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3 Dimensional Chat / Improving DeleD discussion

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ArcAngel
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Posted: 14th Mar 2004 05:16
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JeroenNL you asked why I said DeleD was lame and now I guess I'll tell you . While I like your programs UI and the concept of it (especially making into a full 3D editor) it still can be improved.

For on there is no undo button, that kinda stinks. It's hard to select something, I can only do it by holding shift. It lacks complexion, lol, which I know sounds weird. But it needs to have precision commands, commands that do some variaty of details. Another thing is the options shortcut (ctrl + alt + O) does not open the configuration menu like said, instead it opens the Open Map window. Here's the 2 big ones, ready? You cannot import your own bitmap files because you have it set to your .dtp thingy. The other big thing is that there is no mipmapping. Other things are there isn't a middle mouse button support. And last but not least there is no live feedback on manual rotation. Like rotating the with your mouse instead of punching in the numbers.

These are just my opinions and maybe I'm stupid and you do have some of these things and I'm just not seeing it. If thats the case then you need to put that in your help file (which could use improvment, maybe a tutorial or two) or make it simpler somehow. I think your defiently on track though.

Please don't take any of my opinions harshly JeroenNL, so... yea... I just know that I love it when people tell me what needs to be done on my programs, sometimes I get a little bent, but I have to remember that it's all for the good.

-Strad

"There's a glitch in the Matrix"
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JeroenNL
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Posted: 14th Mar 2004 10:47 Edited at: 14th Mar 2004 12:15
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That's more like it Strad. I'll comment on your suggestions now:

* Undo is in the making and will probably be in the next release.

* Select: I choose a combination of keyboard+mouse to select things. That way you won't suddenly select something by mistake because you explicity have to use the Shift key too. Just a matter of getting used to, after which most people like it.

* Detail commands: I'm not sure what you mean by this. Can you be more specific?

* CTRL-ALT-O opens the Options menu on my system. If it doesn't on yours, then something strange is going on.

* Bitmaps: of course you can use your own bitmaps. Just place them in the Texture directory and create your own texturepack with them. Only 128x128 (or 256x256) 24b BMP and JPG files for now. This definately will be improved in later versions.

* Mipmapping: it actually does use mipmapping on the 3D view.

* Middlemouse: I have yet to find a good function for the middlemouse. Suggestions welcome.

* Rotation: have you tried rotating with the mouse? Commands like move/scale/rotate can be performed by either the mouse, the keyboard or by using the command windows. When using the mouse or keyboard, you'll have your life feedback.

* Help/tutorials: the Help file is very limited because I realised almost nobody takes the time to read it. Now, tutorials... that's a good point. One tutorial is in the making (by Hamish actually, member of this forum) which is a good thing. I just don't have enough time to write extensive help/tutorial files (remember I develop DeleD in my spare time).

As you can see, most of the things you mentioned are in there already or will be in there in the future. But anyway, this post is something I can actually use to improve DeleD instead of just reading remarks on how lame it is. Just be sure I know DeleD isn't finished yet and it will take quite some time before it is (if it ever will be).

Use the free 3D modeller DeleD to get skilled in 3d editing! Visit http://www.delgine.com for more info.
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Philip
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Posted: 14th Mar 2004 18:10
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The ability to import and export *.x files would also be useful.

What do you mean, bears aren't supposed to wear hats and a tie? P1.3ghz / 384 megs / GeForce MX 5200 128meg / WinXP home
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Hamish McHaggis
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Posted: 14th Mar 2004 18:11
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You can export .x files, but not import yet. The export only works with DB if you triangulate the scene first.

Trying is the first step towards faliure.
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ArcAngel
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Posted: 14th Mar 2004 20:20 Edited at: 14th Mar 2004 20:26
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Yea, I should have backed my opinion up in the first place anyway .

I'm glad that the undo button will possibly be in the next release, I'm sure thats really hard to program and I feel your pain.

Now that you mention it and I use it a little more I am starting to like the fact you have to use shift to select something. Good thinking.

As you requested I'll explain what I mean by detail commands. For example: In Gmax there are tons of commands that tweak the smallest little things and some big things too.

Ctrl Alt O does not open the options window for me, so thats kind of odd. Does anyone else reading this have the same problem? We should look into that one. Or, I mean you lol.

Bitmaps! Very useful then, I thought I tried putting them in the texture folder but I guess not. If I have anymore trouble with that I'll let you know.

I meant more like UV mapping actually. Or does it?

Middle mouse button: Are you kidding me! Look at Metasoqiua (er however you spell it )! The left is for moving, the middle is for rotating, the right is for zooming. You could easily have another view in there for the people that went out and bought a 3 buttoned mouse for making levels and stuff. That way you don't have to press that zoom button at the top, it can just be for those who don't have the middle mouse button

When rotating an object with the mouse Metasoquia (For example) tells you what angle the object is at. When you move the mouse the angle changes (duah) but it also displays it. You could also improve it by having it so you can rotate it in the free perspective window too.

And last but not least Hamish, good luck. Over and Out!

-Strad

"There's a glitch in the Matrix"
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JeroenNL
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Posted: 14th Mar 2004 22:59 Edited at: 14th Mar 2004 23:14
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Indeed Undo is very hard to program. I have choosen to implement a relative simple system which backs up objects before you edit them and places them back on Undo. Works pretty well, but only on small objects (< let's say 3000 vertices), but that's good enough for a lowpoly modeller.

Ctrl-alt-O is indeed very weird... if anyone has the same problem, please step forward!

Bitmaps: you need to place them in a seperate folder within the texture folder. DeleD scans the Texture folder looking for folders and bitmaps in those folders. Same goes for Prefabs.

UV mapping: not yet. Or at least, very basic mapping right now until I implement more robust UV mapping techniques.

Middlemouse: nice idea. I use shift+rightmouse to zoom (i never use the buttons on top) on all views but I think I'll add the middlemouse for that functionality too.

Rotating: ah, is that what you mean. Well, that would mean I have to store the rotation angles with the object. I'll think about adding it in a next release.

Keep them good ideas comin'!

edit: just implemented middlemouse for zooming and I like it already.

Use the free 3D modeller DeleD to get skilled in 3d editing! Visit http://www.delgine.com for more info.
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Cyberflame
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Posted: 15th Mar 2004 05:31
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rotate the middle mouse wheel and... BAM! you zoom in (thats the #1 function for the wheel)

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JeroenNL
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Posted: 15th Mar 2004 16:04
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Indeed, when you scroll your middle mouse wheel, you zoom in/out. But when you press (!) the middle mouse wheel (so it clicks) and then drag, you also zoom in/out. But much faster. Give it a try in the new DeleD, to be released shortly.

Use the free 3D modeller DeleD to get skilled in 3d editing! Visit http://www.delgine.com for more info.
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nrasool
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Posted: 16th Mar 2004 18:00
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@JeroenNL

Okay, just downloaded this now, and trying it out.

First impression, very good, solid platform when starting out.

Some notes when i was running it

1. When in 3d mode, i do wish for the mouse wheel to move around the screen, as cursor keys and mouse is a bit fiddly

2. Undo function, this is really needed . Next version should have this

3. The grid layout is very good, however, when you draw a box, can we have some customisable line color, at the moment its grey, in my opinion is should be black, i would like to have the option to do this [Edit] Remove this request, just found out the option, sorry [/edit]

4. In the next version, will you be able to delete faces, when i create a cube, then use the hollow function, i cannot delete the face

The ease of use, is very good in this program, and i will be continuing to use it, so keep up the good work.

PS. This should be a sticky thread

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dark coder
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Posted: 16th Mar 2004 18:34
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its a very nive proggy, although its not a very friendly ui, so i gave up im not a very persistant person :-P

if you made the selection tool rotation tools and all much easier, and is the camera allways clunky like that so it moves like 10 units per movement, thats why i favour cshop alot more

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JeroenNL
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Posted: 16th Mar 2004 18:45
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Quote: "1. When in 3d mode, i do wish for the mouse wheel to move around the screen, as cursor keys and mouse is a bit fiddly

2. Undo function, this is really needed . Next version should have this

3. The grid layout is very good, however, when you draw a box, can we have some customisable line color, at the moment its grey, in my opinion is should be black, i would like to have the option to do this [Edit] Remove this request, just found out the option, sorry [/edit]

4. In the next version, will you be able to delete faces, when i create a cube, then use the hollow function, i cannot delete the face"


Thanks for your feedback. I'll comment:

1. Move around the screen. Do you mean zooming in/out? Mousewheel already does that. In the next release (sometime later this week) you can also click the mousewheel and drag to zoom in/out.

2. Roger. Next version will have that. A relative simple Undo system has been implemented that can undo all actions performed on objects smaller than 2048 vertices (dynamic number, i can enlarge that number).

3. Ok, request ignored.

4. You can already delete faces. Go to polygon mode, select the polygons you want to delete (using shift+leftclick or shift+ctrl+leftclick) and press Delete. If this doesn't work for you, let me know.

Quote: "if you made the selection tool rotation tools and all much easier, and is the camera allways clunky like that so it moves like 10 units per movement, thats why i favour cshop alot more"


@ darkcoder: you say "much" easier: do you have suggestions on making them easier because quite frankly, I kinda feel it can't get easier much more. Just select your edit mode (object, polygon, vertice etc) and use shift+leftclick or shift+ctrl+leftclick to select items. Then rotate/move/scale by selecting the appropiate buttons. The camera doesn't have to be clunky. You can set the values in the option screen OR you can use shift+rightmouse to zoom in/out and ctrl+rightmouse to move up/down. Give it a try, you'll see that it moves smoothly. Read the manual, if you haven't already (which I think you didn't ).

Use the free 3D modeller DeleD to get skilled in 3d editing! Visit http://www.delgine.com for more info.
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zircher
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Posted: 17th Mar 2004 18:53 Edited at: 17th Mar 2004 18:54
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Quote: "You can export .x files, but not import yet. The export only works with DB if you triangulate the scene first."


This is a bug in patch 5.2. It has been fixed in development so expect to be able to use quads and such again in the next release. I uninstalled DBP 5.2 and reinstalled back up to patch 5.1 since there was nothing in 5.2 but grief for me.

Similarly, I believe DBP's .X parser ignores the alpha channel on colors. Hopefully, that will be in the next update, but I haven't heard anything about that. TGC re-wrote the .X parser for 5.2 so it remains to be seen how the next incarnation will fare.

Does your program have DBO support, yet? I think that would be a feather in your cap if you could add that.
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JeroenNL
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Posted: 17th Mar 2004 21:08
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DeleD doesn't support DBO yet but it sure sounds interesting. Where can I find info about the fileformat?

Use the free 3D modeller DeleD to get skilled in 3d editing! Visit http://www.delgine.com for more info.
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zircher
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Posted: 17th Mar 2004 22:07
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A web link was mentioned in the forums a while back, but this is a better answer...

xanatus:
Hi, is there any way to find out the structure of .dbo files? i ask in order to write an own import/export plugin for other editors eg. milkshape

Rob K:
Hi Xanatus,

Just email Mike for the DBO documentation: [email protected]
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