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DNAsoft
21
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Posted: 29th Mar 2004 21:33
Hi.
About when will the Update 6 be relased?
And what id updated.
and whats new.

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zircher
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Posted: 29th Mar 2004 21:40
Nothing official has been posted.
--
TAZ

DNAsoft
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Posted: 29th Mar 2004 21:49
Now that su*ks. I already think that they are sitting in their chairs and eating pies and drinking beer, taking mony from people who buy DBP and say it will be a better program in update 6. why cant i see any information about it. They should update their programs more often. Look the last update for DBC "12 dec. 2002" WOW now thats what i´m talking about. I bought all the programs that you can find from this site and i was thinking that it will be easier to make a game and there will be less bug in the formats but nooooo, everything SUCKS!!!!!. I´m not very happy whit DBP and whit (CSHOP, ActionReducer 3D and so on) all other programs.
????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????


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IanM
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Posted: 29th Mar 2004 21:58
Err ... yeah. Of course, they're all sat at home with a can in hand laughing at us all ... [/sarcasm]

http://developer.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=26804&b=1

*** Coming soon - Network Plug-in - Check my site for info ***
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Hamish McHaggis
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Posted: 29th Mar 2004 22:12
Quote: "I already think that they are sitting in their chairs and eating pies and drinking beer, taking mony from people who buy DBP and say it will be a better program in update 6."


Do you want another crummy bug-filled upgrade to complain about, or something that gets rid of the bugs and adds a few more features without any more bugs?

Trying is the first step towards faliure.
Athelon XP 1600+/Radeon 9600 Pro/256 RAM
DNAsoft
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Posted: 29th Mar 2004 22:23
No i don´t want that but i would be much happier to see the progress of the DBP and i think everybody will be hapier. Pictures, demos or somthing like that

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Rob K
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Posted: 29th Mar 2004 22:26
That's called DBDN and, rightly or wrongly, you have to pay to be a member.

Please have a look through the forum before you post threads like this, Lee Bamber posted a long feedback thread recently.

BlueGUI:Windows UI Plugin - All the power of the windows interface in your DBPro games. - Plus URL download, win dialogs.
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IanM
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Posted: 29th Mar 2004 22:28
Yes, it's included in my post

*** Coming soon - Network Plug-in - Check my site for info ***
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Peter H
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Posted: 29th Mar 2004 22:43
Quote: "No i don´t want that but i would be much happier to see the progress of the DBP and i think everybody will be hapier. Pictures, demos or somthing like that
"

if they take the time to make a bunch of demos and stuff they will have less time to work on the upgrade... and all the other stuff (FPSC?) ...

ooh ooh i got this great idea master yoda we could make a game! and the game's story line would be...
"Your wife is death. How? NO idea. But it is murder. REVENGE!!!!!!!!!"
OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 30th Mar 2004 01:36 Edited at: 30th Mar 2004 01:37
Another Moaning Minnie...
You'll just have to wait. Nothing more, nothing less.

Quote: " Look the last update for DBC "12 dec. 2002"

DB Classic is no being longer updated...


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Andy Igoe
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Posted: 30th Mar 2004 03:50
DBP update 5 can be used to make games, believe it or not.


God created the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.
The admiral
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Posted: 30th Mar 2004 06:39
lol dont be immature good things take time and to say things like they sit around doing nothing but eating is completly inccorect these guys have been working their butts off and they often work on the weekends as well.

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Dave J
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Posted: 30th Mar 2004 06:47
Quote: " I already think that they are sitting in their chairs and eating pies and drinking beer"


You just described the everyday Australian.


"Computers are useless they can only give you answers."
adr
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Posted: 30th Mar 2004 13:30
Or your average english university student

...and the rest is f-l-y
Andy Igoe
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Posted: 30th Mar 2004 15:41
Well Lee does LOOK like your typical Uni student!

'cept they eat crisps not pies. Cheaper.


God created the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.
DNAsoft
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Posted: 30th Mar 2004 16:35
Quote: " lol dont be immature good things take time "


Then why didn´t they make DBP a good and lessy bugy product at first palce.
Why do they think that now is the time to fix all the bugs.

Quote: "That's called DBDN and, rightly or wrongly, you have to pay to be a member"

Again you have to pay. All the time i have to pay, pay and pay.
Where is that DBDN or what is it.
And i have the right to be mad and say my opinion.

With internet thears no such danger that it will be over
OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 30th Mar 2004 16:39
Quote: "Why do they think that now is the time to fix all the bugs."

Yes, it would have saved time if it wasn't to start with - however, its better they are fixed now than leaving it isn't it ?

Quote: "And i have the right to be mad and say my opinion"

If its constructive then yes. Unfortunately it isn't.


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DNAsoft
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Posted: 30th Mar 2004 16:50
Quote: "Unfortunately it isn't"
nononönönpoafaf
ääääääBÖÖÖÖÖÖÖÖÖÖÖÖÖÖÖÖÖÖäääää I´m smart, i know everything.äänananananananananananananandnanadndnbana

I have payd a lot of mony and i´d like to see some work in progress at least. But no... now everybody are saying that i can´t to this and that or like whatever. CSHOP + DBP + DBC + ActionR 3D + gamespace + texture maker + geoscape 3D + some plugins for DBP = whats the price?

What i know is that i could buy a nice Žiguly or Volga ( <-- old Russian cars) for that money.

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adr
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Posted: 30th Mar 2004 17:52
Quote: "CSHOP + DBP + DBC + ActionR 3D + gamespace + texture maker + geoscape 3D + some plugins for DBP = whats the price?"


I don't know why some people are under the impression that
a) Game development is cheap
b) DBP Provides *Everything* that you'd ever need in one package

DBP is a programming language. So if you want to make models, you're gonna have to buy a modeller. If you want to make textures, you're going to have to buy an art package.

Admittedly, DBP is suffering from a couple of bugs but they are working on it. I'm *bursting* to get Upgrade v6 downloaded onto my machine. Seriously, I'm finding it difficult to wait But I know that bitching and whining about it certainly aren't going to speed things along....

chill the flip out.

...and the rest is f-l-y
Peter H
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Posted: 30th Mar 2004 17:56
Quote: "CSHOP + DBP + DBC + ActionR 3D + gamespace + texture maker + geoscape 3D + some plugins for DBP = whats the price?
"

do you realize that while you have all that stuff you sit there and complain and other people make good games with less? (E.G. roomwar with trial version!)

ooh ooh i got this great idea master yoda we could make a game! and the game's story line would be...
"Your wife is death. How? NO idea. But it is murder. REVENGE!!!!!!!!!"
Andy Igoe
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Posted: 30th Mar 2004 18:03
Quote: " i´d like to see some work in progress at least"

http://darkbasicpro.thegamecreators.com/?f=upgrade_5_2

There are very few bugs in DBP, there are a couple yes.

Should DBP have been released in the state it was in at first? No. I agree with you, but we are years beyond that now, get the update - change your editor to Twilight (http://www.eclipsedevelopment.co.uk/main.asp) and enjoy predominantly bug free game development in DBP.

Quote: "What i know is that i could buy a nice Žiguly or Volga ( <-- old Russian cars) for that money."


Buy a car for a few hundred pounds and you'll soon find out why it was only a few hundred pounds.


God created the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.
Andy Igoe
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Posted: 30th Mar 2004 18:13 Edited at: 30th Mar 2004 18:14
I just have to add more to this, sorry:

Whenever I start a game I use the CURRENT version of DBP and I stay with that version until the projects completion.

If you are waiting for a patch/update to wave a magic wand and fix your program then you are going to be dissapointed. What can patch 6 do that 5 cant?

At the moment, nothing. It isn't there, dont worry about it.

Focus on the tools you have to hand and you will be able to produce a good game.

Migrating code from one version of the language to another will frequently result in you having to make drastic changes. Just the subtelest difference, like the way Patch 5.2 handles transparencies, completely negated updating my Transfusion game from 4.1. If I had migrated Transfusion to 5.2 I would not have been happy at how it was optimised for 4.1 and would have completely rewritten the game again from scratch.

There is a lesson to be learned here:

Trust in what you have and what you can do now. Waiting for tommorow will only bring more complications and unexpected twists and then you'll be saying "where is update 7?".

Without wishing to deride TGC of course they are hyping up U6 well in advance of it's release. This is fairly standard capitalist practice, we call it "dangling a carrot". We've been hearing a lot about U6 for a long time, and how it will solve all our needs and woes, when we get that we'll be hearing a lot about U7 - but that wont make it appear any sooner.

What you have is a suite of very powerful tools:
CSHOP: A very good level design program, if a little geometric
DBP: A very powerful BASIC interface for DX
DBC: A bug free, albeit quite old, BASIC interface for DX
ActionR 3D: Never heard of this, sorry
gamespace: A relatively powerful model making program
texture maker: A relatively powerful texture making program
geoscape 3D: A simple landscape editor
some plugins for DBP: More power for DBP

In that list is everything you need to make a game apart from Sound Recorder that comes with Windows. What are you complaining about? It's all there.

I've produced games with far less tools than that!

My team are actively working on two new titles, here's our suite of tools:

DBP
Max6
3D Exploration / Deep Exploration
Paintshop Pro 7
CSHOP - which we dont use.

You seem to have far more software than us, and yet you still cannot do it?

What do you need somebody to come over and sit at the keyboard for you?

Sure, that can be arranged. Join a team that already has a programmer and provide media.


God created the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.
OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 30th Mar 2004 18:38
For my game, I use Visual Studio .Net 2004 (got a nice ring to it, dont you think ?), gameSpace (once), Doga L3 (spend around 5 minutes per craft), MS Paint (quite a bit) and Photoshop SE to convert my bitmaps to PNG's.


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BatVink
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Posted: 30th Mar 2004 18:40
Every language has bugs. The difference between a programmer and a good programmer is in part the ability to work around the bugs. If you can't do this, the same attitude will be reflected in your code and your ability to provide the most workable solution.

There are many ways to skin a cat:



BatVink (formerly StevieVee)
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Peter H
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Posted: 30th Mar 2004 19:06
Quote: "Doga L3 (spend around 5 minutes per craft), "

Goooooo Doga!!!

ooh ooh i got this great idea master yoda we could make a game! and the game's story line would be...
"Your wife is death. How? NO idea. But it is murder. REVENGE!!!!!!!!!"
zircher
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Posted: 30th Mar 2004 19:30
LOL, I prefer a catapult. But then, I like to get medieval.

To keep this slightly on topic: VirMin is being created with DBP 5.1, DoGA L3 (free), Metasequoia LE (free), MS Paint (free), MS Photo Editor (free with MS Office), and Sound Recorder (free).

http://www.geocities.com/tzircher/tcom_gallery.htm

I do have Milkshape 3D 1.7, trueSpace 4.3, Paintshop Pro 5.0, and other tools, but they were not needed for this project.
--
TAZ

Powersoft
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Posted: 30th Mar 2004 20:23
Lee (the DBprogramers closes thing to god) said that the FPSC is to be made in DBpro and they are going to update the program realese updates as the game progresses. Therefore the Db team working on that means the updates will be more powerful as it holds the ability to mkae even better progams

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DNAsoft
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Posted: 30th Mar 2004 20:26
ok, as i can see it is possible to greate a game with less tools and to work around the bugs. The problem is in me then but i only want a good level to my game and that is bad, DirectX is a good format for models and other stuff but its not for level. Lightmaping is good and makes the level beutiful, but makes my game slow and i hate when somthing is slow. BSP/PSV compiler or conventer( i have no fcking idea how they call it) sucks totaly. Half Life Hammer, i cant use, dont know how to use that and it uses some stupit file format called "WAD", But then again can someone teach me how to speed up my game, what formats to use, some tricks whith levels or can someone write or hawe a working BSP maker.

All help and information is welcomed????

i think this would help other users too, so all pros but your head together and you who is reading this message what have you done to speed the FPS up in you game?

I allso have 3DSMAX 6 if i can use it some way of making levels then the information is welcomed?

Im sorry about all the other stuff.

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Powersoft
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Posted: 30th Mar 2004 20:30
3ds Max 6? and you complained about the cost of everything else?

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DNAsoft
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Posted: 30th Mar 2004 20:33
it not mine. But my fried give it to me.

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Siege
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Posted: 30th Mar 2004 22:32 Edited at: 30th Mar 2004 22:34
Quote: "Now that su*ks. I already think that they are sitting in their chairs and eating pies and drinking beer, taking mony from people who buy DBP and say it will be a better program in update 6."


If the ppl in the crew who made dbp makes to meny updates with more stuff to fidel with, they will ONLY make more bugs, so you shuld watch your mouth bitch......hem!

If you didn't notice PROGRAMMING = TAKES TIME

Try think over why they havent released a new version, before you smack their heds with a baseball bat!

Enyway....
Quote: "I allso have 3DSMAX 6 if i can use it some way of making levels"

Why are u asking? How long have you been programming and modeling with 3dsmax???

My advice is:
Use 3dsmax 3.1 - 4
Minimum 1 year

I have used max 3.1r in one year and i know how to handel it, but i also have max 6, got it about 3 months now. I have tryed it out and there is alot of stuff AND changes you could dream of, you probably know your self or not!

If you are new in max try not to think of BIG games and so on, the idea will just end upp in a trash can!

SiegeDelux@:
DNAsoft
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Posted: 30th Mar 2004 22:46
Is it a big game to dream. FPS game, interesting level, some monsters and few guns. I haw made 2 years 2D games on Game Maker and AGS (adventure game studio) And made one 3D game and this is my second one, but little biger than the first one. But still Speed is my problem at the moment.

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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 30th Mar 2004 23:12
Use IanM's DBPro and Visual Studio for a large speed increase.


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Andy Igoe
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Posted: 31st Mar 2004 01:10
Quote: "DirectX is a good format for models and other stuff but its not for level. "


I gather you mean the .x object format.

You can load up your levels as .x or as .bsp, a matrix, or use the terrain commands.

.x provides ultimate flexibility. A hidden collision object provides blistering performance in collision detection, and segmenting your map into areas allows you to hide non-displayed parts of the map for even more speed.

.bsp automates what you can do with .x The speed gain is not as much (despite all the theory that it should be) but it is simpler. Use CShop to convert to BSP, converting a Max object just isnt going to work.

Matrixes look ugly and should not be considered by anyone other than a beginner. They are simple and easy to code, but you'll soon want to move on from them.

Terrains have potential but their implementation in DBPro isn't marvellous.

Those are the options, take your pick.


God created the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.
Tapewormz
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Posted: 31st Mar 2004 02:09
Well, all I can say is that it will be update number 6. That means there's been 5 more before it. Therefor they must be doing something... Don't forget that this is a small company, with a small user base. They're not microsoft, nor do they have the unlimited resources that microsoft has. So you can't expect the same kind of quality of service that you'd expect with their products. However, I think that the quality of services for TGC considering thier size, and audience are pretty good. I only paid 99$ US for a basic programming language... How much service can I expect for my measly 99$?

Quote: " Timesoft - Your wife is death. How? NO idea.
But it is murder. REVENGE!!!!!!!!!"

Hands down the funniest synopsis for a game ever. All your base are belong to us!
OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 31st Mar 2004 15:17 Edited at: 31st Mar 2004 16:42
Quote: "Matrixes look ugly and should not be considered by anyone other than a beginner."

I think they look okay - and you can do some very nice things with them too. Once terrains have the ability to set heights (like matricies), then I'll probably move over to them.


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DNAsoft
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Posted: 31st Mar 2004 15:46
good points you got there. But does somebody have some example games to download, where i can see something interesting or to have an idea.

Anyway more inf. is better.

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Van B
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Posted: 31st Mar 2004 16:20
Erm, you did'nt find the showcase with around 180 games on it then?

There's about 100 retro comp games, there's about 60 Alienware comp games, plus the other showcase uploads.

DBPro is perfectly capable as it is - the more advanced users here are hungry for patch6 because of it's added vertice and multitexturing commands, it's not directly a bug fix patch - we're awaiting all sorts of cool stuff, but Lee does'nt want to release anything that does'nt work fully - so perhaps you should be getting some practice instead of complaining about waiting for a patch that you won't reap the benefits from for ages.


Van-B


The nature of Monkey was irrepressible!.
Andy Igoe
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Posted: 31st Mar 2004 16:49
Quote: " But does somebody have some example games to download, "


[href]www.bansheestudios.com[/href]

Quote: "I think they [matrices] look okay "


I don't. Single textured, angular intersections, and not terribly fast.


God created the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.
OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 31st Mar 2004 17:05
You can multitexture them if your clever enough Its what I do in my Blox game...

The other advantage is that you can lower and raise points, plus its easy to get the ground height (intersect object can be a real pain to use).


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Rage_Matrix
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Posted: 31st Mar 2004 17:25
Quote: "3ds Max 6? and you complained about the cost of everything else?"

Quote: "it not mine. But my fried give it to me."


Uh-huh. Cough....warez.....cough.....

Seriously though, stop being a whiny little bitch and suck it down. You've got two choices....either work around the bugs like a proper programmer, or switch to something else like Blitz if its holding up development that much. Personally, I'm language neutral....I own Blitz3D and DBPro. I'm working on 3D content at the moment, so I'm not really all that worried....my content will work in both languages, as will the design. Either I start coding in DBPro and it works or I shrug, and do it in Blitz3D. Nobody forced you to buy all the stuff you did without doing a little research.
I bought DBPro knowing that there would be a few bugs because I spent some time with the demo and reading the Bugs forums. I don't see how bitching about it here is going to solve any of your problems. People have coded good games with far less. Perhaps you should too.

www.tronsoftware.co.uk
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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 31st Mar 2004 17:28
Brighton, eh ? At last someone whos nearby (more or less)...


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Andy Igoe
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Posted: 31st Mar 2004 17:38 Edited at: 31st Mar 2004 17:40
Quote: "You can multitexture them if your clever enough"


Compare a good matrix (for example my old Terrascape demo) to my LOD-Mesh terrain in Extranjero and - when you see it - my Scorched Earth style game. Matrixes are aethetically limited. Certainly a good programmer can make them better and more flexible than a beginner, but that's nothing to shout about.

Quote: "The other advantage is that you can lower and raise points,"


You mean THE advantage.

Quote: "plus its easy to get the ground height (intersect object can be a real pain to use)."


Here is an example of a 'standard' height function:



Here is the height command from TerraX-3, which is a procedural matrice-esque like system with a massive landscape with dynamically assigned independant LOD meshes and textures from a resource pool and features a full range of fail safes.



As you can see neither function is particularly complex and once written, it's written, and it's not as if you dont have to write your own height() command with a matrice anyway - if you are using a dynamic matrice (as most applications of a matrice would require).

Additionally .x terrains have the advantage of another command you can write yourself, lineOfSight().

As for mesh deformations, I put craters in my game by placing a crator object on the ground and I think that looks way better than adjusting the height of a matrice vertex anyway.

Sure in some applications, a remake of populous for instance, I would probably choose to use a matrice. However for most applications I see on these boards matrices are used for general purpose landscapes and it is my believe that .x terrains do this to a far greature visual standard and with far greater flexibility.

Of course, each to their own. I'm sure a very good programmer can create a better result with a matrice than I can using .x terrains, that's because i'm not a very good programmer - i'm somewhere in the middleground. What I do know is, I can get better results with .x than I can with a matrice and I think that would apply to many others here too if they're brave enough to make the leap.


God created the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.
Rage_Matrix
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Posted: 31st Mar 2004 17:38
TCA: Where are you, then?

www.tronsoftware.co.uk
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Van B
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Posted: 31st Mar 2004 18:06 Edited at: 31st Mar 2004 18:15
Matrices suck, .X landscapes are better - but right now memblock matrices get top billing - it's perfectly possible to make great looking terrains in DBPro using some reasonably simple code and a few textures. Just ask Kevil, Asylum Hunter, Hamish McHaggis, and myself among others. If you want to see some terrain examples then look no further than the work in progress board ('What's Van Upto?' topic for my own eye-candy).

Once we get easy vertice data access and multitexturing - matrices will quickly disapear back to where they belong (probably under that last pizza crust on Lee's desk).


Van-B


The nature of Monkey was irrepressible!.
OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 31st Mar 2004 18:14
No doubt most people would be able to get better results with .X. However, most people would find the intersect object a bit annoying to use, whereas GetGroundHeight is nice and easy.
Matricies dont look nice if the height of any four coordinates is too high, but apart from that you can get some pretty good stuff out of them.

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Siege
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Posted: 31st Mar 2004 22:58
Quote: "But does somebody have some example games to download"

There are a lot of exampels on the cd(dbp)! You should know!

SiegeDelux@:
DrakeX
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Posted: 1st Apr 2004 01:07
"most people would find the intersect object a bit annoying to use"

oh come on, you're a hardened programmer i've never seen you whine about anything.

OK, i was a bit conservative with my release date. predicted DBP P6 release date: Bjork 45, 3418

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Andy Igoe
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Posted: 1st Apr 2004 02:05
intersect object:
Give it object number - first set of co-ords, second set of co-ords. The returned number is the range between to two that intersects.

get ground height:
Give it matrix number - give it one set of co-ords. The returned number is the altitude.

Yes, a beginner will find get ground height easier but intersect object is not complex, however this discussion came about because I suggest that matrixes are the domain of beginners and that more experienced programmers will move on to .x terrain. I did, on your questioning it, expand this to say yes there are certain projects (a Populous clone for instance) where I would still consider using a matrix.

Is this the statement you are objecting too?

I don't think you can object to it, because it is right. Intersect Object is not a complex command to master, and once mastered opens many new doors in game programming - the fastest collision systems possible in DB, object to scenery interaction and even making a LineOfSight() command possible.

Compare the use of my height() function to the matrix command GetGroundHeight(), even less parameters.

If you are doing anything remotely impressive with a matrix then it is most probable (although there are exceptions to this) that you have a dynamic matrix and are therefor writting your own height command anyway!


God created the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.
Van B
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Posted: 1st Apr 2004 10:26
I've never used intersect object for anything, in fact I've never used a built-in collision command - I use interpolation to calculate ground collision, and every other collision in OIE in a variation on that which allows walls and solid structures. You often end up doing about 200 ground height checks per loop - intersect object would be too slow for that. The major benefit of using interpolation though is that you only need the data, so you could position trees or whatever without worrying about going outta bounds on a matrice or trying to impliment the object intersection method on an optimised (cut-up) terrain object(s). My terrain tends to be cut into 16x16 tile chunks, meaning a 256x256 tile matrice is actually 256 seperate objects - nice for optimising frame rates but a nightmare for collision detection.

If anyone would like to see an interpolated ground height function, there's a neat one in Kevils terrain demo over at the codebase.


Van-B


The nature of Monkey was irrepressible!.

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