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Geek Culture / 1 year ago

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heartbone
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Posted: 21st Mar 2004 20:24
WHAT THE PAPERS WERE PRINTING A YEAR AGO - Editorial positions of the principal Scottish and UK newspapers in the run-up to war in Iraq:

--- The foolish (lying or gullible) warmongers ----------------------------

The Scotsman Pro-war
We have waited 12 years to disarm Saddam and, as 11 September shows, such patience is now being misread to our detriment. In the words of Mr Blair in his Common’s speech on 18 March: “ Iraq is not the only regime with WMD. But back away now from this confrontation and future conflicts will be infinitely worse and more devastating.� (20 March 2003)

Scotland on Sunday Pro-war
Sadly there is no ultimately no alternative to using force against Iraq. Saddam has spent more than a decade since the Gulf war defying the UN’s demands that he disarm. Our troops will need our strongest support, and their families should expect our fullest solidarity. For what they are about to do is right and just and will be celebrated by ordinary Iraqis. (16 March 2003)

The Times Pro-war
Unless clear rules are established, by force if needs be, then such poisons will become the currency of future conflict. (14 February 2003)

The Sun Pro-war
It is a twin threat of rogue states trading in the most deadly weapons and unscrupulous terrorist groups around the world who twist the religion of Islam to their own murderous ends. That is why we have to strike and strike hard against Saddam. (19 March 2003)

The Sunday Times Pro-war
Avoiding war means allowing Saddam to keep his weapons of mass destruction. It would encourage other rogue dictators to reach for the nuclear trigger. So war it has to be. And soon. (16 March 2003)

The Observer Pro-war
We understand Mr Blair’s preparedness to act at some point because we share his analysis of the terrible risks posed by Saddam, not least to his own people. Britain must not say never to military action. (16 February 2003)

--- The ethical voices for peacful resolutions ---------------------------------

Sunday Herald Anti-war
This troika of the willing [Bush, Blair and Aznar], a coalition of the decided, have reached the end of the line they drew themselves. And it will not be the UN who decides when the point is reached: the US, like a self-appointed judge, jury and executioner, has decided, and its decision is final.

They have wasted enough time on diplomacy, and now they want their appointment with destiny: a war against Saddam with, as ever, God on their side.

It will be called a war – but in truth it will be, to use Bush’s parlance, a turkey-shoot, because Iraq has no answer to this scale of force. (16 March 2003)

The Herald Anti-war
The Herald has argued consistently against any war that does not have the backing of the international community as set out in a fresh UN resolution. (18 March 2003)

Daily Record Anti-war
Three-quarters of the British people were against going to war without the full authority of the United Nations. It is the wrong war at the wrong time. (20 March 2003)

Sunday Mail Anti-war
Our leaders can try to shift the blame on to the French for failing to secure a new UN resolution. That is too convenient. In reality, the Prime Minister and the US President have manufactured this war. (16 March 2003)

Independent on Sunday Anti-war
Not in our name, Mr Blair. You do not have the evidence. You do not have UN approval. You do not have your country’s support. You do not have your party’s support. (9 March 2003)

The Guardian Anti-war
This weekend will be a crucial opportunity – perhaps the last one – to try to save Mr Blair, and more importantly the country, from the error of supporting a misjudged US approach towards the Iraqi regime. (14 February 2003)

The Independent Anti-war
Britain may be only hours from war, and it is a war that has not been sanctioned by the international community. This was not the outcome that this newspaper sought. Far from it. We hoped for the peaceful disarmament of Iraq, accomplished through diplomacy. (18 March 2003).

--------------------------------------

[font=Times New Roman]In the past year the forces against the Operation Iraqi Freedom have been proven right, just as we are correct now. No more innocent blood for oil. Both Blair and Bush should be forced to pay the heaviest penalty for the illegal and unnecessary invasion and occupation of Iraq.

A heads up, if you guys don't work hard to rid us of these two leaders....
I'll just mention that I believe that the 18-26 year olds are the very first group to be involuntarily inducted.

Peace, the anti-Bush.
Teh Go0rfmeister
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Posted: 21st Mar 2004 22:16
Quote: "Our leaders can try to shift the blame on to the French for failing to secure a new UN resolution. That is too convenient. In reality, the Prime Minister and the US President have manufactured this war. (16 March 2003) "


i ahe the way the french were blamed for being cowards in all this. it seems 100% apparent to me that its more like Tony Blair being to scared to say no to bush, thus him being th ecoward, and the french presidant having the guts, as he sed "no" to bush and blair, knowing that it'd make France become unpopular

http://www.tinnedhead.tk under re-construction.
UnderLord
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Posted: 21st Mar 2004 22:28
Bush is like a child in a candy store. and the store is the world.

The search continues.

Current project - A space game
ReD_eYe
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Posted: 21st Mar 2004 22:30
Quote: " Bush is like a child in a candy store. and the store is the world."


so he's buying everything he can afford and then when he runs out of pocket money he's begging his mum to buy more sweeties for him? seems abit odd to me, then again i don't watch the news very often

In the beginning, the universe was created...
This made alot of people very angry and it has been widely regarded as a bad idea...
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CloseToPerfect
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Posted: 21st Mar 2004 23:13
"involuntarily inducted"?

heres my year ago quote,

All right, let me see if I understand the logic of this correctly. We are going to ignore the United Nations in order to make clear to Saddam Hussein that the United Nations cannot be ignored. We're going to wage war to preserve the UN's ability to avert war. The paramount principle is that the UN's word must be taken seriously, and if we have to subvert its word to guarantee that it is, then by gum, we will. Peace is too important not to take up arms to defend. Am I getting this right?

Further, if the only way to bring democracy to Iraq is to vitiate the democracy of the Security Council, then we are honor-bound to do that too, because democracy, as we define it, is too important to be stopped by a little thing like democracy as they define it.

Also, in dealing with a man who brooks no dissension at home, we cannot afford dissension among ourselves. We must speak with one voice against Saddam Hussein's failure to allow opposing voices to be heard. We are sending our gathered might to the Persian Gulf to make the point that might does not make right, as Saddam Hussein seems to think it does. And we are twisting the arms of the opposition until it agrees to let us oust a regime that twists the arms of the opposition. We cannot leave in power a dictator who ignores his own people. And if our people, and people elsewhere in the world, fail to understand that, then we have no choice but to ignore them.

Listen. Don't misunderstand. I think it is a good thing that the members of the Bush administration seem to have been reading Lewis Carroll. I only wish someone had pointed out that "Alice in Wonderland" and "Through the Looking Glass" are meditations on paradox and puzzle and illogic and on the strangeness of things, not templates for foreign policy. It is amusing for the Mad Hatter to say something like, `We must make war on him because he is a threat to peace,' but not amusing for someone who actually commands an army to say that.

As a collector of laughable arguments, I'd be enjoying all this were it not for the fact that I know--we all know--that lives are going to be lost in what amounts to a freak, circular reasoning accident.



PETER FREUNDLICH: NPR - March 13, 2003

RGT may be gone but the best DBP forum is still alive and kicking, check it out.
http://www.dannywartnaby.co.uk/rgt/
TheAbomb12
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Posted: 21st Mar 2004 23:17


copyied, pasted, saved

Amist the Blue Skies...
HZence
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Posted: 21st Mar 2004 23:38 Edited at: 21st Mar 2004 23:38
Quote: "No more innocent blood for oil."


Though I agree with you there, the fact that we are there primarily for cheap (or free oil) is debatable, as I'm sure you'll find out as this thread advances.

To the Americans: In my opinion, Democracy is a good system. However, before we go around destroying totalitarian states and establishing mini-Americas in their places, we should look within the bounds of our own country. Technically, we don't even have a democracy. We have a republic. We don't choose who will be president, our "representatives" (a.k.a. the Electoral College) do. Theoretically our votes influence the verdict of our state, but at the moment I am seriously doubting such influence.

Sorry to ramble, it just kind of pisses me off.


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DarkSin
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Posted: 21st Mar 2004 23:51
eehhh err can we sorrta keep off politics here? I have just forced myself not to reply with my political views (where as i most commonly throw them at anyone and everyone). I would prefer it if we kept this forum clear of political views so as to keep eachother from flame fests and such .


TheAbomb12
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Posted: 22nd Mar 2004 00:33 Edited at: 22nd Mar 2004 00:33
Your right HZence, we don't have a democracy, we have a republic.
And a republic fueled by capatialism. Right now, im not to fond of capitalism. Not because capitalism on its surface is bad; but because of the values it imposes on people are often misused. Our very lively hood is intertwined by not only government officials, but major companies and corporations. While some companies are better then others; there is a standing unoffical value (a sideeffect of capatialism) that money is the most important thing; sometimes even more important then people themselves. And when the companies also influence the government as well, thier dicisions are often based on the well being of the major corporations.

On top of this, not enough people excerise thier already limited power to choose thier representative; as a result, the representatives in power are those a vast majority do not agree with.

But we deserve every bit of govermntal misfortune...

Amist the Blue Skies...
Mattman
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Posted: 22nd Mar 2004 00:37
DarkSin:

As long as we keep it nice and clean, hopefully we can keep it more of a debate not a flame fest

We do have a republic though, not a democracy
Night Giant
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Posted: 22nd Mar 2004 00:47
and i also don't believe we have a pure capitilism. if we did there would be no social security, no public goods/utilities, etc. i believe it is actually a market socialist system.

also, it is very true that "peace is too important not to take up arms to defend". the difference between sadaam and the people who take him out is that sadaam was a threat to innocents, the american and coalition forces were not. in the immense irony of this universe, violence and war is often the only way to ensure peace. as thomas jefferson said "the teeth of freedom are cut on the rifle". and "to ensure peace you must prepare for war". both very true.

oh, wow. insignificantpunks.cjb.net. we like orange treble clef notes, just for future reference.

no: website for progs yet.
TheAbomb12
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Posted: 22nd Mar 2004 01:25
Quote: "and i also don't believe we have a pure capitilism. if we did there would be no social security, no public goods/utilities, etc. i believe it is actually a market socialist system. "


Yes this is true. We do have a socialist attitude to a certain degree. We encourage children that all people are the same (but different); Giving, sharing is caring, etc.

Amist the Blue Skies...
heartbone
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Posted: 22nd Mar 2004 19:15
Since it appears that some of you are using your computer to saving information, here's some.



The 'unlawful use of force' is the key phrase.
It's still not good form to say who the real terrorists are.
Maybe by next year.

Peace, the anti-Bush.
heartbone
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Posted: 22nd Mar 2004 19:21
You are correct NightGiant and TheAbomb12, there is no such thing as a purely capitalistic or socialistic system. The old Soviet Union had rubles (capitalist tool) and the UK/USA have taxes and insurance (socialist tools).

Peace, the anti-Bush.
TheAbomb12
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Posted: 22nd Mar 2004 19:23
It goes both ways...

Saddam is a terrorist...

Bush is perhaps a terrorist (according to definition above)

Amist the Blue Skies...
HZence
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Posted: 22nd Mar 2004 23:49
Bush is more than just a terrorist. It's seems like he's trying to do as much damage as possible before he gets booted out of office, whether it be in eight months or four years. Take the patriot act for example. What a load of crap.


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zircher
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2004 01:02 Edited at: 23rd Mar 2004 01:02
Quote: "The Herald Anti-war
The Herald has argued consistently against any war that does not have the backing of the international community as set out in a fresh UN resolution. (18 March 2003)
"


I just love that quote because it is so freaking wrong.

As of January 16, 2004 thirty five countries, in addition to the United States, have contributed troops to ongoing stability operations in Iraq. These 34 are Albania, Australia, Azerbaijan, Bulgaria, Canada, the Czech Republic, Denmark, the Dominican Republic, El Salvador, Estonia, Georgia, Honduras, Hungary, Italy, Japan, Kazakhstan, Latvia, Lithuania, Macedonia, Moldova, Mongolia, the Netherlands, New Zealand, Nicaragua, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Thailand, the Philippines, Romania, Slovakia, South Korea, Spain, Ukraine and the United Kingdom.

The one thing you will never have is credibility as long as you post head-in-the-sand comments like The Herald.
--
TAZ

Andy Igoe
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2004 17:59
Ahhh a political rant, where we all get to impose our views on others and take no notice of everyone elses view in the vein believe we will convert people to our cause.

In that case let me state my view whilst completely ignoring the rest of you:

Bush & Blair should be tried as war criminals in an international court in a manner akin to the Nurenburg trials for crimes against humanity.

Blair should be tried for ordering the murder of Dr Kelly.

Blair, assuming he is correctly found guilty of treason, should receive the British penalty for the crime: Hanging.

-*-


It saddens me greatly that a genuinely new kind of leader in the opposition party is no longer in charge, with the departure of Ian Duncan Smith we now have this Michael Howard guy, or perhaps it would be more correct to call him Blair Jnr. Or the "Blue Blair".

Unfortunately this change means I shall not be able to express my desire to get rid of Blair in the next elections due to the lack of an alternative. My principles say I should vote against Blair as a mediochre means of punishment for his crimes, sadly, my realism tells me Howard is just as evil without yet having had the opportunity to prove so.


God created the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.
haggisman
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2004 18:08
This maybe stating the obvious Andy, but there are more than 2 politcal parites in the UK.

Defying the convention of an upright avatar since 1985
zircher
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2004 18:25 Edited at: 23rd Mar 2004 18:29
Quote: "Ahhh a political rant, where we all get to impose our views on others and take no notice of everyone elses view in the vein believe we will convert people to our cause."


Heartbone and I have been playing the game for some time, but I have no idea who is ahead on points. He's scored quite a few on the quantity side. I like to think I've earned points in quality by expressing rational and factual replies.

In reality, the score is probably zero to zero.
--
TAZ

Fun fact: more Americans die every day from heart disease than have died in a year of war with Iraq. If some patriot wants to really save thousands of Americans, they should launch a war on poor eating and exercise habits.

zircher
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2004 18:42
Fun conspiracy theory: Do you all think Israel is trying to provoke Hammas to attack the US so that the US will in turn invade Palastine? Our government does tend to knee-jerk responses.

I can imagine that Israel is feeling that it is losing the war on terror and they may be desperate/bold enough to try something like that. If so, it's a plan that could easily backfire. I wouldn't want to roll those dice.
--
TAZ

Jeku
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2004 19:25 Edited at: 23rd Mar 2004 19:25
Whenever I see heartbone's name I think it will either be an anti-war or anti-business thread

@zircher - Nice fact about heart disease!

All I can say is I'm glad the allies went into Iraq and ripped Sodamn Insane out of there. Most of us can't speak for them because we have a nice, warm bed to snuggle into at night while they had to live in fear of what their dictator may do. Some of us cry "no more blood for oil"-- but we can't know what it's like to have lived there.

They didn't find weapons of mass destruction but they *did* find shallow graves with thousands of dead Kurds and other people under Saddam's regime.

David T
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2004 19:38
Quote: "As of January 16, 2004 thirty five countries, in addition to the United States, have contributed troops to ongoing stability operations in Iraq. These 34 are Albania, Australia, Azerbaijan, Bulgaria, Canada, the Czech Republic, Denmark, the Dominican Republic, El Salvador, Estonia, Georgia, Honduras, Hungary, Italy, Japan, Kazakhstan, Latvia, Lithuania, Macedonia, Moldova, Mongolia, the Netherlands, New Zealand, Nicaragua, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Thailand, the Philippines, Romania, Slovakia, South Korea, Spain, Ukraine and the United Kingdom."



My main problem with the war is that we've been drawn into somebody's elses problem. Before the Iraw war, al-Qaedea (sp?) had dnoe nothing to us. Now, after, they blow up our embassy in Turkry with more to come.

Prime examples are the recent Spanish terror attacks. Spain's now thinking of puling out troops.

Another factor is that list above may look large but comtains alot of very small countries. Moldova's not exactly a superpower :p

"To do is to be" - Descartes
"To be is to do" - Voltaire
"Do be do be do" - Frank Sinatra
heartbone
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2004 20:19
Quote: "Jeku: "Whenever I see heartbone's name I think it will either be an anti-war or anti-business thread.""


Here in America I'm afraid that to a great extent that war = business. For example for the past few years (as an electrical engineer) I can't find any jobs that aren't involved in the making of destructive weapons. Working to create weapons systems is such bad karma that I'd rather be a broke school teacher.


Quote: "Zircher: "Heartbone and I have been playing the game for some time, but I have no idea who is ahead on points. He's scored quite a few on the quantity side. I like to think I've earned points in quality by expressing rational and factual replies.""


I think that you know it's not a game, and I think we are on the same team.

Peace, the anti-Bush.
zircher
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2004 20:36
True, but the message of support is loud and clear. Even Canada, which had been very vocal on anti-war issues sent people.

To say that there was no backing from the international community is to jerk the uninformed masses by their strings and is a slap in the face of those nations that were brave enough to care.
--
TAZ

Interesting thought, if this was the old Iraq, one us would be dead or in prison right now with the real possibility of our mothers, wives, sisters, or daughters being raped or killed. Did the coalition really do a bad thing by taking Sadaam out of power?

Neophyte
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2004 21:42
@zircher

"Did the coalition really do a bad thing by taking Sadaam out of power?"

Possibly, yes. If what comes after Saddam is worse than him then, yes we did a bad thing.

There were reasons why G.W. snr. left him in power and one of them was that he was probably the better alternative to what could possibly come in his wake. There were major fears that a muslim theocracy would spring up since the majority of the muslim half of the population are shiitte muslims. The exact same denomination that Iran(which is pretty much our mortal enemy, and has been since the 1979 Islamic revolution) is composed of. If a theocracy resulted, our geopolitical strength would be seriously jeopordized as the combined oil resourced of Iran and Iraq would carry serious economic weight that could easily be manipulated against us to severly damage our economy. The formation of OPEC and the supply controls that they subsequetial imposed in the early 70s sent our economy plummeting into a recession. It has always been the fear that they would do it again if we didn't have them under our thumb or on our side in someway(Notice, how all of the major oil producing countries in that region are repressive dictatorships or monoarchies that could be overthrown if the right support were given to dissidents?).

There is also the thorny issue of the Kurds and their desire for independence. The Kurds that live in the north of Iraq want not only the territory that they currently reside in, but a sizeable chunk of southern Turkey as well(the most resource laden part IIRC). Turkey, a NATO member, is extremely nervous about any Kurdish independence movements near its borders and with good justification. The Kurds are armed and they aren't too shy about using what they've got. They aren't a significant military power, but if they can get a stable region to themselves there could be serious trouble along the border of Turkey. Its no surprise that when the Kurds made a move for independence due to G.W. snr's urging, they were quietly betrayed by a sudden lack of any airforce enforcement of the no-fly zones. Thus allowing Saddam to handily crush a resistance movement that may well have overthrown them.

The last remaining faction in Iraq is the Sunni Muslims. A denomination that Saddam is a part of, and is the favored segement of the population. They are the most secular and moderate out of all the different factions and probably the original reason we decided to support Saddam in the first place. Now that we've invaded and disposed their benifactor, I don't think we are going to have an easy time winning them over to our side. Saddam may have been a murderous Son of a B*tch, but you don't become ruler of a country by making enemies out of everyone. He created a lot of factories in certain Sunni dominated cities that provided jobs and a comfortable life for the residents there. There are reports that they aren't too pleased to be unemployed and without power or food.

The question now, isn't whether war was justified. Its too late for that. Its whether G.W. jnr. and team have what it takes to pull off this whole democracy thing in Iraq. Judging by the recent disaster that is now known as Afghanistan, it's not looking too good.
Jeku
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2004 21:49
Quote: ""Did the coalition really do a bad thing by taking Sadaam out of power?"

Possibly, yes. If what comes after Saddam is worse than him then, yes we did a bad thing. "


If we all lived by a fear of a "will the next guy be worse" mantra we would not progress as a society.

If what comes after Saddam is worse (human rights, threat, etc.), then the allies should take care of it if that happens.

David T
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2004 23:08
Quote: "Fun fact: more Americans die every day from heart disease than have died in a year of war with Iraq. If some patriot wants to really save thousands of Americans, they should launch a war on poor eating and exercise habits."


I'm sure you'd feel differently if a relative of yours was killed.

It's easy to say far more people are killed by car crashes every day worldwide than the 4,000 odd who died on 11th September 2001.

But, if anybody made such a remark they'd probably be flamed to a cinder.

"To do is to be" - Descartes
"To be is to do" - Voltaire
"Do be do be do" - Frank Sinatra
zircher
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Posted: 24th Mar 2004 00:40 Edited at: 24th Mar 2004 00:51
Quote: "I'm sure you'd feel differently if a relative of yours was killed."


You're right.

My mother died of a heart attack. My friend's wife was killed in a terrorist attack. (That effectively killed my friendship with him as well since he quit his job and moved away trying to sever all ties he had from that time.)

While I grieve the loss of my mother, I wish great harm and suffering on all terrorists.
--
TAZ

[Sorry for the edits, too many typos...]

HZence
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Posted: 24th Mar 2004 05:06 Edited at: 24th Mar 2004 05:06
It doesn't matter what has affected your life. We are sentient creatures, and we should learn to control our emotions and not be controlled by them.

...

I'm going to get flamed to hell for that.


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Mattman
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Posted: 24th Mar 2004 05:36
Uh, ever hear of depression? Life's not that easy to deal with, I suffer from depression I think, feels like it.
HZence
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Posted: 24th Mar 2004 06:19
Quote: "I suffer from depression I think, feels like it."


You'll probably get mad at me for this too, but you're not unique in that. I think I've suffered from it too. In fact, most teenagers go through that faze. It's caused by a hormonal inbalance and is especially evident during puberty, to the best of my knowledge.

Someone shoot that down if it's wrong.


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Posted: 24th Mar 2004 06:27
@Jeku

"If we all lived by a fear of a "will the next guy be worse" mantra we would not progress as a society."

True. But we can't go around pretending to be superman either. There are limits to what we can accomplish and sometimes we would only make things worse by interfering. Remember Vietnam?

"If what comes after Saddam is worse (human rights, threat, etc.), then the allies should take care of it if that happens"

I don't share your optimism. The cost for this little operation is already growing to obscene proportions. Our dollor is suffering as a result already and I'm not too hot about the taxes that are going to be necessary to fund this war, let alone another one. We don't even have enough troops to match the current crop for the next rotation. We are spreading our resources thin. Need I remind you what happened to Rome when it did that?
DarkSin
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Posted: 24th Mar 2004 06:53 Edited at: 24th Mar 2004 06:55
Quote: "We are spreading our resources thin. Need I remind you what happened to Rome when it did that?"


Every country falls at one point or another... when america falls itll just be an opening for me & The Coding Area to battle it out for world domination .


TheAbomb12
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Posted: 24th Mar 2004 06:54 Edited at: 24th Mar 2004 06:58
Quote: "Need I remind you what happened to Rome when it did that?"


Good point, infact I think the US is on its downfall after it has reached it zenith (high point). I believe there have been several scientist that anylize children stories or lituture from ancient times. They noticed that there was a trend in how as the morals of the stories changed the outcome of the society changed. Eventually, the morals of the stories led to the eventual decay of the society; a trend, the scientists say, that is starting to appear in children books and stories of the US.

Whatever the case with the stories, I do notice that the US is suffering from economy issues, issues while not as severe yet, parellel in nature to that of the decline of Rome.

Quote: "We are spreading our resources thin."


this is another parrellel to the decline of Rome.

However, Unlike rome, the US is Geographically Isolated from any other Major military that would be willing to take us on. Thats why I have a feeling that eventually in the future(I don't know why or how) the US will be fragmented from within .

Amist the Blue Skies...
bitJericho
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Posted: 24th Mar 2004 08:07
canada is always a threat

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Night Giant
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Joined: 26th Jul 2003
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Posted: 24th Mar 2004 17:24 Edited at: 24th Mar 2004 17:30
while the u.s. is geographically isolated, that is barely a concern now-a-days. at least not like it was centuries ago. today you can get a person just about anywhere inside of a day or two, and the same goes for missiles, so i don't geographic isolation will help keep us from being invaded much longer (not that i think we're going to be invaded, but just the geographic isolation is not going to be an aegis anymore).

Quote: "Thats why I have a feeling that eventually in the future(I don't know why or how) the US will be fragmented from within ."

if anyone's ever listened or watched bill o'reilly, he is saying something very similar. he is always talking about a "culture war", between the secularists and the non-secularists, between the gay-rights people and the no-gay-rights people, etc, etc,. he seems to be right too, there are lot of cultural issues that are causing a great ruckus in this country, and if people get heated enough about it it could spell danger for the future stability of this nation. it's as if for some reason the year two thousand heralded an enourmous culture clash in the states. weird.

oh, wow. insignificantpunks.cjb.net. we like orange treble clef notes, just for future reference.

no: website for progs yet.
TheAbomb12
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Joined: 14th Aug 2003
Location: Amist the blue skies...
Posted: 24th Mar 2004 18:34
I don't know,

The culture clashes in the 50s-70s where much MUC greater and we still havent fallen apart.

In the 50s, African-Americans were protesting their civil rights. At first no one listened but then as non violent-protestors started getting attacked the entire country took notice. The local Police would unleash water cannons on anyone in the crowd and let loose vicious attack dogs. It wasn't long before some Whites where marching along side the Black Protestors.

Not only this, but in the 60's vietnam started. It was unpopular and hated by almost everyone in the public. The Height of the civil rights movement and anti-war protests met at around the same period.

Im surprized that the country didn't rip itself apart during this period. While I think the country will be fragmented from within, I think it will take emotions much greater to do so.

Quote: "at least not like it was centuries ago. today you can get a person just about anywhere inside of a day or two, "


keyword, person. People is a different issue, and enough people to invade a country, even more of a problem. Russia had the technonogy to invade america 1 or 2 decades ago, but now, no-one has the technology or funding to transport a large combat unit into the continetial US. Maybe if you went in through canada and attacked from the north, but still, no one has the tech or money to transport enough troops.

Quote: "and the same goes for missiles,"

what kind of missles? nukes?

Someone would need alot of missils to incapacitate our forces.
In anycase we could shoot down most conventional missles.

Amist the Blue Skies...
Andy Igoe
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Joined: 6th Oct 2002
Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 25th Mar 2004 04:43
"One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter."

That line is from a James Bond film, but it actually makes a great deal of sense and is something I believe we should always keep in mind when debating terrorism.

Anyway the real issue for me is whether my country is now more at risk of terrorism than before the war.

Before Iraq terrorism in England was the realm of the IRA. On the emerald island itself both IRA and provo terrorism continued, but that is a far cry away from my life her in the arms of Brittania.

The IRA has in recent years become very benign, officially ending hostilities with the Good Friday agreement although the REAL-IRA continued an offensive it was just a small splinter cell and poorly funded, most of it's activities where constrained to Ireland.

England was not at risk. "Bikini Black Alpha" as they'd say in the army.

After the war the picture is a little different. There still isn't any IRA activity this side of the Irish sea, but now we've upset a rather large number of other people instead. Is it 75% of the world that are Muslim?

Whilst the Iraq war was not the 4th crusade many strict Muslims and Fundamentalists do not see it that way and perseive the American-led invasion of Iraq as a titanic West v's Middle East struggle.

We've certainly upped recruitment to fundamentalist organisations, globally increased Arab sympathy with anti-Western sentiments, and put ourself in a firing line that was previously only aimed at America.

Nothing good has come out of Iraq for England, Great Britain, or the Commonwealth nations.

All we have gained is a renewed bond with a nation that is diametrically opposed to British interests in Europe.

War in Iraq effectively put us 10 years backwards in becoming a super power again. Perhaps it might be a good thing to remain "The 53rd State" a little longer anyway, that however, is a totally different argument.

Here's an interesting thought:
Planned budget cuts bring the current British army [125,000 soldiers] down to 30,000 full time front line soldiers. With UN committments alone this meens national service will probably come back. Add on NATO obligations: policing Germany; Ireland; Afghanistan; and Iraq and the next generation will be looking at a solid two years service before we've even put a soldier in training on the homeland.


God created the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.

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