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Geek Culture / I found a Flaw in the 'Logic to Women' Theory =)

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John H
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Posted: 15th Apr 2004 05:34
Heres how it goes

Girls Are Evil Theory

First off, everyone knows that girls require both time and money:


Next we consider the fact that time is money:


Now it follows that:


And we all know that money is the root of all evil:


So now we have:


Or




Now read this, and the error is proven.

"So you think that money is the root of all evil?" "Have you ever asked what is the root of money? Money is a tool of exchange, which can't exist unless there are goods produced and men able to produce them. Money is the material shape of the principle that men who wish to deal with one another must deal by trade and give value for value. Money is not the tool of the moochers, who claim your product by tears, or of the looters, who take it from you by force. Money is made possible only by the men who produce. Is this what you consider evil?

"When you accept money in payment for your effort, you do so only on the conviction that you will exchange it for the product of the effort of others. It is not the moochers or the looters who give value to money. Not an ocean of tears nor all the guns in the world can transform those pieces of paper in your wallet into the bread you will need to survive tomorrow. Those pieces of paper, which should have been gold, are a token of honor – your claim upon the energy of the men who produce. Your wallet is your statement of hope that somewhere in the world around you there are men who will not default on that moral principle which is the root of money. Is this what you consider evil?

"Have you ever looked for the root of production? Take a look at an electric generator and dare tell yourself that it was created by the muscular effort of unthinking brutes. Try to grow a seed of wheat without the knowledge left to you by men who had to discover it for the first time. Try to obtain your food by means of nothing but physical motions – and you'll learn that man's mind is the root of all the goods produced and of all the wealth that has ever existed on earth.

"But you say that money is made by the strong at the expense of the weak? What strength do you mean? It is not the strength of guns or muscles. Wealth is the product of man's capacity to think. Then is money made by the man who invents a motor at the expense of those who did not invent it? Is money made by the intelligent at the expense of the fools? By the able at the expense of the incompetent? By the ambitious at the expense of the lazy? Money is made – before it can be looted or mooched – made by the effort of every honest man, each to the extent of his ability. An honest man is one who knows that he can't consume more than he has produced.

"To trade by means of money is the code of the men of good will. Money rests on the axiom that every man is the owner of his mind and his effort. Money allows no power to prescribe the value of your effort except by the voluntary choice of the man who is willing to trade you his effort in return. Money permits you to obtain for your goods and your labor that which they are worth to the men who buy them, but no more. Money permits no deals except those to mutual benefit by the unforced judgment of the traders. Money demands of you the recognition that men must work for their own benefit, not for their own injury, for their gain, not their loss – the recognition that they are not beasts of burden, born to carry the weight of your misery – that you must offer them values, not wounds – that the common bond among men is not the exchange of suffering, but the exchange of goods. Money demands that you sell, not your weakness to men's stupidity, but your talent to their reason; it demands that you buy, not the shoddiest they offer, but the best your money can find. And when men live by trade – with reason, not force, as their final arbiter – it is the best product that wins, the best performance, then man of best judgment and highest ability – and the degree of a man's productiveness is the degree of his reward. This is the code of existence whose tool and symbol is money. Is this what you consider evil?

"But money is only a tool. It will take you wherever you wish, but it will not replace you as the driver. It will give you the means for the satisfaction of your desires, but it will not provide you with desires. Money is the scourge of the men who attempt to reverse the law of causality – the men who seek to replace the mind by seizing the products of the mind.

"Money will not purchase happiness for the man who has no concept of what he wants; money will not give him a code of values, if he's evaded the knowledge of what to value, and it will not provide him with a purpose, if he's evaded the choice of what to seek. Money will not buy intelligence for the fool, or admiration for the coward, or respect for the incompetent. The man who attempts to purchase the brains of his superiors to serve him, with his money replacing his judgment, ends up by becoming the victim of his inferiors. The men of intelligence desert him, but the cheats and the frauds come flocking to him, drawn by a law which he has not discovered: that no man may be smaller than his money. Is this the reason why you call it evil?

"Only the man who does not need it, is fit to inherit wealth – the man who would make his own fortune no matter where he started. If an heir is equal to his money, it serves him; if not, it destroys him. But you look on and you cry that money corrupted him. Did it? Or did he corrupt his money? Do not envy a worthless heir; his wealth is not yours and you would have done no better with it. Do not think that it should have been distributed among you; loading the world with fifty parasites instead of one would not bring back the dead virtue which was the fortune. Money is a living power that dies without its root. Money will not serve that mind that cannot match it. Is this the reason why you call it evil?

"Money is your means of survival. The verdict which you pronounce upon the source of your livelihood is the verdict you pronounce upon your life. If the source is corrupt, you have damned your own existence. Did you get your money by fraud? By pandering to men's vices or men's stupidity? By catering to fools, in the hope of getting more than your ability deserves? By lowering your standards? By doing work you despise for purchasers you scorn? If so, then your money will not give you a moment's or a penny's worth of joy. Then all the things you buy will become, not a tribute to you, but a reproach; not an achievement, but a reminder of shame. Then you'll scream that money is evil. Evil, because it would not pinch-hit for your self-respect? Evil, because it would not let you enjoy your depravity? Is this the root of your hatred of money?

"Money will always remain an effect and refuse to replace you as the cause. Money is the product of virtue, but it will not give you virtue and it will not redeem your vices. Money will not give you the unearned, neither in matter nor in spirit. Is this the root of your hatred of money?

"Or did you say it's the love of money that's the root of all evil? To love a thing is to know and love its nature. To love money is to know and love the fact that money is the creation of the best power within you, and your passkey to trade your effort for the effort of the best among men. It's the person who would sell his soul for a nickel, who is the loudest in proclaiming his hatred of money – and he has good reason to hate it. The lovers of money are willing to work for it. They know they are able to deserve it.

"Let me give you a tip on a clue to men's characters: the man who damns money has obtained it dishonorably; the man who respects it has earned it.

"Run for your life from any man who tells you that money is evil. That sentence is the leper's bell of an approaching looter. So long as men live together on earth and need means to deal with one another – their only substitute, if they abandon money, is the muzzle of a gun.

"But money demands of you the highest virtues, if you wish to make it or to keep it. Men who have no courage, pride, or self-esteem, men who have no moral sense of their right to their money and are not willing to defend it as they defend their life, men who apologize for being rich – will not remain rich for long. They are the natural bait for the swarms of looters that stay under rocks for centuries, but come crawling out at the first smell of a man who begs to be forgiven for the guilt of owning wealth. They will hasten to relieve him of the guilt – and of his life, as he deserves.

"Then you will see the rise of the double standard – the men who live by force, yet count on those who live by trade to create the value of their looted money – the men who are the hitchhikers of virtue. In a moral society, these are the criminals, and the statutes are written to protect you against them. But when a society establishes criminals-by-right and looters-by-law – men who use force to seize the wealth of disarmed victims – then money becomes its creators' avenger. Such looters believe it safe to rob defenseless men, once they've passed a law to disarm them. But their loot becomes the magnet for other looters, who get it from them as they got it. Then the race goes, not to the ablest at production, but to those most ruthless at brutality. When force is the standard, the murderer wins over the pickpocket. And then that society vanishes, in a spread of ruins and slaughter.

"Do you wish to know whether that day is coming? Watch money. Money is the barometer of a society's virtue. When you see that trading is done, not by consent, but by compulsion – when you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing – when you see that money is flowing to those who deal, not in goods, but in favors – when you see that men get richer by graft and by pull than by work, and your laws don't protect you against them, but protect them against you – when you see corruption being rewarded and honesty becoming a self-sacrifice – you may know that your society is doomed. Money is so noble a medium that it does not compete with guns and it does not make terms with brutality. It will not permit a country to survive as half-property, half-loot.

"Whenever destroyers appear among men, they start by destroying money, for money is men's protection and the base of a moral existence. Destroyers seize gold and leave to its owners a counterfeit pile of paper. This kills all objective standards and delivers men into the arbitrary power of an arbitrary setter of values. Gold was an objective value, an equivalent of wealth produced. Paper is a mortgage on wealth that does not exist, backed by a gun aimed at those who are expected to produce it. Paper is a check drawn by legal looters upon an account which is not theirs: upon the virtue of the victims. Watch for the day when it becomes, marked: 'Account overdrawn.'

"When you have made evil the means of survival, do not expect men to remain good. Do not expect them to stay moral and lose their lives for the purpose of becoming the fodder of the immoral. Do not expect them to produce, when production is punished and looting rewarded. Do not ask, 'Who is destroying the world?' You are.

"You stand in the midst of the greatest achievements of the greatest productive civilization and you wonder why it's crumbling around you, while you're damning its life-blood – money. You look upon money as the savages did before you, and you wonder why the jungle is creeping back to the edge of your cities. Throughout men's history, money was always seized by looters of one brand or another, but whose method remained the same: to seize wealth by force and to keep the producers bound, demeaned, defamed, deprived of honor. That phrase about the evil of money, which you mouth with such righteous recklessness, comes from a time when wealth was produced by the labor of slaves – slaves who repeated the motions once discovered by somebody's mind and left unimproved for centuries. So long as production was ruled by force, and wealth was obtained by conquest, there was little to conquer. Yet through all the centuries of stagnation and starvation, men exalted the looters, as aristocrats of the sword, as aristocrats of birth, as aristocrats of the bureau, and despised the producers, as slaves, as traders, as shopkeepers – as industrialists.

"To the glory of mankind, there was, for the first and only time in history, a country of money – and I have no higher, more reverent tribute to pay to America, for this means: a country of reason, justice, freedom, production, achievement. For the first time, man's mind and money were set free, and there were no fortunes-by-conquest, but only fortunes-by-work, and instead of swordsmen and slaves, there appeared the real maker of wealth, the greatest worker, the highest type of human being – the self-made man – the American industrialist.

"If you ask me to name the proudest distinction of Americans, I would choose – because it contains all the others – the fact that they were the people who created the phrase 'to make money'. No other language or nation had ever used these words before; men had always thought of wealth as a static quantity – to be seized, begged, inherited, shared, looted, or obtained as a favor. Americans were the first to understand that wealth has to be created. The words 'to make money' hold the essence of human morality.

"Yet these were the words for which Americans were denounced by the rotted cultures of the looters' continents. Now the looters' credo has brought you to regard your proudest achievements as a hallmark of shame, your prosperity as guilt, your greatest men, the industrialists, as blackguards, and your magnificent factories as the product and property of muscular labor, the labor of whip-driven slaves, like the pyramids of Egypt. The rotter who simpers that he sees no difference between the power of the dollar and the power of the whip, ought to learn the difference on his own hide – as, I think, he will.

"Until and unless you discover that money is the root of all good, you ask for your own destruction. When money ceases to be the tool by which men deal with one another, then men become the tools of men. Blood, whips and guns – or dollars. Take your choice – there is no other – and your time is running out."


Whoever can read that and tell me what book its from will be my new friend BTW, read it, its amazing.

RPGamer


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andrew11
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Posted: 15th Apr 2004 07:03 Edited at: 15th Apr 2004 07:06
Atlas Shrugged

You can also use the Girls = Evil equation with school too.

School = Time x Money
....
School = Exil


"All programmers are playwrites and all computers are lousy actors" -Anon
UnderLord
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Posted: 15th Apr 2004 07:34
Damn if i read all that i would have wasted a good 5 minutes of my petty little life....oh well better hop to it.

The search continues.

Current project - A space game
Manticore Night
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Posted: 15th Apr 2004 08:12
Quote: "School = Time x Money
....
School = Exil
"

Um.. school's free. So the equation should be.
School = Time * Pain.
Hey and why are Girl's evil. There's good things about them. Like ... um.. they're pretty and .. um... they make babies. .. and some make food ... well sorry to any girls reading this. Just please don't use your evil powers on me!!!

It's amazing how much TV has raised us. (Bart Simpson)
Dave J
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Posted: 15th Apr 2004 08:42
I don't think you were meant to take it literally.


"Computers are useless they can only give you answers."
Neophyte
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Posted: 15th Apr 2004 10:47
Although I agree that money isn't the root of all evil, there is very little in the way of a "proof" in that diatribe. Take the opening paragraph for example:

" Money is a tool of exchange, which can't exist unless there are goods produced and men able to produce them."

False. Money can exist without goods to be produced or men to produce them. It will just have no value. A hammer can exist without nails to hammer but that doesn't make it not a hammer or any less of a tool. It just makes it a rather useless tool, but still a tool.

"Money is the material shape of the principle that men who wish to deal with one another must deal by trade and give value for value."

How? Although this sounds good and gives diehard capitalists that warm fuzzy feeling inside she never at any point bothers to explain why this must be. Why can't a pair of hands with tools in them or a brain be the material shape of this paticular principle? She seems to go at length about people who produce(hands being symbolic of labour) and the intellect(brain) so why not those?

"Money is not the tool of the moochers, who claim your product by tears, or of the looters, who take it from you by force."

On the contrary, money most certainly is. The "moochers" as she terms them, those who seek restrictions on the market, do so through special interest groups who line the pockets of politicans with money.

Money is most certainly the tool of looters as well. Why else would they loot if they didn't have a use for Money? Do they line their walls with it or something?

"Money is made possible only by the men who produce"

False. Money can be created by nature, i.e. Gold. Rand even prefers gold to money which makes this assertion even stranger(though not very when one stops to think about who the author is).

I could go on like this for every single paragraph pointing out the flaws, but there really is no point. Ann Rand is full of hot air and raw emotionalism. Nothing more, Nothing less.

P.S. This isn't personal or anything RPGamer. I just don't like Ann Rand's grandstanding or "philisophy". I think it is pure bunk and consists of nothing but emotional hysterics and hate. So sorry if this comes out harsh. Its late and I'm tired and really can't tell the tone of my own "voice". Rand just gets my dander up that's all.
TheAbomb12
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Posted: 15th Apr 2004 11:04 Edited at: 15th Apr 2004 11:04
Ayn Rand is an Egoist who used to live in the former soviet union before moving to England. naturally she feels very stronglly about money, because in russia, money was looked down apon.

Amist the Blue Skies...
MikeyP
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Posted: 15th Apr 2004 11:57
I saw this a while back
Fallout
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Posted: 15th Apr 2004 13:39
I think money is great, and I intend to have substantially more than everyone else here .....

... and I'll do whatever it takes.

(did someone say rentboy?!?! SHUT IT!!! )

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BatVink
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Posted: 15th Apr 2004 14:02
Quote: "False. Money can exist without goods to be produced or men to produce them. It will just have no value."



But part of the definition of money is that it is used to measure value of goods.
Quote: "A medium that can be exchanged for goods and services and is used as a measure of their values on the market"

Notes and coins can exist without value I suppose, but not money.

BatVink (formerly StevieVee)
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Pricey
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Posted: 15th Apr 2004 14:07 Edited at: 15th Apr 2004 14:08


i can't be bothered reading all that text!


My signiture image is a good measure of my sanity!
Neophyte
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Posted: 15th Apr 2004 22:58
@Batvink

"Notes and coins can exist without value I suppose, but not money."

Not quite. The thing I had in mind when I posted that was that, hypothetically, if a nuclear apocolypse occured and everyone was killed our money would still exist. It wouldn't have anyone to use it, but it would still be called money.

Or to use a more modern day example, old soviet money still exists in the Chernobyl Exclusion zone. It has no value but we still call it money. It may have at one point contained value and that made it money, but it no longer does.

On a related side note:
Have you seen this site?
http://www.angelfire.com/extreme4/kiddofspeed/chapter1.html
Its about one woman's motorcycle rides through the Exclusion zone. Its pretty sobering.

Back to topic:
The same analogy applies to the hammer. If a nuclear apocolypse occured(or we found one in the Exclusion zone) the hammer would still be a hammer. No one would use it for there are no nails(the goods to trade part of Rand's analogy) or men to hammer them(the men to produce them part...sort of. I think it would be better to say there are no men to make nails to hammer. That would probably be more in line with the analogy).
andrew11
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Posted: 15th Apr 2004 23:15
@Manticore Night

Um i dont know how they do it in your school or canada (No offense, they prolly do it better than here anyway, NY's Schools are F'ed UP) but in my "free" school, I constantly pay "dues" for events i dont go to, and buy $20 books i dont even use so no, school here is NOT free.

"All programmers are playwrites and all computers are lousy actors" -Anon
John H
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Posted: 15th Apr 2004 23:18
Andrew, have you read the book or did you use google

Who wants to have a go at the point of the speech? Heres what I have to say.

Money is the root of all good. Money encourages real workers to work and produce. Most people go to their job every day to earn money, this is why money is good. Money encourages workers to work harder to produce. It creates entrepreneurs. Entrepreneurs have the urge to invent something because of money, without money, what would the reward be? Without money, goods and capital goods in the economy would not exist, this is why money is the root of all good.


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Neophyte
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Posted: 15th Apr 2004 23:34
@RPGamer

"Who wants to have a go at the point of the speech?"

Argumentive me does. Unfortunately, stressed out me doesn't have the patentice(did I even spell that right?) right now.

If you want to discuss the meaning of the speech and its validity I'd be more than willing to sit down with you and talk about it. Unfortunately, I'm real busy and stressed at the moment so I'm afraid it'll have to wait at least a day for me to recoup.

Maybe someone else will though. Who knows.
Lord Ozzum
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Posted: 16th Apr 2004 00:45
patience, I think, but that's ok

Once I dreamt that I fell into a lake full of the undead and demons. I screamed and hollered as my kitten jumped into it with me. None of my friends helped me.

I don't trust them anymore.
Toby Quan
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Posted: 16th Apr 2004 01:38
Quote: "well sorry to any girls reading this. Just please don't use your evil powers on me!!!"


I don't think you have to worry about that. This seems to be a 99% Male-centric Message Board. Unfortunately.
Teh Go0rfmeister
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Posted: 17th Apr 2004 20:33
i read the first paragraph, and then realised how many mor ethere were...

you seen that advert recently? "money is not evil, it is the people who use it that are evil, and how it is used that is evil, how the hell can a green piece of paper be evil [blah blah]" but, i didnt get the last line of it, something about a rooster, can someone clarify it for me?

http://www.tinnedhead.tk under re-construction.
David T
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Posted: 19th Apr 2004 00:39
Knowledge = Power
Time = Money

Work Done = Power * Time

so....

Work Done = Knowledge * Money

Money = Work Done / Knowledge

As Knowledge approaches zero, money approchers infinity

"To do is to be" - Descartes
"To be is to do" - Voltaire
"Do be do be do" - Frank Sinatra
Megaton Cat
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Posted: 19th Apr 2004 01:31
woaw.
This discussion is too intese for me.
And money isn't evil. The world wouldn't run without money. Maybe the world would run on favors instead? Like you get Halo from Wall mart and in exchange you have to wash the managers car? Nah.
Pricey
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Posted: 19th Apr 2004 16:44
money is not evil. the LOVE of money is evil. if a chicken was money would it be evil? no


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Ian T
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Posted: 19th Apr 2004 20:18
The actual quote from the Bible is 'the LOVE OF MONEY is the root of all evil' (which is rather vague and can be translated as several things, all of which I happen to believe are bull).

Money is a wonderful, wonderful thing. A universal system of exchange that we all like. How great is that?

TheAbomb12
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Posted: 19th Apr 2004 23:57 Edited at: 19th Apr 2004 23:58
Quote: "This discussion is too intese for me.
And money isn't evil. The world wouldn't run without money. Maybe the world would run on favors instead? "


The world wouldn't run? You mean a predominatly capatalistic world would not be able to run very well.

If we lived in a society that didn't value money, im pretty sure we could live without it...

unless of course you mean money is goods (ie food, water, essential supplies and commodities) in which case we most likly wouldn't be able to live with out it

Amist the Blue Skies...

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