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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / .bsp ?

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Major Payn
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Posted: 13th May 2004 04:24
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Hi

I have alreay made several posts regarding features in DBP (I might get it). But I dont understand this .bsp thing, I know it is for maps but what kind of maps? can I create large outdoor .bsp levels? or is it only for small maps? also I heard that .bsp does collision for you, is this true? because if so I am definatly getting dbp! I never understood collision.

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CattleRustler
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Posted: 13th May 2004 05:27
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bsp maps are primarily indoor areas. Yes they can handle the collision for you automatically but be aware there is a known bug in dbp that may or may not be fixed in u6 where setting automatic bsp collision cancels out standard object collision. Examples of bsp maps are found in games like Halflife/TFC and Quake among others

dbp:try before you buy


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Major Payn
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Posted: 13th May 2004 05:49
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Yeah I have the demo of dbp installed, but my limited programing knownledge limits what I can test. Can the .bsp auto collision handle outdoor to indoor trasitions? meaning that can the player be walking down a street then enter a building without having to load the indoor scene? and can a .bsp editor create something on the lines of call of duty? that was something I was interested in because I am planning a WW2 game.

Thanks for the quick response I appreciate all the help I get here on these forums!

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CattleRustler
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Posted: 13th May 2004 06:50
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Quote: "can the player be walking down a street then enter a building without having to load the indoor scene?"


Yes in that you can simulate an outdoor portion using skymaps and mix it with indoor geometry, but really the whole bsp map is boxed in. It's the different textures used that provide the illusion (think Team Fortress, each of those maps has a mixture of indoor/outdoor)

I haven't played c.o.d. so I won't venture a guess.

Valve Hammer Editor 3.4 (free) is a decent bsp compiler by the way. Read the Ultimate BSP Thread (In a sticky in the 3d forum) for how to set it up, but it also is not the only bsp mapper out there.

cheers


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Major Payn
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Posted: 13th May 2004 06:58
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So is there a set limit to how big a .bsp level can be? because I remember "return to castle wolfenstien" had some rather large levels, some even had large out door areas, and according to this site, RTCW uses .bsp. Oh and I cant seem to find that thread you mentioned, were exactly is it?

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Ideajuice
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Posted: 13th May 2004 16:38
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I successfully used a .bsp level inside a normal .x level and had collision working with both, but that was using the Nuclear Glory collision DLL to handle the non .bsp collisions.

I also had a lot of trouble with the 'set reflection mapping' command making the BSP dissapear when used, and BSP levels can't be viewed from other cameras than the default it seems.

If you want to use lightmapped levels, check out Giles and forget about BSP levels until they are hopefully fixed.

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Major Payn
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Posted: 14th May 2004 01:25
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what is Giles? Is it a level modelling package, or just a lightmapper? I looks very good, but I need a way to create realistic convincing levels, and matrices just dont have enough options.

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Ideajuice
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Posted: 14th May 2004 01:36
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It's not really a modelling package. It has some basic commands for splitting up a model and merging levels together, but it is primarily 'just' a lightmapping program. It does load some fairly standard 3D file types though (3dS, OBJ and .x), so you can use whatever package you want to create models, and then lightmap them in Giles.

You may not find everything you want all in one tool.

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Ideajuice
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Posted: 14th May 2004 01:46
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Quote: "Valve Hammer Editor 3.4 (free) is a decent bsp compiler "


Just to clarify, Valve Hammer Editor is not the compiler. It comes with some compilers that turn it's native .map format into .bsp levels, but many people use a third party compiler from someone named "Zoner".

I just mention that because it is possible to use something like TrueSpace to create .map files directly, and then use the free and unrestricted Zoner tools to compile them into the .bsp format without ever using the Valve Hammer editor.

The .map file format is also a text based format with publicly available documentation, so if you wanted to roll your own converter that created .map files, it wouldn't be terribly difficult... there is a bunch of source code for creating .maps available around the net.

If you do decide to play with .bsp files, be sure to check out the BSP entities DLL. It allows you to retreive the tags embedded in a BSP file that tell you things like where the lights and other points of interest are. You can use this mechanism to automatically find key locations in your level from inside your code. You can easily embed such entities into the .bsp file in the Valve Hammer editor.

That DLL really should be an official part of the DBP BSP support.

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CattleRustler
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Posted: 14th May 2004 02:05
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the Zoner Halflife tools are mentioned in the Ultimate BSP Thread, and are recommended to be used instead of the compilers that come with the Valve Editor


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Major Payn
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Posted: 14th May 2004 02:12
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Ok, so what would yall guys recommend for me in terms of level makers? and I am not talking about matrix editors, I am looking for something to edit and manipulate vertices and faces plus create terrain. Is there anything out there like that? And cartography shop is out of the question, to expensive. I do have milkshape, thats good for regular 3D models but I am not sure how good it would be to create maps.

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Black Hydra II
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Posted: 14th May 2004 02:42
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You could do something like call of duty but don't get ahead of yourself there!

You have to really work up before making games such as that. If you don't want to wait I would suggest you wait until the fps editor is out. It will be a good tool if that is what you intended to make.

Making advanced games like that require a fair bit more skill of many of the more complicated concepts.

"Damn had to remake account!" direct quotation from previous account.
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Major Payn
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Posted: 14th May 2004 03:06
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Im not going to try and recreate call of duty, my game will be many times simpler. The FPS creator will not fit my needs, as it can not create outdoor environments, or so the newsletter says. Outdoor areas were going to be a big part of my game, so I need an editor that can create outdoor and indoor. I was wondering if there is such a editor and if so is it free? Oh and one more quetion, if I modelled a level in milkshape, could I convert it to .bsp? And it says that .bsp has automatic collision, does that mean, that for example I could create a player model and it would collide with the .bsp map, without me needing to code that?

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mm0zct
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Posted: 14th May 2004 03:25 Edited at: 14th May 2004 03:26
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dbp comes with a .x to .bsp compiler but i'm not sure how good it is

you can use different cameras with bsp but you need the command:

set bsp camera camnum

to tell the program which camera can see the bsp, only one at a time btw

edit: i have the bsp entity tools dll thing, i can host it for you to download if you want it?
just send me an email and i'll put it up

http://www.larinar.tk
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Major Payn
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Posted: 14th May 2004 03:37
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What kind of editor do you have? is the editor like a modelling package? does it have a limit to level sizes? I would send an email to download but I need more info.

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Major Payn
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Posted: 14th May 2004 03:41
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Oh woops read your post wrong, thought the word entity was editor lol , disregard my last post. But back to my other question, do I have to do any coding for collision, or will objects simply collide on there own? For example if I tossed 20 spheres into a .bsp level, and gave them a simple AI routine to mover around randomly, would I see them colliding on their own?

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CattleRustler
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Posted: 14th May 2004 03:43
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I use auto bsp collision with a bsp camera and I don't have to code that. It will slide and back track automatically. Other objects are a different story


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APEXnow
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Posted: 14th May 2004 03:54
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Quote: "If you do decide to play with .bsp files, be sure to check out the BSP entities DLL. It allows you to retreive the tags embedded in a BSP file that tell you things like where the lights and other points of interest are. You can use this mechanism to automatically find key locations in your level from inside your code. You can easily embed such entities into the .bsp file in the Valve Hammer editor.

That DLL really should be an official part of the DBP BSP support.

"


You can obtain this tool from my site in the tools section.


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Major Payn
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Posted: 14th May 2004 04:04
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Quote: "I use auto bsp collision with a bsp camera and I don't have to code that. It will slide and back track automatically. Other objects are a different story"


so how would you figure collision for other objects?

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Ideajuice
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Posted: 14th May 2004 06:01
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I remember the problem I was having with cameras and BSP's now.

I was trying to map a camera to a texture to create a mirror like effect. While the second camera was looking from the correct viewpoint, it's view of the BSP was always being clipped according to the main camera view.

If you moved to the side, the mirror view would cut off things you couldn't see, but which should have been visible from the other camera. This problem didn't happen with normal geometry.. just BSP geometry.

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CattleRustler
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Posted: 14th May 2004 06:31
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auto bsp collision cancels standard object collision. It's a known bug that I submitted and got confirmed. After that I decided to wait for U6 and work on some other stuff.


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mm0zct
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Posted: 14th May 2004 20:07
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@apex: yeah it's that zip from your site that i have, best get it from apex but i can help you use it if you need help

@Major Payn : there is a bsp maker on my site atm, gtk-radiand, the quake3 editor (will work for your rtcw also), i use this to make my bsp's but there may be a newer version somewhere. if you use this though you will need a pack/unpcking program for the pk3 files which you will also find on my site (packscape)

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CattleRustler
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Posted: 14th May 2004 21:19
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Load BSP command can find the wad and map within a pk3 file, no need to unpack, but you may need to extract the wad textures as 8bit tga files into the game directory.


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Ideajuice
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Posted: 14th May 2004 22:37 Edited at: 14th May 2004 22:39
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I just submitted a codebase entry that shows an example of using the BSP entities DLL.

It contains some useful functions to make it easier to use the DLl, and it will also print out a formatted text file with all of the entity information for easy perusal.

Hope this is helpful.

[EDIT] - CR .. in cleaning up the code to post as an example, I discovered that the textures work OK from within the WAD file as long as they are .tga in the WAD. I was just using some of the standard half life BSP's to test as my own are a little buggered up at the moment.

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CattleRustler
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Posted: 15th May 2004 00:12
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Yeah, I wasn't sure if Apex mentioned that that was fixed or not, a while back. I haven't done much dbp coding/bsp stuff in a while. Thanks for the info.


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APEXnow
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Posted: 15th May 2004 02:13
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CR, I've basically put a lid on the whole BSP issue. The collision issues were just failing to reach what I required, specially with the BSP COLLSION X,Y,Z commands so I've basically taken the same step as you and waiting for U6 before jumping on the BSP wagon.

Although with all my stuff on Cartography Shop and also working on my Thrust Engine, this is keeping me busy.

Although it's a long read, most of my findings are in the Ultimate BSP thread, found in one of the sticky threads in 3Dimensional Chat.

Paul.


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CattleRustler
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Posted: 15th May 2004 02:29
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thanks
I'll have a read this weekend.


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Major Payn
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Posted: 15th May 2004 03:53
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Ok so what is the best level editor out there right now for creating outdoor and indoor scenes? and dont say Cshop because I am not going to buy something, Dbpro is going to drain my pockets anyways. I want to create levels that are close to Deadly dozen, Medal of honor allied assault, Call of duty, or Battle field 1942. I know all of those games have different kinds of levels, but is there an editor that can create large levels such as BF1942 but also be complex enough to create towns and villages with indoor locations within that large map? because thats what I want, large area with a town in the middle, with buildings that you can enter and exit.

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mm0zct
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Posted: 18th May 2004 02:55
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try deled or truespace3.2 both are free and good, i recomend deled as ot makes it easier to texture and you have more control over primatives

http://www.larinar.tk
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