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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / The Game Creators Newsletter Issue 16 is out

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OSX Using Happy Dude
21
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Location: At home
Posted: 28th Apr 2004 23:17
Yes - got to keep quiet on most things


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Phaelax
DBPro Master
22
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Joined: 16th Apr 2003
Location: Metropia
Posted: 28th Apr 2004 23:22
Quote: "Nice issue, but there's something wrong in DBDN's webpage (the one that linked from the newsletter:

Quote: "
Membership starts at only $10
"

isn't it £10 ?
"


Bloody europeans!

"eureka" - Archimedes
zircher
22
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Joined: 27th Dec 2002
Location: Oklahoma
Posted: 28th Apr 2004 23:32 Edited at: 28th Apr 2004 23:35
To put things in perspective, WildTangent also had a separate group that got higher levels of support than those that posted in the free forums.

Quote: "DEVELOPER SUPPORT

WildTangent Support for Developers is designed to provide a choice based on the level of support desired. Clients receive proactive support from Web Driver experts who can advise on how to get the most from the Web Driver and WildTangent development tools. A support contract can provide you with the flexibility to tailor support to your development needs. For more information regarding paid support, please contact us at [email protected]."


This is not a new idea that TGC thought up to scam people. Actually, the new DBDN rates are pretty cheap. IIRC, WildTangent's paid support started at $5,000 per year and went up from there.

Anyone want to guess what a support contract for Renderware would cost? The engine alone runs around $40,000 and that's considered cheap for a cross platform commercial engine.
--
TAZ

Lost in Thought
21
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Location: U.S.A. : Douglas, Georgia
Posted: 29th Apr 2004 03:16
That sounds stupid. Why pay $100 for software and then have to pay a monthly fee to tell if a bug(s) is even going to be fixed and possibly when it is goin to be fixed. On top of that you are not allowed to tell anyone which bugs may be fixed or possibly when they may be fixed. Something doesn't seem right about this. I wouldn't mind paying the monthly fee if I could share the basic information listed above with others who might not be able to pay a monthly fee.

"People don't fail ..... they stop trying." Specs. P4 2.8GHz 800 FSB | 512MB DDR333
GeForce FX 5200 AGP 256MB | Windows XP Pro Full
Ideajuice
21
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Location: Cyberspace.. out near the edge
Posted: 29th Apr 2004 03:24
Ever seen the "I'm going to write me a Ferrari" Dilbert?

E Unibus Plurum
zircher
22
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Joined: 27th Dec 2002
Location: Oklahoma
Posted: 29th Apr 2004 05:25
Quote: "That sounds stupid."


Hey, I just call'em as I see them. Advanced customer support has always come at a premium and confidentiality has always been a part of it.

If you don't like how the industry does it, write your own engine/language and we'll see how you handle it.
--
TAZ

Lost in Thought
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Location: U.S.A. : Douglas, Georgia
Posted: 29th Apr 2004 05:44
Nothing against you I just meant they should at least let everyone know what bugs are planned to be fixed and which updates they are planned to be in. There are too many confirmed bugs in the bug forum for me to waste my time counting since I don't know if or when they will be fixed. If I did write my own engine/language I wouldn't consider this advanced customer support. This is basic customer support.

"People don't fail ..... they stop trying." Specs. P4 2.8GHz 800 FSB | 512MB DDR333
GeForce FX 5200 AGP 256MB | Windows XP Pro Full
DMXtra
22
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Joined: 28th Aug 2002
Location: United States
Posted: 29th Apr 2004 14:04
Didn't Lee make a huge post for about two or three weeks in a thread and give you guys information?

Not only that but you have the newsletters every month releasing even further information.

I have always constantly given out information as well.

If you are looking for daily updates, then join DBDN, its really not that hard folks, its really not.

TGC are trying to learn from past mistakes and they are taking their time with FPSC. Since FPSC is made with DBPro, a lot of the optimisation of code is taking place, thats where a lot of the time currently is taking place is to make code faster, make features more robust before release. This includes lightmapping and shadow code at the moment.

I know it looks like I am trying to defend them and no doubt some of you will say that, however some of you don't know the big picture and you might know a lot of whats going on, but you don't know the work involved to make it happen.

Its kind of like in the movie Goldmember, with the text on the screen only showed part of the message (Austin would read it) and then the full message was shown and it was something completly different. Well this is just like that, you guys don't read the daily diaries, you get info from Lee and the newsletters, but you don't get all the info in between.

Relax, Dark Basic Pro will continue to be a viable product and even much more with upgrade 6.

Dark Basic Pro - The Bedroom Coder's Language of choice for the 21st Century.
Lost in Thought
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Posted: 29th Apr 2004 16:49
I hope so. But I'm still not joining the DBDN untill I know what I can and cannot share with others that I learn from it.

"People don't fail ..... they stop trying." Specs. P4 2.8GHz 800 FSB | 512MB DDR333
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Rob K
Retired Moderator
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Location: Surrey, United Kingdom
Posted: 29th Apr 2004 18:54
Quote: "But I'm still not joining the DBDN untill I know what I can and cannot share with others that I learn from it."


It depends on the product. With regards to something like an Upgrade from an existing product (or "bugfix"), almost all of what DBDN members know has been posted on these forums. The content that you have not seen is some of the more in-depth techie stuff, a few tech-demos and various screenshots.

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MikeS
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Posted: 29th Apr 2004 23:35
I'm sure if you really wanted some information, you could send the TGC developers a polite e-mail. Although, they don't have to tell you anything if they don't want to so you're just going to have to respect that.

Might sign up for DBDN myself though, because it's probebly worth it just for being able to read the diaries. (Not to mention networking with the developers a little. )



A book? I hate book. Book is stupid.
(Formerly known as Yellow)
Lost in Thought
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Posted: 30th Apr 2004 04:28
The only reason I even thought about joining was so I could give information to those who might not be able to pay the monthly fee. I wouldn't give out any technical info just a progress type report on what is being worked on and such. The ONLY problem I have with DBP at this time is the multitexturing problems. Sure there are other bugs, but I am having a hard time finding a good/fast (speed wise)work around this one. And I'm not paying $50 more dollars for software to fix their bug. If they didn't post lightmaps and multitexturing on their website as a feature I would have glagly bought DBP and a program like GileS for the light baking. DBP is no doubt a bargain even with all the bugs. But I hate it when people false advertise features. They could have left most of the buggy stuff off the list and I still would have bought it because it is license and royalty free. I wish they would take all the features off the website that have Confired bugs that cause them not to work properly. Then new people just buying this software like myself would not even be complaining about this stuff.

"People don't fail ..... they stop trying." Specs. P4 2.8GHz 800 FSB | 512MB DDR333
GeForce FX 5200 AGP 256MB | Windows XP Pro Full
Lost in Thought
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Posted: 30th Apr 2004 09:17
If anyone needs a pretty good work around for the lightmap problems using CShop with DBP, Josh just made a .x exporter that removes all faces that are "Textures\common\caulk.bmp" textured and you can now load your .x and _lm.x with about the same fps as the old .x alone with all the faces. It was such a simple fix and I never even thought of something like that now if multitexturing ever is fixed CShop .x levels can be really fast.

"People don't fail ..... they stop trying." Specs. P4 2.8GHz 800 FSB | 512MB DDR333
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Zeal
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Location: Colorado Springs, CO
Posted: 5th May 2004 10:25
Im with las6. If TGC is going to take this long to release fixes for their products the least they can do is allow users the OPTION to download UNSUPPORTED pre release versions of new patches. Even if commands/fixes werent 100%, it might allow some of us to continue working on our projects if there was a particular bug holding us back.

All you need is zeal
OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 5th May 2004 11:02
But there isn't anything yet.


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Rob K
Retired Moderator
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Posted: 5th May 2004 19:09
There are no pre-release versions of Patch 6 in existance, that's why they are not available for downloads.

The main reason that none of the bug-fix related information has reached the public is because it doesn't exist.

I'm not stating this as a matter of right or wrong, just as a matter of fact.

If either Lee or Mike wish to correct me on this point then I'm happy to here from them.

BlueGUI:Windows UI Plugin - All the power of the windows interface in your DBPro games. - Plus URL download, win dialogs.
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Zeal
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Posted: 6th May 2004 04:59
Well I guess thats the problem. Why has it taken 6-8-however many months its been and there STILL isnt even a buggy pre release version of the patch? Its my understanding that not only is there no version of U6 (pre release or not), but Lee hasnt even started ANYTHING yet. Im sorry but I thing TGC could work a tad harder to keep its customers happy. And I dont think im alone on that.

All you need is zeal
Mike Johnson
TGC Developer
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Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 6th May 2004 11:46
We have been working on updating the code for a while now. Lots of bug fixes have been made and the code improved. For now this is kept between Lee and myself as we're still working on things.

Mike
Dave J
Retired Moderator
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Posted: 6th May 2004 12:14
There you go, now BOTH Mike and Lee have publically said they've been working on it.


"Computers are useless they can only give you answers."
Andy Igoe
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Posted: 6th May 2004 15:19
My only real complaint is that U6 branding has been given out as the answer for just about every problem and work hasn't really started. We've had a lot of promises for features on it, but still no idea when it will arrive.

What i'd like to see in the future is more regular but smaller updates. Some bugs could be fixed in an afternoon. Sure I know how bedroom coding goes, nothing happens for a week then two weeks of work is done in a night, that's fine with us! We know the score.

Sure this would have implications for testing, so do it how everyone else does and have a link to the last official "known good" patch and have "this months WIP" patch that becomes official if the community say "A - OK!"

There are minor annoyances in the language that have probably been drilled out of it ages ago in the copy you have on your hard disks there, but we're still struggling with them because we haven't had an update for getting on towards a year. They're out of your sight and mind, but they are very much in ours every time we code.

More regular, smaller updates would remove the biggest cause of complaint that most of us have against TGC whenever public relations break down, the little bugs, the annoying things, those that where fixed on your copy of DBPro 8 months ago.

As for DBDN, obviously I am still bound by contract so cannot say what is there, but I believe I am allowed to say that I have let my membership lapse. Thereby pretty much confirming that the issues that I have are not addressed by membership.

Please guys, OK nothing will happen now until U6 comes along, but lets at least have a serious think from TGC about making updates smaller and more regular? Pretty please.


God created the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.
zircher
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Posted: 6th May 2004 16:23
By way of example, when it was found that 5.2 had a bug in the .X parser. Lee was quite accessible. We dicussed the problem, I provided example files and theories as to the cause, and even tested some bets DLLs. So, I personally know that they do work on problems that are discovered and collect them for the next patch. I have faith that things will get fixed and as a 'real world' programmer, I know that these things can take time to research, develop, and assemble for release.
--
TAZ

Rob K
Retired Moderator
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Posted: 7th May 2004 00:59
Quote: "My only real complaint is that U6 branding has been given out as the answer for just about every problem and work hasn't really started. We've had a lot of promises for features on it, but still no idea when it will arrive."


Indeed. There will be very few changes to the compiler in U6 for example according to Lee.

To be honest some of DBPro's core issues are design faults and they cannot be corrected by patches, at least, not without breaking other people's existing code.

On a more positive note, providing you word the email in a reasonably amicable way, I have never had any trouble getting hold of Lee via email - TGC's response rate is a lot better than many companies I have known.

BlueGUI:Windows UI Plugin - All the power of the windows interface in your DBPro games. - Plus URL download, win dialogs.
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Lost in Thought
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Posted: 7th May 2004 01:10
You mean U6 will be a small update? If so ... Are we going to have to start waiting 1 year between the small updates? I fear it will take 30 years to fix the basic bugs and much longer to fix the others at that rate with well over 200 confirmed bug in the bug forum. Then you add FPSC into the mix and now they are going to have to be fixing bugs for 2 products which I fear will slow the update process down even more. I hope I am wrong.

"People don't fail ..... they stop trying." Specs. P4 2.8GHz 800 FSB | 512MB DDR333
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Ideajuice
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Posted: 7th May 2004 04:53
Quote: "To be honest some of DBPro's core issues are design faults and they cannot be corrected by patches, at least, not without breaking other people's existing code."


The biggest 'core' issue I have with this product is poor documentation. That can easily be fixed without breaking anything.

E Unibus Plurum
walaber
21
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Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posted: 7th May 2004 12:13
I agree, smaller, more frequent updates would serve the community better.

Go Go Gadget DBPRO!

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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 7th May 2004 15:17
U6 will probably be rather big...


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Rob K
Retired Moderator
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Posted: 7th May 2004 16:45
U6 will hopefully be big in terms of "engine" fixes (3D etc.)

Quote: "The biggest 'core' issue I have with this product is poor documentation. That can easily be fixed without breaking "


Agreed, I think it would be a good idea for TGC to employ someone to do the documentation for them as Lee is a busy guy.

BlueGUI:Windows UI Plugin - All the power of the windows interface in your DBPro games. - Plus URL download, win dialogs.
Over 140 new commands
Andy Igoe
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Posted: 7th May 2004 16:53
I have some ideas on the documentation front which Rich is already aware of, but I dont have enough free time to get any with it at the moment, now salaried on a short term contract, that'd make a difference


God created the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.
OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 7th May 2004 16:59
I thought Ravey would be doing the documentation...


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Andy Igoe
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Posted: 7th May 2004 18:17
dunno, I wasn't paying attention !


God created the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.
DMXtra
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Posted: 8th May 2004 03:39
First of all there are bugs that have been fixed with Mike and Lee. Those bugs may or may not be on that big forum bug list.

They have not manually gone through that list yet to make sure they have fixed every bug on that list, this will come soon. They have to go through the list of bugs that came from the bug list forum to make sure they are up to date and that they can cross out the ones already fixed.

Once that happens they can then begin the process of fixing the bugs on that final list. Bugs that Lee and Mike have already found have already been fixed.

Upgrade 6 is going to be huge for bug fixes and features. They just have their hands full with many different things right now all related in some way to DBPro.

Dark Basic Pro - The Bedroom Coder's Language of choice for the 21st Century.
Zenincanin 14
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Posted: 8th May 2004 03:48
Well, I can't wait for the Downloadable version of DBP!

Good Games Are Made by Powerful Coders
Dylnuge
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Posted: 8th May 2004 16:30 Edited at: 8th May 2004 16:54
Quote: "I thought it was actually $15."


From the Website: ...starts at only $10.

At The Bottem: Subscription rates:
3 Months: $15

I don't know this one, but I do subscribe to DBDN

From the contract:
SUBSCRIPTION RATES
Subscription Term US Dollars Euros Sterling
3 Months $40 €37+VAT £25+VAT
6 Months $70 €65+VAT £43+VAT
12 Months $120 €111+VAT £75+VAT

So theese are the old prices. Therefore, eather way, its pretty good.

[EDIT] From the renewal page: (to get here you have to be a member)

DBDN Membership 3 Months $10
DBDN Membership 6 Months $30
DBDN Membership 12 Months $50

Obviously, theese prices are wrong too. Two 3 month terms (= to one 6 month term) cost $20, but the 6 month term costs $30. The 6 and twelve make sence together, but the super low 3 month price means you could be paying $40 a year.
Dylnuge
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Posted: 8th May 2004 16:46
Quote: "You know, Rich, I'm sure you get tired of people asking about the patch. But those of us who don't want to pay for DBDN get tired of you being so smug to anyone who dare ask a question. "


I do think that DBDN is an excellent service. However I find it hard to find out anything, and I'm *ON* DBDN. Please, make this all easier to use. Oh yeah, and when was the last time you posted somthing in the diaries? October 2003
Dylnuge
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Posted: 8th May 2004 17:00
First, sorry for making three posts, but since this thread has been divided into about 20 topics, I thought it nessicary.
Quote: "Well, I can't wait for the Downloadable version of DBP!"

I still like tangible goods, but I think that they should ship via UPS. A download takes 10 seconds, where as the mail order takes three weeks!
Zenincanin 14
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Posted: 8th May 2004 23:06
Well, yeah, I still want some more info on it, I know a couple languages and I think I wanna buy this since my birthday is on the 26th. I just wonder if it will be worth downloading- will I get models (enough), music, and other stuff to start me off?

Good Games Are Made by Powerful Coders
OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 8th May 2004 23:09
No, the demo only has one (or perhaps two) objects and most of the other media is, of course, missing.


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Zenincanin 14
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Posted: 8th May 2004 23:37
TCA, are you talking 'bout the demo- I'm talking 'bout the new full version download version coming out.

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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 8th May 2004 23:52
I thought you were talking about the full version from the demo...


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Zenincanin 14
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Posted: 9th May 2004 00:26
No, I'm talking about that new one your developing- y'know, the full version of DBP that you can download.

Good Games Are Made by Powerful Coders
OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 9th May 2004 00:33
Isn't that the demo with a valid serial code?


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Zenincanin 14
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Posted: 9th May 2004 00:37 Edited at: 9th May 2004 00:38
Well, TCA, look at the outro of the 16th newsletter:

Quote: "Outro
It has been another busy month, with some great new releases and games to test out. Next issue we will hopefully be covering the launch of DarkBASIC Professional Electronic - a new download-only version of our best-selling programming language, at a great discounted price. We also have three new commercial plugins on the horizon, so stay tuned! Got something you want thousands of people to read about in the next issue? Then get in touch! Email me: [email protected] or use our Feedback form. "


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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 9th May 2004 01:12
Ah fair enough... haven't read that for a while...


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Zenincanin 14
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Posted: 9th May 2004 01:21
Could I get some info on it?

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Ideajuice
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Posted: 9th May 2004 04:50
@Z-Interactive

I know a great many languages. I've been developing professionally for a great many years.

One of the main reasons I became interested in developing was that a long time ago, computers were fun.

Since then, they have evolved a great deal and gotten to the point where doing anything 'fun' was nearly impossible without also going through a lot of hair pulling and frustration (you may notice that a high proportion of Windows programmers are bald and crabby).

DarkBasic has put the fun back into programming for me. It's very easy to do extremely advanced things with only a few lines of code, and if you are just starting out, that can make the difference between sticking with it and learning more, or giving up and never coming back to it.

That's not to say that there won't be frustration. There are a lot of quirks and bugs in DarkBasic, and the manual leaves a lot to be desired, but nevertheless.. you will definitely have a lot of fun with it, and you will definitely be able to do things within a day or two that could take you many months to learn how to do in some other language.

As far as models, sounds, textures and the like are concerned, there are a fair number of them somewhere on these boards in the downloads section, and you can also find a lot of royalty free models, sounds and textures surfing the internet.

And if you are comfortable with other languages, you can eventually try extending the DB language by writing your own DLL. That should allow you to use it for many years without exhausting the possibilities.

I hope you decide to jump in and see what you can do with it. I can assure you that DB would be one birthday present that would not be sitting on a shelf unused somewhere in a month or two.

E Unibus Plurum
Static
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Posted: 9th May 2004 18:41
Quote: "I still like tangible goods, but I think that they should ship via UPS. A download takes 10 seconds, where as the mail order takes three weeks!"


It only took 6 days to get to me and i live in belgium. Plus you live in programming land so it should take even less time
Lost in Thought
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Posted: 10th May 2004 03:54
I hate that every month Richard Davey's newsletter post turns into a compliant section about DBP. I'm just as bad as everyone else at causing this . Sorry Richard I won't do it again. Keep up the great work on the newsletters. I hope from now on people will just start a DBP complaint forum or something.

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Dave J
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Posted: 10th May 2004 16:50
Let me now just speak aloud what we're all thinking. By creating a post complaining about complaints, you are yourself complaining and then contributing to the complaint problem and by me complaining about your complaint with the complaint issue, I am also a part of the problem and oh no, I've gone cross-eyed.


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Posted: 10th May 2004 16:53
I think you've been programming too much...


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Dave J
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Posted: 11th May 2004 12:51
Mainly because I've been programming a game where the main character is a programmer that must program multiple programs with a number of programming languages to defeat virii's that were programmed by an evil programmer.


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