality of units with a central server, operating a virtual game on the server, and offering purchasing options to users of the units to purchase virtual non-monetary assets for use in the virtual game."

Any Logged Online Chat System
A message exchange method can realize a chat easily in an interface with users who are on-line using a chat window. First status information of a receiving client that will receive a message is confirmed. Then, when the receiving client is connected to a message server, a sender is asked whether chat should be carried out. A chat window is displayed in accordance with a chat instruction received from the sender, and then, the message is stored in a message log, displayed on the chat window and sent to the receiving client.

Well, time for me to put down my programming tools, i'm gonna just work on music.. Happy coding!

"I LIKE MARSHMELLOWS!" - Homestar Runner
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MushroomHead
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Posted: 6th Feb 2004 14:00 Edited at: 6th Feb 2004 14:25
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KNau says :-

Quote: "I seem to remember there was pressure on the UK to make their patent process more lenient like the US - don't do it!"


So far EU parliament succeeded in repelling patents but Microsoft and other US firms have become more aggressive in forcing EU to submit to their needs ... most recent being SCO/Linux case. Read about what's happening in the European patenting area here :-

http://swpat.ffii.org/news/recent/index.en.html#usrep0309

- Rav.
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Rob K
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Posted: 6th Feb 2004 15:36
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I think Amazon's patent for 1-click ordering has to be the most stupid patent ever awarded!

Interestingly though, are you still affected by a patent if your software is open source under the GPL? (ie. you cannot profit from it directly, only indirectly by charging for distribution)


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IanM
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Posted: 6th Feb 2004 15:51
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Yes, you are affected. The licencing state of software has no bearing on whether you have illegally used patented material

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Neophyte
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Posted: 6th Feb 2004 18:04
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I believe that the reason people get such stupid patents is becuase the offices in the U.S. don't check them. Bad patent claims are usually handled by the court system when someone trys to sue someone else.

I don't think there is any reason to be alarmed at the patents these guys hold. They won't stand up in court for 5 min. Unfortunately, the flaw with this system is that not everyone has the money to afford a lawyer.
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Jeku
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Posted: 6th Feb 2004 20:24
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@Neophyte - I don't know if it's not that they don't check them. It's more like the patent checker people (whatever they're called hehe) are probably technologically illiterate late 50's men/women who don't know the difference between a mouse and a joystick. That's the picture I have of these guys anyways.

Some of the patents will stand up in court--- just hopefully not all of them. Some of the more ridiculous ones (like Amazon's 1-click ordering system) have actually been to court and have been won by the patentee.

The funniest one I've seen in the games industry is Sega suing EA over their Simpsons Road Rage game. They say they have a patent on the "crazy taxi" genre and the Road Rage game is a ripoff (which it is). What amazes me is that almost every game out there is a derivative of another game. Take the Simpsons Hit & Run game which shamelessly stole almost everything from GTA 3. I don't have a problem with it, myself, as the consumers should be the final judges and buy the better game. GTA 3 is still better than the Simpsons game (IMO) so that's the one I have purchased.

For more info on the Sega vs. Fox vs. EA vs. Radical case, here's the slashdot link: http://games.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/12/05/0642220&mode=nested&tid=123&tid=127&tid=186&tid=99

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Neophyte
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Posted: 6th Feb 2004 21:18
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Yeah, I heard about Sega sueing EA. I'll agree that Road Rage does appear to be a shameless ripoff, but I hope that Sega loses. If they win, the precedent they set will be very damaging to the industry. Everybody "borrows" ideas. Its what the art world is all about and games are an art form if you ask me.

If they win, gamers everywhere will lose out big time as very few new games will get developed because, as you said, almost every game out there is a derivative of another game.

Scary stuff.
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AlecM
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Posted: 6th Feb 2004 21:34
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we have public defenders. And in cases like this some better lawyers might come out of the wood work to defend somebody.

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IanM
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That's the whole point of this thread and what makes the current direction of patent laws in Europe and the US so scary.

Under some of the proposals being considered for the EU, all that you have to do is express your idea as the solution to a particular problem and you would be awarded the patent. Why is this so dangerous? Read this one section http://swpat.ffii.org/index.en.html#intro. You are liable if you infringe on a patent even if you didn't know it existed

Personally, I think that the current moves in the patent laws are a joke ... unfortunately, there are many people out there who are serious, or maybe are they getting their pockets lined ...

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Phaelax
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Posted: 6th Feb 2004 22:08
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Quote: "What amazes me is that almost every game out there is a derivative of another game"



I think the makers of Quake are entitled to a very large sum of money then. Unless you guys know of an earlier 3D fps?

"eureka" - Archimedes
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Ian T
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Posted: 6th Feb 2004 22:16
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3d is wholly an illusion and there were true 3d games before quake. 'True' 3d as we think of it is just a way of rendering dots on a screen. It'd be interesting watching id try to patent 3d FPS and having other companies slip around it because their engines use wholly different rendering techniques.

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Dave J
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Posted: 7th Feb 2004 08:00
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Quote: " think the makers of Quake are entitled to a very large sum of money then. Unless you guys know of an earlier 3D fps?"


Wolf3D, also created by iD, I believe it uses the same method as the Build engine (Duke3D and many other games) so if they were to patent it they could still get a large sum. However, John Carmack has a twin turbo Ferrari F3 anyway so I don't think he or anyone else at iD really cares too much lol. Plus, they're more about the games then the money.


"Computers are useless they can only give you answers."
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