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3 Dimensional Chat / DeleD's future functionality

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JeroenNL
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Posted: 1st Apr 2004 22:49
Hi there,

I'm am trying to determine what functionality I should add to DeleD in the future. What better way to get the answer than by asking users of DeleD? So here is the big question I have:

What would you like to see implemented in a future version of DeleD?

1. Constructive Solid Geometry
2. Plugins For Import/Export Functions
3. UV Mapping
4. More Lowpolygon Editing Functions
5. Lighting

Do remember that I will only be able to implement 1 or 2 of these within a reasonable amount of time (read: a few months) so please don't say I have to implement them all. Anyway, let me know so I can determine what to focus on next.

Use the free 3D modeller DeleD to get skilled in 3d editing! Visit http://www.delgine.com for more info.
MikeyP
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Posted: 1st Apr 2004 23:22
I think you should put in Lighting and also either UV Mapping or a built in export to BSP, this would save people time and also it will hopefully be more stable than having to use the DBP, X to bSP converter
guru of boredom
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Posted: 2nd Apr 2004 06:14
5 and 4

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HyTech Designs Sam
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Posted: 3rd Apr 2004 07:40
UV Mapping and being able to export BSP would be nice.

adr
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Posted: 3rd Apr 2004 12:02
I wouldn't bother with BSP just yet. As I understood it, Mike is working on some cool new Potential Visibility Set algorithms which can apply to native DBOs?

I'd say CSG and Lighting - do you mean you're planning or writing a lightmapper? If so, export to DBO so that we can have lightmapped DBO objects

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LordoFire
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Posted: 4th Apr 2004 06:34
I think 5 is a must. I really need some lighting! and 4 would be nice too...

When it comes to programing, I'm on fire!
Nazgul
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Posted: 6th Apr 2004 12:35 Edited at: 6th Apr 2004 12:46
I have not yet installed Deled editor, but I have hopes on it. Specially as supports x, and that's a format becoming widely supported by engines.

In general, for any engine (Irrlitch, DbPro, etc) I'd put number one priority that what you can't make with other available free tools. And that is lightmapping. So, first I suppose come lights. Some basic lighting (dunno if radiosity is more effort cost than standard lighting, sounds that yes) and the actual generation of the baked light/shadows tga (lightmap). And ability, support I mean, of uv channel 2. As you need it to assign to this second uv coords set, the tga, the actual lightmap.(while standard texture uvs are in old uv channel 1 ) Ultimate Unwrap supports this nicely, you can have a look at the only save crippled demo. But ultimate can't generate lights, nor lightmaps.

Indeed, the only tools for free I found, I could not make them work.

I would not worry that much about producing a BSP, it is too unclear if legally bsp format can be used legally. Some people say yes, som not. If you use routines from ID, then sure is not legal for comercial projects. If you use halflife BSP (there's already a free hl bsp compiler, the ZHLT tools) that's free. Even more you could add a map format (maybe map?) or whatever eats ZHLT tools.
But... IMHO is more uptodate, flexible and powerful just to use *.x format ability to use two uv channels, one for lightmaps. I'd priorize that.

Modelling can be done outside for free (Wings3d, Metasequoia, OpenFx, Anim8or, just to mention a few) .Uv mapping can be done with Wings, some yet keep the free copy of Lithunwrap, and Uvmapper classic(called beta too) is yet available. You can import a very complex mesh, usually much more complex than even very old and famous level editor can do. I worked in a company and trend preferred by many artist is work in his tool (Max, Maya.. ) and have a mel or maxscript export towards engine or editor. Big packages generate radiosity wonderful lightmaps, but go and search a lightmap generator totally free (comercial projects allowed, etc) You don't find it. Fsrad could be but you need to be a coder to adapt it, and the ase import(ase also is not common format, I just have Ultimate Unwrap so I could export one) did not work for me...(I'm an artist)

Second in priority after lightmaps, for me it would be export import plugins. But mainly...halflife BSPs (for the other legal issues).But don't invent the wheel ; There's already a free hl BSP compiler for free, you just have to download ZHLT tools and see which is the format (surely the initial of Warcraft/Hammer, maybe called *.map.Ask some hl modder...) But I don't know how well this format support lightmaps and other features; don't know if it is as good as less free quake3 bsp format. Still, if I remember well, HL and CS had nice lightmaps, so...

Anyway, BSPs(old format) has its problems for large terrains. Once again, for me the important would the more than standard in packages and engines x file with 2 uv channel support for lightmaps (I don't know how hard would be for you to generate lighting (initially could be just a lighting that generate smooth border and transparent shadows, if radiosity is too hard.))

And I think that lightmap stuff is already quite a task...or maybe not. Maybe is easy. I am not a programmer.

http://www.freewebs.com/sysiphus/<--3d fight model there
Don Malone
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Posted: 7th Apr 2004 05:51 Edited at: 7th Apr 2004 05:51
I seem to like (like most here) lightmapping as the first desired advancement to DeleD. Then I guess I would either choose Constructive Solid Geometry or More Lowpolygon Editing Functions.

And I would like to thank you for releasing the tool you created. Thanks.

Wasting CPU Cycles since the 286 was a hot machine.
JeroenNL
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Posted: 7th Apr 2004 22:19
Thanks for the comments sofar. Do keep them coming, we can use all the feedback we can get.

Use the free 3D modeller DeleD to get skilled in 3d editing! Visit http://www.delgine.com for more info.
Lascerus
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Posted: 8th Apr 2004 03:59
are there good tutorials for deled on how to make a level using its tools. i really like the prog and that lightmapping thing would make it outstanding. Hey can I post your url on my site. I'll review it too.

Stiyyiille
Chenak
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Posted: 8th Apr 2004 05:23
I would like .dbo import/export and lighting to be added, as far as I know, the only program which correctly exports lightmapped objects with multiple UV channels is gile[s] which is nice but it cant create levels .

Currently in my projects i have to duplicate the orignal level and apply the lightmap textures to it, dark ghost it and put it exactly over the level, doubling the amount of polygons needed and draining FPS.

So IMO this would be great to put in .

Once you start down the Dark Path, forever will it dominate your destiny...
JeroenNL
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Posted: 8th Apr 2004 12:50
Quote: "--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
are there good tutorials for deled on how to make a level using its tools. i really like the prog and that lightmapping thing would make it outstanding. Hey can I post your url on my site. I'll review it too.
"


Sure you can post my URL on your site. Let me know when you finish the review.

A tutorial is in the making right now by Hamish (member of this forum). I want to have a bunch of them but I don't have the time to write them myself. Volunteers anybody?

Use the free 3D modeller DeleD to get skilled in 3d editing! Visit http://www.delgine.com for more info.
eat much pie
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Posted: 9th Apr 2004 14:22
I reckon you should put animation in: sure, it isn't that useful with maps, but very handy with smaller thing. Oh, and importing ".X" files is a must, and if you don't... (shaking fists)

One by one, the penguins are stealing my sanity...
Lascerus
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Posted: 10th Apr 2004 00:41
I finished my review. I'll write the tutorials if somebody with msn or aim can show me how to use it. I also have a big request for many game developers about that import thing....i am busy with a character creation kit. I need a good user interface I was thinking of using deled cause its free and well its great or almost. Anyway i was thinking of creating an import library or something to make it super easy to make every type of character you would need. So... let me know what you think. heres my site
http://flags-world.dbspot.com

Stiyyiille
AnDrEy
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Posted: 10th Apr 2004 12:08
I just started figuring DeleD out and made a little warehouse
Its a bit diffirent from some modellers but I like it- a .dbo and .x import ability would be really nice since I want some of my other objects in the warehouse and position them properly. And maybe you could have a select function using the mouse on the screen it would help instead going to the scene page?

JeroenNL
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Posted: 10th Apr 2004 12:55
@ The Flag: thanks for your review. You stated that DeleD is missing a few key features. Can you specify which features? About the import: DeleD will be able to import more fileformats in the future, either by plugins written by other programmers or by standard functionality added by me.

@ AnDrEy: you can actually select your objects by using shift+leftmouse (read the Help, all commands are summarized on one page only!). Also, a .x import function would be nice. I will work on that in the future. For now, you can use the 3D Object Convertor by Zoltan to convert over 300 formats to DeleD map files.

Use the free 3D modeller DeleD to get skilled in 3d editing! Visit http://www.delgine.com for more info.
Lascerus
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Posted: 10th Apr 2004 16:08
well its really just the lightmapping ability and the importing ability as far as i know. I don't know how to use the prog yet but Im trying. A brush manipulator like in tempest. You know the one you raise or lower to make all your brushes the same size. Thats if you don't have one aready. CAn someboy please tell me just how to make a room thats it. thats all I need to know.Thanks/

Stiyyiille
JeroenNL
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Posted: 10th Apr 2004 16:56
Ok, thanks for the info. About the room: simply draw a cube giving it the size of the room you want. Then select it (using shift+leftmouse) and use the Hollow function. Set the segment depth (that's how thick your walls/floor/ceiling will be) and voila. A room is born. Now give your polygons different textures and you're done.

Use the free 3D modeller DeleD to get skilled in 3d editing! Visit http://www.delgine.com for more info.
Lascerus
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Posted: 10th Apr 2004 17:15
wow.thats it. Oh my gosh. this program is the greatest. Cshop better run. hey what do you think of my character kit idea. Thanks alot for the help. Its so simple i almost feel silly.

Stiyyiille
jrowe
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Posted: 10th Apr 2004 17:47 Edited at: 10th Apr 2004 17:48
I too would like to see this export in DBO with lightmaps. I'd also like to see UV mapping.

This is a great program and I'd like to see it's full potential.


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JeroenNL
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Posted: 10th Apr 2004 17:47
Glad to be of help. About the character kit idea: that's a really nice idea. However, I don't know if DeleD is the most suitable modeller for your needs because it does not have all the usual modeling tools yet. It's more suitable for world/level creation than it is for character modeling.

Use the free 3D modeller DeleD to get skilled in 3d editing! Visit http://www.delgine.com for more info.
Lascerus
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Posted: 10th Apr 2004 18:37
i see deled has a merge tool. thats basically all I need. Oh and the importer for .x file format for the character kit. Its basically going to be a drag and droptype of thing. I would use canvas but the merge object isn't on the freeware i think.

Stiyyiille
Fallout
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Posted: 16th Apr 2004 04:19 Edited at: 16th Apr 2004 04:21
By god, the answer is lightmapping! Lightmapping is the holy grail of all DB users with aspirations for beauty. DeleD handles fine, and I was using it in literally 5 minutes. Really straight forward and intuitive, but it's no use to me without lightmapping. Lightmapping turns boring looking cheap levels into beautiful levels that feel realistic.

How can a man make a torture chamber without erilly cast shadows?!?!

Yep, some sort of lightmapping that's easy to use with DBPro, and this man, and many others like me, will be pleased as punch. Give us lightmapping, and you'll never go without a christmas card again.

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JeroenNL
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Posted: 16th Apr 2004 13:07
You've got a deal, Fallout! I'll implement lightmapping, and you'll send me christmas cards for the rest of my life!

Seriously though, lightmapping has been put higher on the priority list.

Use the free 3D modeller DeleD to get skilled in 3d editing! Visit http://www.delgine.com for more info.
Fallout
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Posted: 16th Apr 2004 15:02 Edited at: 16th Apr 2004 15:03
Nice one! That'll defintely make DeleD one of the main contenters for level solutions - especially with its price tag.

As for the christmas card, will you settle for home made ones, with sequins and glitter, and a cotton wool snowman? hehehe.

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Nazgul
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Posted: 16th Apr 2004 16:05
you can model and uv map(lithunwrap, metasequoia, wings) with available free tools. It's very possible now to export as x format with several converters (ie, metasequoia, which is also free, or conv3ds, or old shareware versions of 3d explorer, Lithunwrap, etc, etc)

BUT..you cannot do lightmaps for free. No way. Or not an easy way to do it. Depending only on BSP is depending on (only two for really free for comercial projects: quark and getic.But lots of issues involved..compiler, etc)editors that usually can import meshes in standard modellers...so, usually much simpler geometry...

If you add something to generate and load the tgas , the lightmaps I mean...great...

actually comercial ones there are a bunch...cartography, giles(seems the best for lightmaps), that other one at binary moon...but...that is, comercial ones.

http://www.freewebs.com/sysiphus/<--3d fight model there
Peter H
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Posted: 16th Apr 2004 17:02
yes we will all worship you if you give us lightmapping


Formerly known as "DarkWing Duck"
Lascerus
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Posted: 17th Apr 2004 03:39
yay..lightmapping...Deled's the greatest.

Stiyyiille
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JeroenNL
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Posted: 17th Apr 2004 11:33
It's now obvious to me that lightmapping is very much wanted by the users of DeleD. So we've put it higher on our priority list. Because lighting/CSG/UV mapping/etc etc is pretty hard stuff to implement, we are considering to make a commercial version of DeleD too. The freeware version will always exist (and be enhanced) but the commercial version would have additional functions like lighting etc. Don't worry though, the price of such commercial version will be very low. Around 30 euros or something like that, so everybody can afford it. We're actually planning to make a 3D engine (with Delphi source), a 3D editor and modelpacks of different kinds so we can supply just about anything to game-developing hobbyists.

Use the free 3D modeller DeleD to get skilled in 3d editing! Visit http://www.delgine.com for more info.
Fallout
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Posted: 17th Apr 2004 14:45 Edited at: 17th Apr 2004 14:50
Ok - 30 euros is about £20. I'd suggest, if you do charge that is the upper limit. Personally, I can afford more, but I don't feel like it's a worth while purchase. Anyone who's like me and considers coding games a hobby - but not their life - will probably feel the same. £20 is about my upper limit.

In perspective:
-Catography shop is £47 with VAT, which is way too much (it's more than darkbasic pro, for god sake!) - you're product will in essense so the same thing, and from early use, I prefer it to CartShop. (I would consider paying this if they sent me a CD and manual, but no such luck).
-Gile[s] is only a lightmapper, and comes in at £25, which is just about within what I'd be willing to pay. Obviously, no modelling functions, so you'd be ahead in terms of functionality. But Gile[s] does look damn good, and the lightmapper is very powerful, so you'd have a job to do.

At the moment, my level solution would probably be something like:
-Make level in DeleD (growing to like your proggy a lot)
-Make complex 3D objects in third party software and import
-Texture level in DeleD
-Light map in Gile[s]

Seeing as Gile[s] is only £5 more (if you did sell at 30 euros - 20 quid) then I'd probably still go for Giles[s] as the lightmapping functions are very sexy. You'd have to either do something on par, or lower the price, to encourage me to pay for a version of DeleD with lightmapping. I guess £15 - 22 Euros would be right to encourage me to pay for it.

Anyway, just thought I'd lend my opinion on pricing! hehe. Might help you understand one perspective of market thinking.

Edit: Almost forgot, Giles still exports as two .X formats - one for lightmapping and one for the original object. I guess if you implemented .DBO support with multi-texturing on the same object, it'd double performance over Gile[s] - in which case, you're product would be the clear winner.

Hope that all helps!

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Lascerus
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Posted: 17th Apr 2004 16:11
30 euros is R255 where Im from thats alot. Months groceries easily. Damn. Guess im back to gmax.

Stiyyiille
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JeroenNL
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Posted: 17th Apr 2004 18:44 Edited at: 17th Apr 2004 18:58
@ Fallout: thanks very much for your comments. I'm thinking much like you do right now, as in 30 euros being the maximum price for the product. I want it to be available for gamedevelopment-hobbyists. It's a hobby and should be easily affordable. That doesn't mean it has to be free also. Afterall, when DeleD is in the shape I want it to be, it will be a 3D editor suitable for creating lighted levels and reasonably complex models using a wide range of lowpolygon functions and CSG with a plugin architecture to allow other developers to write import/export functionality. That's gotta be worth something, eh?

@ The Flag: No no, you're not back to GMax, you can stay with the free version of DeleD which is being enhanced all the time. And it's not even sure we're going the commercial way so don't worry.

Use the free 3D modeller DeleD to get skilled in 3d editing! Visit http://www.delgine.com for more info.
Lascerus
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Posted: 17th Apr 2004 18:51 Edited at: 17th Apr 2004 19:18
lol I know..Just kidding.
I know this isn't th post and I'm not hi-jacking but...I triedd to export a room made in deled to 3D Canvas and only one wall was present after importing.(nothing was selected when I exported)

Stiyyiille
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JeroenNL
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Posted: 17th Apr 2004 19:44
@ The Flag: please post that question in a seperate thread (preferably on the DeleD forum!) because i'd like to keep this thread as clean as possible and only talk about possible enhancements for DeleD.

But to answer your question: take a look at the .x file. Are all the objects in there? If so, it's a 3D canvas problem. If not, DeleD's the problem.

Use the free 3D modeller DeleD to get skilled in 3d editing! Visit http://www.delgine.com for more info.
Fallout
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Posted: 18th Apr 2004 04:12
Hey, sounds good. If you turn DeleD into a decent all round solution, than it will definitely be worth paying for. I think pretty much everyone has to use about 10 programs (exaggeration for melodramatic effect ) to get the job done, so if you can provide the level solution in one program then thats worth some money.

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mm0zct
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Posted: 14th May 2004 20:53
support for importing another model format would be good, .x or .dbo preferably but any commonly supported format would be good. alternatively a .x to .dmf converter

lightmapping top though

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