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Hi all,

after being directed to find a suitable discussion of diferent basics on this forum i found the following thread (http://darkbasicpro.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=17484&b=2)

Now my questions have shifted a little.

What i want is in the end to be a Profecional C/C++ app developer in the category of general and Businnes apps. While i learn all that i wanted to use a basic language to toy with the idea of some aplications and do some RAD for prototyping without too much headaches...

I came to this forum thinking DarkBasic would be the solution, since i hate the way ($$) MS markets VS.NET ( i have gotten some copies of it but it always manages to screw my system wich is an Athlon XP 1800+ with 1GB ram running WindowsXP Pro ). it looks now that i was mistanken regarding DBP, not that is not a great product but is not what i looking for, is specifically designed to make games, hence all other types of apps are kind of weird in it ( IMHO ).

Now it seems i have a plethora of options regarding wich way to go. But my plan calls for a good Basic and a good C/C++ system. I have been trying CodeWarrior but it seems to lack the rad part is a great compiler with an IDE but i dont have the "Draw Window, drop control" so common to most rads. I dont mind doing things by hand but i am at a loss as to how to make a Windows APP from scratch.

this leaves me with a two question aproach.

Since, the basic question is nearly not a question but a given i would ask instead, what do i really loose when i buy the Standard Version of VB.Net ? i dont want to get the VS.NET ( too expensive ) so i am left with the Standard Version for VB.NET.

Wich IDE and wich Books would you guys recomend to learn Windows APP development? I ask the same question for VB.NET, What would i really loose if i get VC++.NET Standard? Do i need to consider C# as a viable option? seems to me that C# is more akin to Java ( a VM run LAnguage ) than to C++ and i am not sure if i could develop "Normal" windows apps in it.

Any advice you guys can give would be apreciated.

If you are going the vb.net route I would suggest Professional over Standard. In the oldern days C++ was a vast difference and much more powerful language than VB6 - this is no longer the case with the advent of .NET. C# and VB.NET are on level playing fields, primarily because they finally made vb a truly Object Oriented Language. Both vb.net and C# compile to the same code MSIL/CLR. The two languages differ only now in source code syntax (where the differences are vast) but the power level has become equal. If you have c++ experience then I would recommend staying in your native-tounge and go to C#, if you come from vb background then by all means go with vb.net. Either way you can't go wrong. Anyone just starting out learning will be making a mistake by learning vb6 at this juncture, although I can't say the same for C++. I still think c++ is a worthwhile undertaking even at this juncture.

edit: now I will try and answer something that you actually asked: You can download the .NET SDK 1.1 which has everything you need to develop and deploy .net apps but without the ide. Why anyone would do this I am not sure but if you need a full package for not too much $$ look into "professional" version of whichever language you prefer (vb.net or C#)

all .net is pure executable code - nothing interpretted or "vm" about it!! vb hasn't been "interpretted" since vb4

Go with VB.Net or VB6, C# and C++ are best learned in university, where you'll have to go anyway to stand a chance of becomming a legitimate C#/C++ programmer - a good understanding of application design and development is more important than specific languages right now. You should look into interfacing database systems and learn a bit of VBA too - a lot of people will advise against products like MS Access, but I make a living from it - and there's nothing better for quick system development. Of course there's nobody standing over you telling you that you must learn C++ at all - some would say that VB is the top dog for application development, Delphi is no slouch either.


Van-B

only problem is i went to the university a long time ago where i learned to code for IBM S/36 and S/34 on RPG and cobol. i been working on baby AS/400 for a while now using cobol and AS/400 RPG.

What i am doing is updating myself to modern times, so no chance of me going to college again. I am going the self-study aproach.

Still the question needs to be asked, what would i loose if i buy the standard edition of VB.NET | VC# | VC++.NET, they all cost about US$100.00, wich is as much as i can afford on a home project like this. ( the exchange rate in my country is RD$50 to US$1, so you see, i better have a really good reason other than bell and whistles to get anything over standard.

on the other hand, what books would you guys recomend for learnign to write Windows APPS? i mean i got C Primer Plus, C++ Primer Plus, Beggining C Programing, The C programing Language. but all of them are console oriented, no idea how to open up a window yet.

and in regards to the C/C++ IDE/RAD i would like to know wich one you guys recomend.

once again thanks in advance

Delphi! Delphi! Delphi! Erm... Sorry. Got a bit carried away there...

Delphi of course combines nearly all the power of c++, but it wraps it in a comprehendable and extensible form. That means you can start writing apps fairly quickly using the RAD IDE. Delphi is also 'purer', if could call it that, in that it doesn't rely so much on external systems and technologies to operate, like ActiveX. Don't get me wrong, you can of course use ActiveX if you want, but it's not required to do useful stuff.

Delphi also now has .Net, so there's no reason to buy Microsoft. Buy Borland instead.

They seem to have taken down the free Personal Edition of Delphi 6 from their websites, but there is a personal edition for $99 of Delphi 7, the next to last edition of the language.

[EDIT: I should read all the posts before I post myself. I'll make that a new year's resolution, I think.]

So much for my product recommendation. Then to academic concerns. If you're an old hand at computing, then chances are you already know Pascal, and Delphi is of course to Pascal what C++ is to C. Except it's a lot more similar.

That doesn't mean it's inflexible, but Delphi may be a bit more prickly in certain ways. But if you want to learn coding, you're not going to concern yourself with time critical pixel transforms in your own huge 3d game engine anyway, so...

So Delphi is always a good bet. But so is VB6 and VB.Net. I'm not such a fanatical .Net adherant, so I actually suggest that if you can get hold of VB6 then do so and learn that first, and then move up. VB6 is by no means a slow or cumbersom language.

More information: http://www.borland.com

Shadower, you may want to visit ms' site and compare the packages there.

i just went to compare, there is no real usefull information regarding to what you loose in the standard edition (there is no profesional edition anymore you have to buy Visual Studio Pro wich retails for US$1,000.00 )

my whole doubt come from the fact that i read ( dont remenber where ) that Visual Basic .NET 2003 Standard Edition, cant for instance connect to a databse ( only to the Desktop DB engine ), that it cant make stand alone executables, etc... and i was worried that a) it might be true AND b) will the other products ( Visual C#, Visual C++ ) standard editions might behave like that. I dont want to throw away US$100.00 to learn i got some useless junk.

*sigh*
I hate M$

I think you got that all wrong, sorry to say.
I don't know where you read that but I'd like to see it if you can find it again. You weren't on one of those "ms hatin' sites" were you?

since I develop professionally and only use Enterprise Architect Editions of VS6, VS.NET2002, VS.NET2003 I can't really say for sure what's up with the standard versions.

I have a feeling that Shadower might be referring to the "drag and drop" facilities within the IDE. In the lower versions you are not able to connect directly to database servers and create Stored Procedures and so on. But things like that are merely an inconvienience. The frustrating part is that you know the software CAN do it but chooses not to.

A search on google found this:

http://msdn.microsoft.com/vcsharp/productinfo/faq/default.aspx

Which says this:

Q.
What are the differences between Visual C# .NET Standard Edition and Visual Studio .NET Professional Edition?

A.
Visual C# .NET 2003 Standard is intended for hobbyist or non-professional developers looking to learn the C# programming language. As such, it does not include the following features found in Visual Studio .NET 2003 Professional and higher editions:

The "server" node in the Server Explorer.
Developers will commonly use this feature to visually design server-side solutions.
Source code control integration.
Programmers looking to use Microsoft Visual SourceSafe® should upgrade to Visual Studio .NET Professional Edition or higher.
Enhanced debugging support.
Developers looking to debug remote server or service objects and to debug SQL applications will need to upgrade to Visual Studio .NET Professional Edition or higher.
Enhanced deployment support.
Visual C# .NET Standard will not provide support for creating CAB files, deploying to a Web server, or incorporating redistributable components in projects.
Visual database tools.
Developers will need to upgrade in order to visually design tables, queries, and stored procedures.
Extra wizards.
Numerous additional wizards ranging from the Control Creation wizard to the Windows Service wizard are not present in Visual C# .NET Standard Edition.
Sample applications.
The enterprise samples for "Fitch and Mather" and "Duwamish" are only available to users of Visual Studio .NET Professional Edition and higher.
Software development kit (SDK) support.
Developers wishing to obtain the Microsoft Platform SDK or Visual Studio SDK must either download them or purchase Visual Studio .NET Professional Edition or higher.
Smart device programmability.
Developers looking to build applications for the emerging class of Windows CE-based devices, including the Pocket PC, should upgrade to Visual Studio .NET Professional Edition or higher.


So as we can see - hardly anything anyone who is picking up Visual Studio for the first time is going to miss.

My advice would be go for C#. With Managed DirectX out now (albeit with rubbish documentation) I'm surprised more people aren't looking at this, since Web, Application & now game (and XBox?) development can be done in one IDE with one language.

Sonic thats sound info and advice
good job doing the leg-work to clear it up.

And after all is said and done, i do a ton of programming against sql server and such and I still prefer to use the sql server itself to develop the db and the sprocs, although I do like the fact I can see my tables and sprocs from within the vs ide, so when writing code I don't have to keep switching back and forth. Like you said new users won't miss this stuff at all. The core languages aren't missing anything, just the ide bells and whistles.

cool

thanks guys, all of you.
and thanks the torrent... i will try visual C#.net standard then i will decide if i should buy it

just keep in mind C# syntax is a lot loke C++ and not very friendly unless you have some prior experience. If you have skills in some form of Basic then go with VB.NET. Either way welcome to the world of Object Oriented Programming