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Geek Culture / "10% Complete"

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BatVink
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Posted: 27th May 2004 15:02
I'm seeing very often the phrase "10% complete" (or similar) when people are referring to their projects. I'm handing out free advice here, which may lead to contentious debate, but...

If your project is less than a third complete, you shouldn't have any screenshots, models or code to show for it!!!

Why this post? Well, how many WIPs to you see making it through to Program Announcements? 1 in 10, 1 in 20?

I guess a lot of coders work themselves up into a frenzy over a fantastic idea, start throwing it down and very quickly get tangled up in a mess of code that doesn't do much, and isn't go anywhere fast. Most importantly, there's no focus, no plan of action, no structure to the progress and no milestones.

I'm sure the more experienced coders around here will agree...take a step back and plan! I'd love to see all the WIPs making it to completion. If you can add a "To Do" list to your WIP post, you're already a huge step towards making it.

The Caveat: A Proof of Concept is an entirely different Kettle of Fish. There's nothing wrong with trying out a few technical aspects to prove you can complete the project. And sketches, demo models etc are all part of the planning process.

Any other thoughts?

BatVink
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Kentaree
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Posted: 27th May 2004 15:07
Quote: "If your project is less than a third complete, you shouldn't have any screenshots, models or code to show for it!!!"


I dont entirely agree. When I'm making a game, I like to have a working graphics engine from the start to make it easier to test it as it progresses. Usually I just use cubes or spheres though, which dont make for very impressive screenshots

Its not a bug, its a feature!
Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 27th May 2004 16:31
10% could be a lot of work if your game has 100 levels. What you really mean is don't post a cube on a matrix. That's only about 1% finished though.

BatVink
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Posted: 27th May 2004 18:08 Edited at: 27th May 2004 18:08
Quote: "I like to have a working graphics engine from the start"

If you have written the engine then I would consider your project well under way, and quite worthy of "WIP" status. You certainly wouldn't post it at a paltry 10% complete at this stage, you've done the hard work!

Quote: "10% could be a lot of work if your game has 100 levels"

Not at all, see Kentarees post. You would have an engine of some kind that functions over the levels. 98 of the levels would be the last step in most cases.

BatVink
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Ian T
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Posted: 27th May 2004 18:11
It varies. Look at qtest1. That was only about 30% complete, but there were weapons, maps, and full online deathmatch. There's no clear-cut guideline for how to develop something.

Shadow Robert
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Posted: 27th May 2004 18:37
Batfink to be honest i don't see how anyone can say that development is Nth % complete anyways.

in my experience when you develop a game or software title you have yourselves a todo list of sorts; or rather a rough outline of what should be in it, plus story and such.

Although the engine could have say 10 features, technically thos features can expand and contract at any time for any reason. Perhaps a new technique allows you to make your shadows from hard to soft, or maybe new networking allows you to expand your users and data carried between them.

Even so that 10% complete would only mean you've finished 1 feature, which again usually isn't true because most people go back an edit features so they can get them working with other features.
(you can't paste together 10 tech demos and expect them to work out of the box, it does take time and effort to achieve them all at once).

I think when people say how much of the game is done they should really speak more on how far in to development they are.
Rather than saying - well we have 10% of the engine complete, they should say. well we have a working engine which currently has such'n'such features.

Sam (Everwhat) 's post on deathbed really is more of how things should be presented to the community. Although yes everyone works differently, there isn't really anyways to say how much is honestly completed in clean percentages and such.
Anything could change at anytime.

adr
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Posted: 27th May 2004 19:46
Raven raises a good point - it's the old 80-20 rule which can be applied to pretty much everything in the world. In software, it usually means that you spend 80% of your time doing the last 20% of the app. So, it is very difficult to say I am x percent through this project given that progress is logarithmic (sp) in 95% of cases...

Something tells me that these people who say that they have completed 23.5% of the project aren't using any real metrics

If you were MEANT to understand it, we wouldn't have called it 'code'
CattleRustler
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Posted: 27th May 2004 19:52
just use the K.I.S.S rule (Keep it simple, stupid) and just say:

"I am halfway done" or "I am working on it" or my favorite "It's almost done! Now go away!"


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Andy Igoe
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Posted: 27th May 2004 20:17 Edited at: 27th May 2004 20:18
I dont see what the problem is: 10% is far quicker and simpler to read than "I havent done much yet but I did a bit and that wasnt much".

OK so it is an estimate, but seeing as most projects dont get finished anyway it hardly matters.

What annoys me is reading about anything at all that doesnt have something good to show yet.

I dont want to know what you are going to do, but I like to see what you've done.


God created the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.
Jeku
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Posted: 27th May 2004 20:33
Here's a different slant: If I'm working on a game that I think people would enjoy, but I'm not completely sure, would it be okay for me to flesh out a small percentage, get some screenies, and post them with a summary of how the gameplay will be? That could be considered, depending on the depth of the game, to be 5-10% completed.

I would consider this a good idea as people will give their usually constructive feedback. This would disuade some from working on it any longer if everybody thought it was bunk.

Powersoft
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Posted: 27th May 2004 20:59
nice to see you have changed your sig Jeku

Im not a rubbish programmer...Everyone else is just better than me....
If we were supposed to sing we would look like Kylie...
BatVink
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Posted: 27th May 2004 22:25
@Raven: That's exactly my point, you've worded better than I did!. Basically, if you don't have a plan, your 10% is probably more like 1% by the time you finish.

@adr: Yes, agreed. I work to the 80/20 rule. By the time you've finished 80%, the 20% is generally irrelevant anyway, as the goals have changed.

To sum it up...10% of nothing will generate a divide by zero error.

BatVink
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Damokles
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Posted: 28th May 2004 00:16
Quote: "
OK so it is an estimate, but seeing as most projects dont get finished anyway it hardly matters."


seeing it ? Well, the last thing I got in WIP got finished, but I didn't get it in the thread, because it got auto-locked two days before (yeah those 30 days).
1) I think that auto-lock shouldn't be in the WIP
2) There may be other projects that were finished, but not published in here
3) Why didn't I get it in the programm annoucement ? Because the programm can't be used correctly without the lesson. For it's meant to be for my pupils (and they liked it )

Whatever ... I believe these 10% can make sense, if you make some kind of check-list if 10% of it is checked , then you can say 10% of the points I wanted to follow are made. (but the check-list shall be in the thread)

- Mind the gap -
David T
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Posted: 28th May 2004 00:41
Don't get me started on the subject of overorganised team requests....



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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 28th May 2004 00:50
Yeah Japers Capers was autolocked, and I couldn't add my updates to it. I think that WIP should not be Autolocked.

DARKGuy
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Posted: 5th Jun 2004 03:23
I didn't read the whole post...but this...

Quote: "I'm seeing very often the phrase "10% complete" (or similar) when people are referring to their projects."


Is guided right to my Tank Master post right? ...

:: Pentium 300 Mhz, 8Mb video card, 64Mb RAM, 5 gb & 1.6 gb HD's, W98SE, Sound Blaster AWE 32 ::

http://darkguy.redgaming.net
BatVink
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Posted: 6th Jun 2004 01:16
DARKGuy, it's not a poke in the ribs for anyone, it's more a post for guidance.

There's a few people disagree with me here, but I have the courage of my convictions. As a technical consultant (OK, Analyst Programmer if you want the old fashioned term) of 14 years, I've seen many projects come, go and fail. I'm just trying to share some of my wisdom, which I got the hard way!

I hope you do finish your project, good luck!

BatVink
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soapyfish
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Posted: 6th Jun 2004 01:39
I always used to think "how do I know what percentage of a project I've finished" and when you think about it. When you finish a game, you always go back and add something (or at least I do.) So from now on if its the WIP board I'll describe what I've done with whatever screenshots I've got(people always read pots with screenshots). And if it was, say, on the DBP board I might just say, I've done 90% of a game and need help on one little bug so people know what stage I'm at but don't tell me to go post on another board.
p.s. I'm currently doing a 3d re-make of missile command and am about 17.382547502654956047% complete.........(approximately)

WAS DOING AN FPS BUT RAN AWAY AND STARTED ON MISSILE COMMAND INSTEAD.

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