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Geek Culture / Atlas Shrugged [NO SPOILERS]

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John H
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Posted: 25th Mar 2004 22:19
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For those of you who have read this AMAZING book, I would like to hear some opinions on it. Im currently on page 410 for my econmices course and simply WOW. Its so moving.

Anyone else read it? DONT POST ANYTHING ABOUT THE STORY!!! JUST YOUR OPINIONS!!

RPGamer


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Peter H
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Posted: 25th Mar 2004 22:30
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oh! oh! guess what! at the end!!!....... no just joking...

You know, when i see an old lady slip and fall on the side walk, my first instinct is to luagh, but then i think, what if i where an ant? and she fell on me, it just doesn't seem so funny anymore.
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Dazzag
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Posted: 25th Mar 2004 22:34
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Whats it about?

Just to sprice things up slightly, I'm currently reading Jennifer Government, and Kil'n People (without the ' if you aren't in GB. They thought it would be a clever addition apparently). Any takers?

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
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Damokles
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Posted: 25th Mar 2004 22:42
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Quote: "Whats it about?"

Yeah, what is it about ? is it that good ?

For now I'm reading a translation that is really close to the original "Homer's Iliad". Almost impossible to understand, but I won't give up.

- Stand clear of the closing doors -
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Dazzag
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Posted: 25th Mar 2004 22:57 Edited at: 25th Mar 2004 22:59
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Just looked it up. Been around a while (1957). And has some major praise : Atlas Shrugged is the "second most influential book for Americans today" after the Bible, according to a joint survey conducted by the Library of Congress and the Book of the Month Club.

Due to my legendary attention span I need further explanation of what it's about though. Too much gumph on the web.

Quick explanation of the books I'm reading:
Kil'n people : Set in the future. Basically you can xerox a copy of yourself. Send out like a couple of low class 'roxs to do the easy work, such as shopping, or errands, and a couple of high class ones for things such as your paying job. You then stay at home (and keep fit to live longer), then upload the memories when they come home at the end of the day, then die after 24 hours (and you chuck them in the rubbish). Most clever book.

Jennifer Government : Another future one where business rules. Basically USA is the world apart from parts of Europe. Set in USA (australian territories - ie. Australia), with a bloke called Hack Nike. Basically everyone's surname is their company name. Rather amusing book, with him (accidenticallyish) employed to kill off a few people who buy Nike's new trainer (to get sales way up). Nike think even if they are found out they will only have to pay a few million (in fines) out of the billions of profits made from the venture (one pair sells for about $2500, and costs $0.85 to make). Hack then subcontracts out to the police, who in turn subcontract out to the NRA. Aha. And then it gets amusing, with Jennifer Government (guess who she works for?) chasing the bad guys after getting funding from one of the dead girl's parents (he sells his house). Very interesting book....

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
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Peter H
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Posted: 25th Mar 2004 23:03
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i read the Aenid... (long gory book written by some old greek dude...)

You know, when i see an old lady slip and fall on the side walk, my first instinct is to luagh, but then i think, what if i where an ant? and she fell on me, it just doesn't seem so funny anymore.
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John H
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Posted: 25th Mar 2004 23:10
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Well you really wouldnt get anything out of Atlas Shrugged if you havent taken even a basic economics course. But something in the book called the 'Equalization Oppertunity Act' which forces all companies to have an equal chance in the competition in the market (very...VERY bad) is just like whats happening now with the lawsuit against Microsoft. Its always the little weiners who cant do anything on their own so they have to whine to the government that life is too hard and make it easier for them.


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Ian T
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Posted: 26th Mar 2004 00:22 Edited at: 26th Mar 2004 00:25
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I think Microsoft deserves what they're getting

Btw, I'm reading... The Merchants' War, A Dragon's Doom (gore, huge battles... light fluff), and To Ride Hell's Chasm (good, serious fantasy).

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MicroMan
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Posted: 26th Mar 2004 05:46
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"Atlas Shrugged" was written by a weird russian philosopher named Ayn Rand http://www.iep.utm.edu/r/rand.htm.

"Self interest rightly understood, according to Rand, is to see oneself as an end in oneself. That is to say that one's own life and happiness are one's highest values, and that one does not exist as a servant or slave to the interests of others. Nor do others exist as servants or slaves to one's own interests. Each person's own life and happiness is his ultimate end. Self interest rightly understood also entails self-responsibility: one's life is one's own, and so is the responsibility for sustaining and enhancing it. It is up to each of us to determine what values our lives require, how best to achieve those values, and to act to achieve those values."

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They SAID that given enough time a million monkeys with typewriters could recreate the collected works of William Shakespeare... Internet sure proved them wrong.
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Neophyte
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Posted: 26th Mar 2004 21:35
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I haven't read Atlas Shrugged only one of Any Rand's works "The Virture of Selfishness", so I can only comment on what I've heard from others. To sum up: Uber-Capitalists good, perfect, beautiful - Alturist bad, evil, ugly, worthless. That is basically what goes on in a little over a thousand pages. All of the characters are black and white representations of good and evil with no shades of gray in between.

I was tempted to read it at one point but I realized that I'd be wasting precious moments of my life that I'd never get back. And over a thousand pages is a lot of moments.

But something else caught my eye here:
" Im currently on page 410 for my econmices course and simply WOW. "

Why exactly are you reading this book for an economics course? It doesn't having on bearing on reality whatsoever. None of the events in the book occur in real life. They are all the result of one extremist's viewpoint of the world.

"Well you really wouldnt get anything out of Atlas Shrugged if you havent taken even a basic economics course."

I've taken a basic ecomonics course and I've researched economic topics before.

"But something in the book called the 'Equalization Oppertunity Act' which forces all companies to have an equal chance in the competition in the market (very...VERY bad) is just like whats happening now with the lawsuit against Microsoft."

Err...how? There is no such thing as an Equalization Oppertunity Act. At least not here there isn't. There is anti-trust laws but those differ from what you describe in a few key and important points. Even if there was though how is that a (very...VERY bad) thing? What are you basing this opinion on? Please tell me it isn't just Ann Rand's book.

" Its always the little weiners who cant do anything on their own so they have to whine to the government that life is too hard and make it easier for them."

That's some seriously spiteful rhetoric RPGamer. Not everyone who seeks restrictions on the market is a "little weiner". Were the miners in the 1920s who went on strike "little weiner"s because they didn't want to die at the age of 30 from the coal dust in their lungs?
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empty
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Posted: 26th Mar 2004 23:10 Edited at: 26th Mar 2004 23:19
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Quote: "Well you really wouldnt get anything out of Atlas Shrugged if you havent taken even a basic economics course."

"Objectivism" is a very extreme point of view.
In my opinion more important than fundamental knowledge of econimics is to have more than a slight idea of Russian's younger history in general and the October Revolution 1917 in particular and connect it with Ayn Rand's biography.
It's like some who's lived in a red room for their first twenty years, gets into a blue room and thinks that everyone should live in blue rooms because iT seems to be much better.

Me, I'll sit and write this love song as I all too seldom do
build a little fire this midnight. It's good to be back home with you.
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Neophyte
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Posted: 27th Mar 2004 07:50
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@empty

"It's like some who's lived in a red room for their first twenty years, gets into a blue room and thinks that everyone should live in blue rooms because iT seems to be much better."

Excellent analogy. I couldn't have put it better myself.
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empty
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Posted: 28th Mar 2004 00:48
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@Neophyte
Thanks.
Although I shouldn't post when I'm tired and in hurry (forgot words, commas, structure and stuff).

Me, I'll sit and write this love song as I all too seldom do
build a little fire this midnight. It's good to be back home with you.
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jrowe
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Posted: 28th Mar 2004 17:46
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DarkWing Duck: The Aeneid was written by Virgil, a Roman (not greek).


For Fathers and Sons who enjoy wholy spirits.
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John H
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Posted: 28th Mar 2004 17:59
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Quote: "Err...how? There is no such thing as an Equalization Oppertunity Act. At least not here there isn't. There is anti-trust laws but those differ from what you describe in a few key and important points. Even if there was though how is that a (very...VERY bad) thing? What are you basing this opinion on? Please tell me it isn't just Ann Rand's book."


I meant that in the book is quite like whats happening with M$. The equilization oppertunity act states that all companies in the economy must have an equal chance in competition. This IS very..very bad. In a free market economy, the competition should be left be. If the little guy cant compete with Bill Gates, stop bitching to the governement to make life easier. Im compairing the current real life situation to that in this book, which in fact is incredibly similiar. Those who cant compete with the big companies who have earned their money try to get the goverenment to step and and pass this law stating that they have to give them help in the competition.

I hope your seeing my relationship here...


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Neophyte
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Posted: 28th Mar 2004 22:54
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@RPGamer

" I meant that in the book is quite like whats happening with M$. The equilization oppertunity act states that all companies in the economy must have an equal chance in competition."

That's not what is happening to microsoft at all. The rules don't state that everyone has to have an equal chance. Only that there be a chance. Anti-monoply laws don't garuntee that I could start my own CPU line and be competive with Intel.

" This IS very..very bad. In a free market economy, the competition should be left be."

Free market economies are a fantasy. They have never existed in any industrial society on the face of this earth. Ever. I always find it highly amusing when people speak authoritatively on the proper behavior of something that doesn't exist. They are my favorite subject.

"If the little guy cant compete with Bill Gates, stop bitching to the governement to make life easier."

Why? Do you have any reason to back this up or just emotions.

" Those who cant compete with the big companies who have earned their money try to get the goverenment to step and and pass this law stating that they have to give them help in the competition."

Again, why? What benifit does society have in allowing monopolies to exist?
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Lord Ozzum
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Posted: 28th Mar 2004 22:58
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It's not society's benefit, people should just learn to compete, it's not a matter of what's fair for a majority, but what's fair for the person who actually does something. If you dn't like it, make something to compete. Otherewise, sit down and shut up.

You're just jealous cuz the voices don't talk to you!!!
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Neophyte
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Posted: 28th Mar 2004 23:32
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@Mr X

"It's not society's benefit, people should just learn to compete, it's not a matter of what's fair for a majority, but what's fair for the person who actually does something."

Why? People keep making emotional statements like this but they haven't stated any reasoning behind it at all. It is to society's benefit that anti-monopoly laws are enforced. If you want a good example of why then go read a U.S. history book and compare the late 1800s and early 1900s with today in both terms of economic prosperity and general health and education.

"If you dn't like it, make something to compete. "

The problem is you can't. When someone has a monopoly on something they can use all sorts of dirty tactics to force your product, no matter how superior it is, out of the market. Its happened time and time again. Hell, it even happens today(though not to the extent that it did in the old days)! Pick up a history book and read.
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Lord Ozzum
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Posted: 28th Mar 2004 23:39
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NOOOOO!!!! I hate history!!! I hate school!!!!!!!! I refuse!!!!!!!!

You're just jealous cuz the voices don't talk to you!!!
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Neophyte
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Posted: 28th Mar 2004 23:41
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@Mr X

"NOOOOO!!!! I hate history!!! I hate school!!!!!!!! I refuse!!!!!!!!"

Guess that would explain your opinion then. Oh, and:
Quote: "Multiple exclaimation marks are a sure sign of a diseased mind.
Terry Pratchet
"
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Lord Ozzum
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Posted: 28th Mar 2004 23:49
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I saw that on that cmc thing

You're just jealous cuz the voices don't talk to you!!!
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TheAbomb12
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Posted: 29th Mar 2004 01:14
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Ayn Rand is a capitalist in its highest form.

I havent read Atlas Shugged, but I have read Anthem. Intresting book that covers a few themes, but overall, I do not agree with the type of "ego" that Ayn is presenting...

Amist the Blue Skies...
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empty
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Posted: 29th Mar 2004 02:36 Edited at: 29th Mar 2004 02:40
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Quote: "In a free market economy, the competition should be left be. If the little guy cant compete with Bill Gates, stop bitching to the governement to make life easier"

There are several reasons why this wouldn't work to anyone's benefit. The most important one is, that if you want a totally free market economy, you'd need a world wide majority of people (and especially but not only managers, CEOs and presidents) with high ethical standards.
There are several reasons why a company can get monopolies. Even if they work on a completely legal basis, they might use morally questionable methods- not only against competitors but (and even worse) methods affecting their employees as well.
In short you'd need a world society that's rooted in extremely high moral and ethical values and principles. Problem is, there's no such society, there never was, and I'm bold enough to say, there will never be. And if there were, we have a pool of alternative ideas, other than objectivism, that would work as well or even better.
In fact, a free market not regulated by any governmental instances is dangerous to the society. We can get a slight idea of that even today. One of the biggest fears of any democratic government is a high rate of unemployment. Using these fears, a lot of big companies, have an enormous impact on our governments today. And applying the rules of a totally free market economy, they are right; if US American workers or European workers are too expensive, why not outsource production/development to Asia or India? It's a competition- a competition of work force.

Me, I'll sit and write this love song as I all too seldom do
build a little fire this midnight. It's good to be back home with you.
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