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Geek Culture / Software Engineering

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Saikoro
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Posted: 25th Apr 2004 11:43
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Im 17 years old and am looking to go into a career of software engineering. I'll admit i know next to nothing about computer engineering, so since it seems there are many people here who work in the computer software making field, I was wondering if anyone could clarify what exactly a software engineer's duties and responsibilities are. Ive looked on websites, but all I get are things i already know. Basically, my understanding of software engineering is that they design how the software will work, like the layout and format of it all. I also understand that they dont actually write the code for software, they are just pretty much the guys who make the ideas, purposes, and how the software is going to work. I dont know if im wrong on any of this, if i am then correct me, but i still have a couple of years before i go to a college so an understanding of what they do would be nice.

Any help would be greatly appreciated, and once again if I am wrong, tell me and tell me what is right.

Thanks in advance,

-Vash the Stampede

Need help? Ask me via email, msn, aim, or forums and Ill see what I can do.

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BatVink
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Posted: 25th Apr 2004 11:58
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A Project Manager is responsible for writing the specs, though he usually enlists the assistance of senior programmers. A software engineer is simply another term for a programmer. Rather like Retail Floor Management is another name for a shelf stacker

That's how it is in the UK anyway.

BatVink
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Saikoro
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Posted: 25th Apr 2004 12:13
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Thank you for the clarification, BatVink. Now I am wondering, is there any additional responsibilities for a software engineer over a programmer though? Because here in the US the average software engineer gets paid an average of 5-10K more per year than the average programmer, so Im assuming that there are.

Once again, thank you.

-Vash the Stampede

Need help? Ask me via email, msn, aim, or forums and Ill see what I can do.

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adr
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Posted: 25th Apr 2004 13:49 Edited at: 25th Apr 2004 13:53
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A Software Engineer in my experience is basically a programmer who went to university There's not much difference other than that. Academics would argue that a Software engineer is more involved in the wider spectrum of the software life-cycle; requirements analysis, design, and then implementation (after all, that's where the lifecycle ends really, isn't it TGC? *playful nudge in the shoulder*)

As BatVink said though, the people involved in the pre-production process are usually higher up the chain, like the project managers and senior developers.

Speaking from personal experience, as soon as you move up the chain, your time is taken up with more non-programming tasks. For example, my new role involves managing a team of 6 developers. I need to see the bigger picture and make sure they all work together, even if they don't realise it. I probably only spend 40% of my time actually developing now.

I can tell you now that my promotion had nothing to do with a degree in software engineering. It's all about people skills - no-one likes an arrogant prick. If you demonstrate that you have the ability to be cool and friendly with people even though they piss you off then management will smile upon you.

Oh, and if it sounds like I'm degree bashing, then that is perhaps true - but don't think it's out of spite. I have a degree in software engineering, but I'm trying to say that degree doesn't automatically make someone good programmer.

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BatVink
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Posted: 25th Apr 2004 15:04 Edited at: 25th Apr 2004 15:05
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My advice is to get in at whatever level you can, and feel comfortable with. Then make the effort to make a bigger contribution to the team than is expected of you. You'll soon stand out from the "more than my job's worth" crowd, and you will be presented with opportunities to better yourself.

Adr is right, senior roles come from hands-on experience, not theory.

BatVink
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Saikoro
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Posted: 25th Apr 2004 16:01
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Thank you for your help. Im glad to get a professional opinion on this, Im assuming that although the jobs of software engineer and programmer are not that far apart, the degree still gets you SOMETHING of an edge. Because of your advice I'm going to work on my charisma a little more because there are people I know who may have been less qualified for a promotion than someone else, but their attitude got them the job.

Thanks for your advice

-Vash the Stampede

Need help? Ask me via email, msn, aim, or forums and Ill see what I can do.

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Elleomea
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Posted: 25th Apr 2004 16:18
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As far as I'm aware legally speaking, to be able to call yourself an engineer of any kind in many countries, you must have an engineering qualification (Eg. a BEng in the UK). The difference between an engineer and a normal bloke being that an engineer must take responsibility (and liability) for what they create. This is just based on things I've read, so may be inaccurate.

How much ham could a hamster stir, if a hamster could stir ham?
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adr
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Posted: 25th Apr 2004 17:19
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Elleomea > I remember one of our tutors saying something similar. "Software Engineering" is a bit of a loose term in that respect. It's true, we're not building bridges or sky scrapers - we aren't dealing with *real* materials and designing something to withhold human abuse. But, you could argue the same thing about Doctors. I seem to remember that medical doctors don't do a PhD and don't prepare a thesis, so in the strictest sense, they aren't doctors.... something like that anyway.

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BatVink
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Posted: 25th Apr 2004 18:07
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I'm classed as a consultant. I have no idea if that has any legal standing. The only engineers we have are Systems Engineers, they deal with the hardware. AFAIK, they don't have to be qualified in any respect.

BatVink
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Saikoro
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Posted: 26th Apr 2004 05:38
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Ok now I have a new question. If I did decide to go into the computer engineering field in general, does anyone know of any universities that could help me in that area? I live in the US, but I dont mind going international.

-Vash the Stampede

Need help? Ask me via email, msn, aim, or forums and Ill see what I can do.

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Arkheii
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Posted: 26th Apr 2004 06:19
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I wanna know the same thing. There aren't many good IT schools in my country, so I'm trying to convince my parents to let me study in the US when I get out of high school. Btw, programmers are paid by the hour, right?


"I am nobody's bitch. You are mine. I don't need to know you. You only need to know me."
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TheAbomb12
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Posted: 26th Apr 2004 08:09
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Quote: "Btw, programmers are paid by the hour, right?"


Depends on what kind of job you have...

If you are a contract programmer, you get paid Per Job, and then let go after the job is done.

Or you can just get a steady job a company and have to work with hourly pay.

whichever you prefer

Amist the Blue Skies...
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Van B
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Posted: 26th Apr 2004 12:50
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I'm an IT engineer and I have no degree, perhaps it's specific to certain countries. I think there's a world of difference between an engineer and a programmer though, a programmer would get a design brief and work solely on code, whereas an engineer would have to look at the whole project, from validation to design to implimentation.

If your lucky/unlucky (depending on how you look at it) and end up in a smaller company, you can often worm your way into great job security because you might find your the sole developer and end up making a good variety of systems that rely on you (and that kind of experience can be a springboard into IT management and the nice salaries that entails). Job security is a rare thing for most IT pro's.


Van-B


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Night Giant
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Posted: 26th Apr 2004 19:44
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Quote: "Ok now I have a new question. If I did decide to go into the computer engineering field in general, does anyone know of any universities that could help me in that area? I live in the US, but I dont mind going international."


you should probably just look through a LOT of college catalogues, and then throw out the ones that don't offer computer science/engineering (if that's really what you want). Then narrow it down to the ones the have the specific field of computer science/engineering you want. Check out their websites, look at the course descriptions and degree requirements and such, and see what you like.

I know there are a lot of schools for that kind of thing, to name just a few: bucknell, RIT (go RIT!), MIT, UNC at Chapel Hill, USC, UCSB, and many others.

oh, wow. insignificantpunks.cjb.net. we like orange treble clef notes, just for future reference.

no: website for progs yet.
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Saikoro
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Posted: 26th Apr 2004 20:52
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@Van B - Thats what I thought about the difference between software engineers and programmers, thank you for clarifying that. Also it seems that I may look for a small company, because I would like to have responsibility for my career, otherwise it may get boring and dull.

@NG - Thanks for your help on colleges and your suggestions. Although I cannot search them right now as I am not at my computer (im at school), I have heard of some of those colleges, and have in fact recieved flyers from many of them telling me what they offer. RIT does look fairly appealing to me, and is one of my top choices at the moment, but Im also considering Auckland University. Only having two choices of colleges isnt that good, so thank you for pointing me in the direction to find more colleges.

-Vash the Stampede

Need help? Ask me via email, msn, aim, or forums and Ill see what I can do.

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BatVink
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Posted: 26th Apr 2004 21:32
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I wouldn't restrict yourself by size of company, each have their merits. From experience, I prefer big companies, I have more freedom, and more scope for doing different work. Other people prefer smaller companies for exactly the same reason.

From experience, I wouldn't work in manufacturing again. Working for a vendor, I now get exposure to these companies without being involved with their "unique" way of working (what a kind way to put it!). Other people detest working in an environment where everyone is an IT professional. It's all down to personal preference, and a great deal of experience!

BatVink
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adr
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Posted: 27th Apr 2004 01:24 Edited at: 27th Apr 2004 01:24
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I hate to be pesimistic, and I'm not sure how the US IT market is, but if it's anything like the UK IT market, I don't think you'll be in a position to pick and choose your employer as a fresh-faced graduate. Take what you can get and then see how you can steer your career

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Saikoro
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Posted: 27th Apr 2004 02:09
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adr - Of course, I know for just about any job someone fresh out of school cannot choose where they want to work. I was referring more to after a few years of experience, moving into new firms and seeing where i could get the most out of my career. Thanks for the help, I need wisdom from the experienced right now

-Vash the Stampede

Need help? Ask me via email, msn, aim, or forums and Ill see what I can do.

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Dazzag
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Posted: 27th Apr 2004 02:40
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In the UK the IT industry is only now (after 2001) getting back on it's feet. According to some of my colleagues the US was also hit massively (used to be a great option), but I don't know how it's doing in the last 6 months or so.

And I would (now) go with the large company. I was doing pretty well in a small company (100 or so people), and had all the pay, respect, and resposibility I wanted. Then we get took over by a larger company (about 2500 employees). This was because the MD bottled it after 911 (we work in travel) and sold out basically. Overnight I go from someone high up in a department (development) that was the core of the business, to someone in one of many similar departments, of which most are not that important. And half of your mates are booted out. Hmmm. Nice security of big company in the first place if you ask me.

Just my 2p in the rapidly increasing manual labour type job that IT seems to be becoming.

Oh, and our PM's tend to be people who chat a lot to customers, get us to work out the design (inc. the full spec), scheduling, and programming with the customer, then just get the customer to sign on the line. And then they get a bonus (much like the salesmen). And it's pretty obvious they get paid better too. And we don't get paid badly either.

Slight rant there. Bloody work...

All in all, if your father/grandfather doesn't/didn't do funny walks and handshakes, or wear large goat heads with big horns, then it's best to be a bit of a genius and make something on your own. Just a little bit of a joke there.

Cheers

Ps. Heh, go to Uni, at the very least it gives you 3 or 4 years of getting totally wasted (and not much else) before having to face the next eternity of work. Heh, and I used to train newbies too

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
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Lord Ozzum
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Posted: 27th Apr 2004 02:42
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ozzy's a genius

Was Mr X

Welcome to the Electric Funeral!!! *creeps back into the Abyss*
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Elleomea
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Posted: 27th Apr 2004 03:19 Edited at: 27th Apr 2004 03:19
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From something I read recently it sounds as if the US IT market is in a pretty bad way, with many IT jobs being outsourced to countries where the cost of living (And so the cost of employment) is cheaper. Apparently a student with a computer science degree just leaving Uni (College over there) is likely to start their career earning less than a waiter.

How much ham could a hamster stir, if a hamster could stir ham?
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Saikoro
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Posted: 27th Apr 2004 04:36
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Well as far as a job goes, Im more interested in how my abilities are put to the test and how much I enjoy what I do rather than how much money I make. I know money is important, but Im sure I can manage to live happier easier if I do something I like, so even if it is in a bad shape, its not dead all over the world.

As far as programming/software engineering goes, what are the main languages used? Like what should I start getting my feet wet in before I head off to college?

-Vash the Stampede

Need help? Ask me via email, msn, aim, or forums and Ill see what I can do.

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Night Giant
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Posted: 27th Apr 2004 06:50
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also, if you have a career center or something go there and see if they know anything about a program called "Eureka!" (i'm pretty sure that's the name). I never used it, but apparently it's a college search engine where you can type in criteria such as location, degrees offered, majors/minors offered, cost, etc. and it will spit out a list of colleges for you with all the juicy details.

and when i talked to my counselor about it, he said to take courses in that field at the local CC, it looks good on the college transcript and you gain some knowledge, and it's really cheap (here it's $3 a unit for highschool students).

oh, wow. insignificantpunks.cjb.net. we like orange treble clef notes, just for future reference.

no: website for progs yet.
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adr
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Posted: 27th Apr 2004 11:29
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Languages: For big corporations I'd say Java and C++. For some reason, every large company has a thing for Java - it's a crap platform IMO. In your spare time learn ASP. Now, before someone says "why not PHP?" that's because a large company wouldn't know appropriate technology if it bit them on the arse. PHP pwnz, as some might say, but there's still a bit of an uphill struggle trying to convince multinationals that it is as effective, as well as being cheaper than ASP solutions.

So there you are, try and jump on a course that teaches either Java or C++ (or both, as they're pretty similar) and learn some Microsoft-only technologies for good measure

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Saikoro
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Posted: 27th Apr 2004 21:07
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NG- Thanks for telling me about that, I do believe there is a program that finds colleges for you based on certain criteria over here and you telling me just reminded me of it. I will see if they have any courses at the career center sometime this week.

ADR- I am starting to learn a bit of C++ already, so it is good that they use that. Today I have also signed up to take a class during my senior year that teaches both C++ and Java, so hopefully that will prepare me for further learning in college. Unfortunately, they want to throw HTML in that class as well but Ill see if I can bypass doing any of that. As far as Java is concerned, can you test it on one computer or do you need a network to see if it works?

Thanks

-Vash the Stampede

Need help? Ask me via email, msn, aim, or forums and Ill see what I can do.

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Dazzag
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Posted: 27th Apr 2004 21:49
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Quote: "Im more interested in how my abilities are put to the test and how much I enjoy what I do rather than how much money I make"

Aha. Tell me that again when you reach 30.

And yes, I wanted to program well past retirement age, loving every minute.... Now I wouldn't mind giving it all up and living in Florida (check out the UK property prices!) or something.

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
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Rassler
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Posted: 28th Apr 2004 16:11
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It's a bit similar to
IT Manager and IT Coordinator

A seperator was needed because if you had masses of experience and were right clever too, you demanded more money. Other IT people with less experience and less cleverness, would get jealous if you had the same job title as them but a higher wage, so they called you IT Coordinator or IS Manager to seperate you from the others.

It doesn't matter a jot to them that your doing the same job as there are and getting payed more, only matters that you don't have the same job title.

Then you get the next pay band which is Consultant. Except that in general an IT person that can does and an IT person that can't does Consultancy.

I'd say IMHO, but actually I think its a pretty well known fact these days.

Note. The 'DarkBasic' in my email is only so I can seperate my emails. Don't go thinking I'm a clever mega brain who wrote any of this stuff.
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Powersoft
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Posted: 28th Apr 2004 22:08
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hi im in Y9 in england and want to be a programmer. in my school we have somthing called "industry day" where we go to a place of work and shadow people around finding out infomation about it et. does anyone know any game/software developing companies in the uk that i could perhaps ring up and see if it were possible to shadow them.

(sorry for knicking your thread vash@@@)

Just to add to the confusion.
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Jess T
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Posted: 29th Apr 2004 01:07
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*Cough* Try TGC??

Jess.


Team EOD :: Programmer/Logical Engineer/All-Round Nice Guy
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Powersoft
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Posted: 29th Apr 2004 19:49
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Hi JessTicular i had that idea... search for rich begins

Just to add to the confusion.
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Saikoro
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Posted: 1st May 2004 03:22
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Today I looked into more colleges, internationally, and noticed that the countries I looked into put a severe restricion on foreign students (i.e. only allowed to work 15 hrs a week, required above average credits per year, etc.) I know many of you here are from countries other than the U.S., could you tell me if there are extreme restrictions placed on foreign students, or if these kinds of things are the norm for all students. Also, how are foreign students treated at the colleges you went to? Id like to have a heads up about how they are treated before going to one.

Thanks for your help.

-Vash the Stampede

Need help? Ask me via email, msn, aim, or forums and Ill see what I can do.

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Jess T
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In Australia, I'm not 100% sure, maybe not even 60% sure, but I beleive that international students' entry level grades have to be the equivelant of ours ( ie, I get 50 and get accepted, you get 50 and also get accepted etc ).

As far as treatment of forieng students ( by fellow students ) goes, well, almost everyone in Australia is from some other country anyway, lol, so you'll fit right in.

for treatment by teachers, I doubt you'll get looked down upon at all.

Jess.


Team EOD :: Programmer/Logical Engineer/All-Round Nice Guy
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DeepBlue
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Hi all

I've been in the commercial UK IT industry 16yrs now and here are my not so wise words of wisdom:

Unless you are new in the industry & wanting to work for a major corporation qualifications mean squat. Pratical experience is far more important than any qualification once moving through the industry in any field.

I would however say that any technical related college/university corse that covers maths & physics that has an element of problem solving associated with it would stand you in good sted in the IT industry.

There are many areas of IT all have thier pros & cons and really depends what kind of person you are and you can earn good money in all fields, listed a few & core skills (not listing technical ones):
Trainer - Good communication & people skills.
Programmer - Problem solving skills & teamworking.
Software Analyst - Business skills, problem solving & communication.
Hardware Engineer - Problem solving skills.
Support/Helpdesk - Communications skills.
Salesman - Ability to put gel in hair.

Specialisation is the key (knowledge is money), the fewer people know what you know then the more money you will make. Not that nice but true in any vocation.

The more specialisat areas of knowledge & skills you have the more money you will earn e.g.
Basic Programmer with core programming skills=low pay (£14K/$23K), free coffee but you'll have to empty your own waste paper bin.
Senior Business Analyst/Programmer with advanced business knowledge, high problem solving skills, programming knowledge & project management skills=salary negotiable (starting at £60K/$100K), pension, car, health package, share scheme etc.

I started in technical sales (haha trained as a programmer)then moved to hardware engineer/networking, specialised in networking/comms. Took a break so became an internal IT manager (if your good you do very little after a while, so i got bored), now hold a post as a Senior Network/Comms Consultant.

Remeber that at some point you will probably work for/with people that are inept, incompetent, dislike you or lick butt (polite wasnt it). Ignore them, let me them be and champion yourself.

Yep people skills help a lot, especially if you interact directly with customers. I'm pretty sure one of my directors hates me, but all my customers rate me very highly and I bring in large amounts of revenue so he keeps me because I make him rich.

Remember to constantly improve yourself, read books/try things/ask questions (especially the later).

Luck plays a large part in anyones career, but you can tilt in in your favour by being at that right place at the right time & knowing the right people etc etc.

I hope you find a role that you do enjoy in the IT industry, once your in you can shift about a fair bit so try a few areas.

Love & Kisses
Twynklet
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Jess T
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Posted: 2nd May 2004 15:33
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Inspireing bit of info there Twynklet

Jess.


Team EOD :: Programmer/Logical Engineer/All-Round Nice Guy
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