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Geek Culture / Good non-game related programming languages?

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Shadow
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Posted: 8th Apr 2004 00:23
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For use for things other than making games, what programming languages would people recommend? Here's a few points I would consider important:

1. quality of final product
2. low cost
3. ease of learning
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Lord Ozzum
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Posted: 8th Apr 2004 00:28
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those don't seem to go together:
quality and ease
try DB, that would be a good choice, that's good quality, otherwise try C++ if you want to sell your games (no offence, Rich and DBers, it's just selling DB stuff ain't a great idea as not to many people will think it's a crappy skill because it's easier in a lot of places)

You're just jealous cuz the voices don't talk to you!!!
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Shadow
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Posted: 8th Apr 2004 00:40
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I already have DBP, hence the "Joined: Thu Oct 17th 2002". I was asking about languages that are not made for game making (and of course, do not require DirectX 9, etc.)

I have tried C++ a bit. It seems quite nice.
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Lord Ozzum
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Posted: 8th Apr 2004 00:42
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when you joined means nothing, but I'd suggest going on in C++

You're just jealous cuz the voices don't talk to you!!!
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Shadow
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Posted: 8th Apr 2004 00:46
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Quote: "when you joined means nothing"

It usually means that you are interested in some form on DarkBasic and therefore probably possess some version of it. which I do.

What do you think of Java?
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CattleRustler
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Posted: 8th Apr 2004 00:48
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Mr X, by what merit are you suggesting that? Not that you are wrong, just by what merit or experience do you feel you can advise our good friend Mr. Shadow, here? Just out of pure curiousity...


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HZence
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Posted: 8th Apr 2004 00:48
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Java is great for developing internet applications (or applets).

Go with C#.


Team EOD :: Programmer/Storyboard Assistant
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Saikoro
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Posted: 8th Apr 2004 00:49 Edited at: 8th Apr 2004 00:49
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Java is good for internet, u could also try delphi maybe for offline, but ur best bet would be C++, u can get a good free compiler (DevC++) and it also makes really good quality programs, if u take the time to learn it.

-Vash the Stampede

"This world is LOVE and PEACE!" -Vash the Stampede

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Lord Ozzum
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Posted: 8th Apr 2004 00:51
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oh, wait, I didn't read the title, it's not for game-making
*hits self on head*
sorry Shadow! I didn't realize that
God am I stupid?
Don't any of you answer that

You're just jealous cuz the voices don't talk to you!!!
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CattleRustler
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Posted: 8th Apr 2004 00:53
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nice side-step of my question


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Izzy545
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Posted: 8th Apr 2004 01:10
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VB.NET for windows applications, though I'm not sure of cost or anything. It is quite easy to use, I learnt it fairly quickly and am making apps already. Unless you're looking for something harder then go for C++
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Lord Ozzum
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Posted: 8th Apr 2004 01:14
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oh, if you want me to actually answer it, then here goes:
once upon a time ago there was a person...let's dub him me. anyways, me was figuring out if he should try c++ and stared at the tutorial and figured it would be nice if he already knew how, and decided it must be good if it looks complicated, so me decided he would try C instead because it sounded basicer. he did ok with it until he figured out his mission in life was not to program and was more of to look on in awe at people who could. that's why I write
the end (all of that is true except for the part about doing OK in it...I wish)

You're just jealous cuz the voices don't talk to you!!!
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CattleRustler
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Posted: 8th Apr 2004 01:18
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X, that's a commendable answer. Did you ever consider being a designer? <very seriously> Game, program design?...


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Lord Ozzum
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Posted: 8th Apr 2004 01:26
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I've thought about it (ever since I first played Mario and finally beat Bowser. for a 6-year-old, that was hard), but Shadow, I have no clue about much of coding, as again everything has kinda been like my C++ thing, hmmm...you might want to try http://www.google.com No offence, but that helps me a lot whenever I need answers

You're just jealous cuz the voices don't talk to you!!!
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Toby Quan
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Posted: 8th Apr 2004 01:32
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I must recommend Visual Basic. It is relatively cheap, easy to learn, easy to use, and it can create very high quality applications.

The same goes with MS Access. It is cheap, easy to learn, and very powerful! Not a bad tool. It's like everything in one - a database, forms engine, report engine, query container, and code container.
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HZence
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Posted: 8th Apr 2004 02:07
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I know a good bit of C++, but I don't recommend it for two reasons:

1) Sort of out of date. You'll want to use the .NET platform version most likely - aka C#.
2) If you're new to programming, it isn't an easy thing to learn. No, not at all. heh.

And I do recommend it for other reasons:

1) Gives you a LOAD OF POWER
2) Great for game development, though that's one of the most complicated things you can do with it, next to programming, say, an OS.

Yeah, I use VB, and personally I'm in love with it.

Speaking of which, I better go get some studying done - I'm working on a project in VB and I wanna get a chance to work on it tonight.


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CattleRustler
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Posted: 8th Apr 2004 02:18
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notice I am not posting my opinion of what should be learned?

just checking.


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MicroMan
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Posted: 8th Apr 2004 04:52 Edited at: 8th Apr 2004 04:53
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@CattleRustler

Yes. I did notice. I'm speechless.

@Shadow

I feel I have to pick of the slack of CattleRustler here.

But VB.Net is a very good computer language. I think Delphi is better, but what the heck. VB.Net is a very good computer language. Go for that, if you're not aiming to be a paid professional programmer. With .Net is kind of a moot question anyway, and more of a question of what some guy that's hiring thinks a computer programmer should know rather than being the actual thing that a computer programmer should know.

That sentence sounds horrible convoluted. But I'm tired.

-----
They SAID that given enough time a million monkeys with typewriters could recreate the collected works of William Shakespeare... Internet sure proved them wrong.
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Lord Ozzum
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Posted: 8th Apr 2004 04:58
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CR, got a new respect for you
HZence, in Ausukusa, who are you?
Shadow, for online tutorials are free a lot of the time, so after you have chosen, try that

You're just jealous cuz the voices don't talk to you!!!
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CattleRustler
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Posted: 8th Apr 2004 05:36
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thank you gentlemen

as for my $0.02, C++ is the premier language, we all know that. But, due to it's steep learning curve, and the state of flux the programming world is in, and if you have no prior experience and want a c-based language, I would have to say learn C#. If you can learn C++ and become highly proficient in under 1 year then by all means learn C++ first then move onto the next step which is C#, for all other normal humans you're better off with a .NET based language like C# or VB.NET first(whichever animal floats your boat - they're the same aside from the source syntax) The reason I'd say learn C# over C++ is that by the time a normal human gets c++ to a sweet level, COM, DCOM, ActiveX, and all other currently fading technologies will be that much more faded. Yes, C++ and vb6 programmers are always needed for maintenance (for now and the near future) but lets all face it: it's all going "bye bye" - and that includes VB6, C++, ASP, COM, DCOM, and every other "hot" item you can think of based on COM technology. Even DirectX 9 includes pure .NET Classes now. Think about this whole XB2 stuff that's been coming down the pipe, and PC development for it!... Mark these words. It's not happening over night - but it is happening, so be prepared. The next version of windows is based on .NET/XML technology - No COM components to be found. Yeah, sure they will "support" them like .NET does now with ComInterop etc but the signs are as clear as day.

Choose whatever language you like, learn well, practice hard, just don't make a long-winded effort into some technology that is going to disappear in the very near future.

sorry to .rant about .net


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HZence
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Posted: 8th Apr 2004 05:48
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Quote: "HZence, in Ausukusa, who are you?"


Quote: "Team EOD :: Programmer/Storyboard Assistant"





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Scouseknight
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Posted: 8th Apr 2004 06:05
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Mr X - re : "it's just selling DB stuff ain't a great idea as not to many people will think it's a crappy skill because it's easier in a lot of places"

Not disagreeing with your sentiments on the difficulty to learn something like C++ over DB but my question is how does an end-user know something has been developed in DB or any other language for that matter when they get an EXE to run and nothing else?



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Lord Ozzum
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Posted: 8th Apr 2004 06:05
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Yeah, but WHO are you? as in your name

You're just jealous cuz the voices don't talk to you!!!
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Lord Ozzum
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Posted: 8th Apr 2004 06:07
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I was talking about a corporation to hire you
But of the people: I can't use it to well either (you see? I'm not meant to be a programmer) but of the games friends have given me, they hvae pyramids on them

You're just jealous cuz the voices don't talk to you!!!
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Scouseknight
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Posted: 8th Apr 2004 06:10
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I see what you was meaning now - time for sleep methinks



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IanM
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Posted: 8th Apr 2004 10:36 Edited at: 8th Apr 2004 16:00
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Quote: "Sort of out of date"

Quote: "Yes, C++ and vb6 programmers are always needed for maintenance (for now and the near future) but lets all face it: it's all going "bye bye""


It always makes me chuckle to hear about the impending death of C++ ... as the most used programming language currently available, despite it not having any marketing machine (like c# or java) to push it.

People also generally dismiss the old 'hot' items while plugging the latest 'hot' item. Well, even microsoft (bless their hearts) don't think that C++ is dying ... why else would they be giving it more support under .NET than c# or VB.NET?

I'll post a few links later to MS presentations and information on the up-and-coming VStudio

[EDIT]Link to the PDC2003 presentations : http://microsoft.sitestream.com/PDC2003/index.htm

Also, there was an article in Dr Dobbs in October measuring the number of web-based job offers by language ... C++ came first, followed by Java, then C, then VB6. More interestingly, COBOL was in the list hovering between 2.5% and 6.9%

I would say that any language that handles the basic GUI stuff for you would be the easiest place to start. GUI stuff is always difficult to learn[/EDIT]

*** Coming soon - Network Plug-in - Check my site for info ***
For free Plug-ins, source and the Interface library for Visual C++ 6, .NET and now for Dev-C++ http://www.matrix1.demon.co.uk
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Shadow
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Posted: 10th Apr 2004 20:28
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Thankyou everyone for offering your opinions.
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CattleRustler
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Posted: 10th Apr 2004 22:38 Edited at: 12th Apr 2004 06:13
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Quote: "People also generally dismiss the old 'hot' items while plugging the latest 'hot' item."

how long has this stuff been around? not that it is going away tomorrow but why waste time with something that's on it way to becoming a maintenance language? Also from the vb perspective, until you have used older versions there is no way to appreciate the improvements .net makes over all other versions.

Quote: "Well, even microsoft (bless their hearts) don't think that C++ is dying ... why else would they be giving it more support under .NET than c# or VB.NET?"

more support??
c++ unmanaged is supported. C#(C++ Managed ) and VB.NET, ARE .NET!

??


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M00NSHiNE
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Posted: 10th Apr 2004 23:09
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Bah, this confuses me even more!!! It seems theres problems whichever language you choose. I want a simple language whereby I can code programs like script editors, web browsers, DB .dlls, without the hassle of spending the rest of my life learning it. If I didnt have 3 A levels to worry about and I could sit around all day doing nothing but learn coding then I'd happily take on C++ or something similar, but with studies taking up so much time (even my free time is spent mainly doing graphics work for college) then I have to limit myself. I dont ever want to be a coder for a professional developer, but I'd much prefer to be a designer. To be totally honest I'd like to spend my life writing games in DBPro and selling them on as shareware, its much more fitting.

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CattleRustler
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Posted: 11th Apr 2004 02:00
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Quote: "I want a simple language whereby I can code programs like script editors, web browsers, DB .dlls, without the hassle of spending the rest of my life learning it"


then c++ ain't it. I'd suggest vb.net or c#


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Douglass
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Posted: 12th Apr 2004 04:49
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i was sorta wondering the same thing as shadow. is there anything real simple like pure basic with tiny file sizes but totally free?


http://www.dougsworld.tk
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MikeS
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Posted: 12th Apr 2004 05:13
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Not that I know of Doug. I would just buy PureBasic and recommend PB to Shadow.



A book? I hate book. Book is stupid.
(Formerly known as Yellow)
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Sonic
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Posted: 12th Apr 2004 16:24
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Quote: "more support??
c++ unmanaged is supported. C#(C++ Managed ) and VB.NET, ARE .NET!"

CR you seem to be implying there that C# IS managed C++ whereas this is not the case.

MS have a host of additions to the C++ language to make it possible to write managed code in C++ without using C#. Whether that method becomes popular or whether C++ coders just switch to C# remains to be seen.

Also, yourself & IanM obviously have different views on the future of C++. Something that puzzles me is that if MS "got rid of" the Win32 API (unmanaged) and replaced it only with the .NET framework, then who, if programming for windows and given the choice, would program in C++ over C#?

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Shadow
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Posted: 12th Apr 2004 22:34
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In case I hadn't mentioned it, I already know some (very) simple C++ and Java stuff. I know the basic principles of Java (objects, inheritance, etc.) and, well I've probably forgotten a fair amount of the C++ stuff, but I could recap if needed.
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