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Geek Culture / A in depth discussion about fate

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Zeal
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Posted: 4th Jun 2004 01:32
Lets say before you die, youre handed a roll of film. You lay it out across the table and see that the film depicts your life from beginning to end. From the second you were born to the second before you died.

Now lets say youre given the opportunity to lead a new life, and be born again. However you have no memory of your previous life, and the environment around you will be exactly as it was when you were born the first time. Same parents, same time, same hospital, ect... Even the most seemingly irrelevant details, like a grain of sand in the doctors shoe, will be just as they were when you were born in your first life.

So you live out your second life, completely oblivious to your new 'incarnation'. And at the end, just before you die, youre handed a roll of film. Is it, or is it not EXACTLY the same as before?

Think long and hard about that question before you read ahead. Im going to give you my personal answer next, scroll down...

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My answer is yes. Assuming you could control EVERY possible detail of existence, right down to the genetic and molecular level, and you gave the same starting conditions to any object, it would always suffer from the same 'fate'.

We can see a simple example of this in the realm of computer programs. Lets say you wrote a golf program where a ball rolled across a putting green. Now assuming the tiny variables like the wind, variations and imperfections in the grass, ect... remained constant. If you set the ball up in the same position every time, and hit it at the same angle and with the same force, the ball would ALWAYS end up in the EXACT same resting position. In fact, you could even PREDICT where the ball will end up before it even gets there (perhaps well talk more about that later).

So what does this all mean? How is it related to fate? Assuming you agree with me about the above 'reincarnation' example, it means that no matter how many times we were to live our life, it would ALWAYS turn out one way and one way only. Is this not the very definition of fate? Perhaps fate isnt a angelic being living in the clouds, writing our destiny out on a piece of paper, but rather fate is simply the result of an unchangeable equation.

So why cant this equation be changed? Well first look at the constants in this world (natural laws like gravity, ect...), they never change and no man can control them right? Now look at every other 'non constant' in this world (other people, ect...). Are they not suffering from the same 'fate' as we are? Therefor how can they control their lives? How could they make a random choice that effects us?

Still some sceptics out there? Allow me to present my time travel example. Lets say you could go back in time, only when you got there, you became yourself (as you were at that time) with no knowledge of the 'future'. The past up until that point would be just as it was the fist time around. So, still think you could make a choice that would screw up fates plan? Sure you THINK maybe you could make a random choice, but if your 'choice' is based on all the factors in your life up until that point (which are the same because you just traveled back in time), your 'decision', no matter how random it seems, will always be the same.

Thus, fate is real. We are all victims of our surrounding environment. We NEVER have a choice. Discuss

All you need is zeal
Jeku
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Posted: 4th Jun 2004 01:47 Edited at: 4th Jun 2004 01:49
At first I would say I agree, but then I thought back at all the times where I've had to make a split-second decision based on no preconceptions, merely random. If I were to go back in time and be faced with the same split-second decision, I truly believe it could go either way.

EDIT: Even though your argument does show fate as being very real. That's a very interesting topic.

TheAbomb12
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Posted: 4th Jun 2004 01:49
Quote: "If I were to go back in time and be faced with the same split-second decision, I truly believe it could go either way"


but you would have no memory of the events, so your thought process would be the same as the first event.

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CattleRustler
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Posted: 4th Jun 2004 01:50
unless of course something you have no control over like OTHERS changes what they did or said - then this whole theory goes kaput, no?


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Ian T
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Posted: 4th Jun 2004 01:51
From a humanist point of view, yes, it would go exactly the same. Every little twist and turn in your life, everything you might think of as random, or instinctive, is really just determined by everything your five senses pick up and your brain processes, from small to large, throughout the course of your life.

I don't have a humanist point of view and I say no. I believe that people are born with souls, something seperate from the 'mind' (IE brain). The soul determines what the mind will turn into, so to speak. That's how I see it.

I'll also point out that from a humanist point of view (the one you're using), it's not fate. It's just how things happen to progress. Cause and effect.

hexGEAR
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Posted: 4th Jun 2004 01:52 Edited at: 4th Jun 2004 01:54
i've often thought of the same thing and i totally agree

jeku:

ok, in computer terms, say these split-second choices you made are random, to be more specific psuedo-random like the rnd() function in dark basic. So basically every time you run the program you get the exact same random sequence of numbers again and again (which even end up repeating itself after some time). The only way to break the sequence would be to randomise the seed. So basically everytime you reset your life, you start with the same seed and generate the exact same random choices as you did before... you feel me?

Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 4th Jun 2004 01:56
What about events that are exactly 50/50? There must be some.....

TheAbomb12
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Posted: 4th Jun 2004 01:56
Quote: "unless of course something you have no control over like OTHERS changes what they did or said - then this whole theory goes kaput, no?"


If other people are under the same theory then the same situation would apply to them; it would be exactally the same.


I share this view, but its sort of misleading to call it fate: its more like cause and effect.

You trully have no "Freewill" in appearance, you might think you have the ability to make choices, but there are causes behind your choices. You have no control over your attitute, your attitide was shaped from your childhood by your parents and friends;

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Ian T
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Posted: 4th Jun 2004 01:58
Tch tch. Is there nobody here who believes in anything past the physical mind ?

Jimmy
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Posted: 4th Jun 2004 02:02 Edited at: 4th Jun 2004 02:10
What if you come back as a WOMAN?

And what about those reincarnated war heroes. The little kids with dreams of being shot. Those are real.

But anyway, by your same reasoning there IS NO fate, because we CAN'T live the same life again, so what is there to compare this life to? Everyone's living one life, straight through, no way of knowing if things would work out the same as before.. or after..

We have our choices NOW and never again. If we decide to eat at Wendy's instead of McDonald's isn't fate. Both choices have their own result, but what made you choose one over the other was your stomach screaming for mercy from the filthy PUKE FOOD that is McDonald's, but I still go to McDonald's sometimes

What i'm trying to get at is that I believe there is no fate, because everyone only gets one chance at life and because it conflicts with my religious beliefs, so having no control over our lives is just a ridiculous notion


EDIT: Right here Mouse And I agree with you buddy, it's about SOUULLL power. I believe we lived before this life and brought that soul with us. Our minds may not recall, but our souls are certainly aware.

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Jeku
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Posted: 4th Jun 2004 02:19
I agree with you too, Mouse, which is why I don't believe that man will ever be able to teleport himself from one destination to another, even if we figure out how to transfer every last physical particle.

Our physical body and souls are different--- but this doesn't mean we wouldn't live the same life over again given the same base properties.

TheAbomb12
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Posted: 4th Jun 2004 02:20
what is a soul?

define soul...

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Ian T
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Posted: 4th Jun 2004 02:24
TheAbomb-> You're heading in the wrong direction .

Jimmy-> Cheers !

JeKu->

Quote: "which is why I don't believe that man will ever be able to teleport himself from one destination to another, even if we figure out how to transfer every last physical particle."


Weird, I've never thought of that in relation to the human soul. We've certainly never been able to make an operating human from scratch yet . If you're talking about the deleting-and-recreating 'teleportation' process, then yeah, I sure as bleeding blazes would never do that. It's destroying one life and creating another for day to day use... urgh... might seem a bit dramatic, but I find that to be an utterly despicable concept. I hope we never 'advance' so far as to treat life, the most precious of all things, with such disrespect.

Zeal
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Posted: 4th Jun 2004 02:28
Hehe lets not turn this into a religion vs anti religion thred. Yes if you factor in the 'magic' variable, anything is possible. However, if there is some magical/spiritual factor that changes our lives according to a higher power, we are still unaware of it. Thus if we arent aware of a splitting path, isnt the path we end up on always constant?

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Jeku
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Posted: 4th Jun 2004 02:31
Quote: " Hehe lets not turn this into a religion vs anti religion thred."


Who said anything about religion? Can't someone believe in a soul and be non-religious?

Jimmy
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Posted: 4th Jun 2004 02:36
No, that's not what we're saying, at least not me anyway.

Our soul is our connection to the higher power. Choices may be influenced by this power. Like say the difference between right and wrong. I for one have made MANY choices that i've KNOWN were wrong, but I just did them anyway, usually because they were easier.. or "cool". If a higher power were in control, I know I'd have to be a lot more pleased with my life

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Zeal
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Posted: 4th Jun 2004 02:36
Heh I understand. Perhaps Spirituality would have been a better choice of words?

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TheAbomb12
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Posted: 4th Jun 2004 02:42
Soul can be used in a non Spitial way...

Older philosiphers often refered to the mind as "Soul", or it can take on a totally different meaning...this is why I asked them to clarify. It has nothing to do with anti-religious debate.

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Jimmy
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Posted: 4th Jun 2004 02:44
Yeah I mean the spiritual soul that can't be defined by our minds

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TheAbomb12
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Posted: 4th Jun 2004 02:57
well what is it then?

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Zeal
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Posted: 4th Jun 2004 02:59
Well and like I said, if youre talking about a magical/spiritual force that cant be "defined by our minds", how are we ever truly aware of it? If we arent aware of something, we cant have any control over it. So were left with every other non magical/spiritual force in this world. And I think ive made a pretty strong case here that we dont have any control over those forces either.

The result? No choice.

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Jimmy
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Posted: 4th Jun 2004 03:02
There's a difference between being aware and being able to define.

If you punch a baby in the face, they won't be able to tell you what happened, but they still felt it.

But I suppose if you're not open to the possibility, then it's impossible to be aware. Kinda how it works.

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Zeal
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Posted: 4th Jun 2004 03:12
But youre not talking about punching babies in the face. Youre talking about a higher being making a choice for you. Lets say that when this higher being made this choice, your life DID in fact branch off twards a different direction. Since youll never see this 'other' path, the one path before you is all youll ever know. Therefor is it any different than the other, more scientific, uncontrollable fate weve been talking about?

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Jimmy
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Posted: 4th Jun 2004 03:17
Quote: "But youre not talking about punching babies in the face. Youre talking about a higher being making a choice for you."


Actually I WAS talking about punching babies in the face.
And I was NOT talking about a higher being making choices FOR you.

I think you may have missed my post at: 3rd Jun 2004 16:36

If I was not in control of my life, I KNOW it would be different.

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Zeal
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Posted: 4th Jun 2004 03:32
"Our soul is our connection to the higher power. Choices may be influenced by this power."

I said youre not talking about punching babies in the face not because I didnt read your post, but because it was irrelevant (or at the least off topic). The more relevant point you made was that you feel this higher being at least 'influences' your choices. Now if that 'influence' sways you from your 'default' choice, then yes, this higher being IS making choices for you. So all that ive said above still applies.

Try this. Phase out the spirituality factor for a second (at least pretend that the higher power isnt 'influencing' you temporarily). Then read my post again. You should come to the conclusion that based on purely scientific principles, there is no such thing as choice. Now go ahead and add the spirituality factor back in. Youre not in control of it, 'god' is. So youre right back to square one. No choice.

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Jimmy
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Posted: 4th Jun 2004 04:22
But it was relevant. I was merely trying to prove that not everything can or needs to be defined by the mind. That some things exist whether we like it or not.

Scientifically your theory makes sense. I'm not arguing that.

There's a difference between influence and complete control. Perhaps you'd like another analogy if my previous was too violent
I'd like to think that most parents raise their kids to not do drugs, but lots of kids do them anyway, so who's in control there? All their life their parents have told them how BAD drugs are. They were taught in school the defects of consuming these substances. But they still choose to defy all those people. Who's choice is that?

When everything we know and understand is telling us to shift one way, yet we go the opposite, that is choice. There is no fate.

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TheAbomb12
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Posted: 4th Jun 2004 04:38 Edited at: 4th Jun 2004 04:39
Quote: "When everything we know and understand is telling us to shift one way, yet we go the opposite, that is choice. There is no fate."


It is the appearance of a choice...

Lets look at a made up person...(we will call im jimmy :p)

Through out his childhood, jimmy is told that drugs are bad by his parents and teachers.

However, Jimmy gets to High School and his peers there claim that "Everyone is doing it" and "Its not as bad a people make it sound". Still however, Jimmy dosent take the drugs.

Then one day, Jimmy gets in a fight with his parents. He feels that his parents are too controlling, so he makes a "choice" to do something independent of thier scruitiny. He decides to do drugs...

Now, is this really Jimmy's desision? is he being influced by his peers and has his angered state affected this at all?

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Jimmy
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Posted: 4th Jun 2004 04:49
Exactly, he felt his parents were to controlling, so he decided to make a choice on his own.

I understand you guys are trying to get deep and intellectual. We could go back and back and back and back and around and over and through and still end up where we started. Both sides in this discussion could be considered wise in their own rights and I don't mind leaving it at that.

So yes, It's a pretty mind-numbing concept. Congrats to Zeal for blowing our minds

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Zeal
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Posted: 4th Jun 2004 06:21
But Jimmy, he didnt make the choice. It was his environment and everything he experienced since the time he was born that made him 'chose' the way he did.

Bah anyway im sure im not the first person to come up with this. I never really noticed it until recently, but I think I was subconsciously effected by the movie "The Matrix". All that crap about the oracle, that scene where the french program (Merosomething?) was talking about causality, all of it went right over my head. But now it really makes all the sense in the world to me.

Maybe the oracle character in the movie wasnt a 'god'. Maybe she was just so flipping smart she could make a VERY educated (if not perfect) guess about what was going to happen next. She was super intelligent (on a level we humans cant even begin to understand), so perhaps she was able to calculate all the variables in this 'fate' equation, and predict the future.

Remember when the oracle met with neo in the second movie? She was sitting on a bench and offered neo a piece of candy. Neo goes "Do you already know if im going to take it?". The oracle responds "Wouldnt be much of an oracle if I didnt.". But then neo asks the most obvious question "If you already know if im going to take it, how can I make a choice?". And the oracle says "You didnt come here to make the choice, youve already made it, youre here to understand why youve made it.".

You see, neo doesnt really chose whether he wants the candy in the second or two after the oracle offers it to him. Neos personality traits (among other things) that have been developing since he was born have made the choice for him (maybe he just likes candy too much to say no, maybe hell try and screw fate and spit the candy out, who knows). The point is youd have to be able to analyze EVERY conceivable detail about neo in order to make a prediction about what he would do when offered a piece of candy. The oracle can do just that.

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Arkheii
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Posted: 4th Jun 2004 06:58
Chaos theory.

Jimmy
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Posted: 4th Jun 2004 10:33
And that's a movie.

Nobody can calculate what someone is going to do next, because people in general are random. You can't put a random number in a formula and expect it to work out the same every time. What it comes down to is whether or not you believe people have a basic instinct which may contradict with everything they know or comprehend. Look at mankind, the diversity of personality and culture. If fate exists than eventually or even from the very beginning we should all be the same. Whether it began with Adam and Eve, or if we evolved from monkeys, we would have started under the same circumstances, thus reacting to the same influences and situations as everyone else. Somewhere down the line choices had to be made which were out of the ordinary.

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TheAbomb12
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Posted: 4th Jun 2004 10:42
Exactally Zeal, there is no way you can change your choice or make a "choice" because you have already made it.

However, I was thinking about this before the matrix...

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TheAbomb12
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Posted: 4th Jun 2004 10:45 Edited at: 4th Jun 2004 10:49
Quote: "Nobody can calculate what someone is going to do next, because people in general are random"


you know what the word "random" means? It means unpredictibiliy...

We can predict some items but, We cannot predict some things because we don't have 100% knowledge of the Universe.

Quote: "You can't put a random number in a formula and expect it to work out the same every time."


Its not that the number is "Random" (its the same for an indivudual event in time), but its the fact that we don't know what the number is all the time.

Quote: "thus reacting to the same influences and situations as everyone else. "


where you born in the garden of eden jimbo? where you born in 200, 000 BC?

no...then you cannot possiblly have the same reactions...

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Yian
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Posted: 4th Jun 2004 10:54
Time for my opinion....
What if there actually are 50/50 choices where the choice might be affected for example by the percentage of oygen in the air we breathe?

I gots to go.
Jimmy
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Posted: 4th Jun 2004 11:01 Edited at: 4th Jun 2004 11:02

I think i'd prefer to keep this between Zeal and I... or someone else with any intelligent input...

Quote: "you know what the word "random" means? It means unpredictibiliy...

We can predict some items but, We cannot predict some things because we don't have 100% knowledge of the Universe."


Yep

Quote: "Its not that the number is "Random" (its the same for an indivudual event in time), but its the fact that we don't know what the number is all the time."


YEP

Quote: "where you born in the garden of eden jimbo? where you born in 200, 000 BC?

no...then you cannot possiblly have the same reactions..."


I was SIMPLY (very very simply) applying Zeal's theory of fate to the beginning of mankind. Without someone acting outside the box, nothing would change and we would all be the same. Most of us would not exist or even knew we existed. It's impossible to think that everyone acts according to their current surroundings, the way they were brought up and weather patterns.


John: If there were exact 50/50 choices our heads would explode. We'd never ever decide one way or the other

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TheAbomb12
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Posted: 4th Jun 2004 11:03
what ever happens is going to happen...
remember, cause and effect influnce your biology, phycology, and attitude, down to the atomic and molecular level.

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TheAbomb12
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Posted: 4th Jun 2004 11:06
Quote: "Without someone acting outside the box, nothing would change and we would all be the same."


what influenced them to think "outside the box"?

Quote: "nothing would change and we would all be the same"


No, it wouldn't there where people all over the globe during the dawn of mankind (Homo Sapien)

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Yian
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Posted: 4th Jun 2004 11:10
Jimmy:I meant 50/50 where it's not up to us...

I gots to go.
Jimmy
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Posted: 4th Jun 2004 11:13 Edited at: 4th Jun 2004 11:14
Tell me, what was the first cause? How could an infinite loop in its beginning stages become what we are today?

Would you like another example? How about the inventor? He was born in the same circumstances as everyone else in his time, why then does he invent and not the guy next door, or his brother? Creating things nobody could have ever dreamed of, yet he did. Oh, that must be cause and effect, everyone get on the cause and effect train! It's making lightbulbs, computers, cars and nuclear bombs! OH LOOK, CREAM PUFFS!!!


Quote: "what influenced them to think "outside the box"?"


You tell ME, because it certainly wasn't the butterfly he stepped on!

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Eric T
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Posted: 4th Jun 2004 11:26
How would it be possible to live out your birth exactly the same way? The people, you parents and doctor could not be the same...unless the were granted a second life also... and thus lived it out the completely same way. thus meaning you would have to live it out the same way creating a paradox chain.

"I like you... when the world is mine, you death shall be quick and painless"

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TheAbomb12
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Posted: 4th Jun 2004 11:29 Edited at: 4th Jun 2004 11:35
Imagine there is no Universe. There is nothing. The only thing that exists is void.

Then the "Big Bang" happens (the start of the universe). We will Call the Big Bang the Primary Cause.

Lets say that the Primary Cause generates 10 effects. Someone(An imaginary person) with complete knowledge of the universe knows what these effects are and concludes that there is no other way that this event could have happend.

So those 10 effects generate causes (very very short time difference from the Primary Cause); there are now hundreds of diffent causes in the universe, but the imaginary person can clearly see what the causes of the effects are.

You can continue this pattern until the dawn of humans. Humans are basically cells; cells are basically molecules; molecules are basically chained atoms; and atoms are predisposed to be affected by cause and effect (atoms don't "think outside the box").

Now, I can go through the early man's life and pick out significant events, but it all boils does to action and reaction.

Take for instance your statement about the inventor, why does he invent things that others don't.

Well, simply put: others arn't affected by the same causes as the inventor(Im about to make up senarios). Perhaps the Inventor was born with a few more brain cells; perhaps his parents brought him up very very well; or perhaps they didn't and the only reason he invented anything was because he had an intense passion for science which might or might not have been a result of the inventor seeing some mechanical contraction (which inspired curiosity).

If he hadn't been passionate about science, would he invent anything, most likley, no. But, since he DID become passionate about it, his passion led to a series of events (to long to list) that would have guided him to his "Choice" to invent something.

what will happen has happend already; You cannot change facts, even the ones in the future. The Inventor will become passionate about science not because he "chooses to", but because he sees something that spikes his curiosity.

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Jimmy
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Posted: 4th Jun 2004 11:40
But everything you just said relies on this big bang that never happened

AAnnnyyway, we successfully managed to travel back to the beginning of the universe and I think it's time we agreed to disagree. I know i'm right and you know you're right. Oh well. I'm not about to lose sleep over this

It was fun and perhaps some readers learned a thing or two from us. Hopefully more from me, the one who is RIGHT

It is TIME for bed.

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Blue Shadow
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Posted: 4th Jun 2004 13:33
Jimmy the big bang did exist. Scientists have proved it. They reckon that they have found matter that is still left over from it.

But heres a mind blowing question. Where did the universe come from? If it was created by the big band, what caused that? Where did that come from? It hurts my head just thinking about it. If you look at the Matrix films from the point of programming and philosophy forgetting the technological restraints of the present day and just imagine then their theory is perfectly possible. We could all be controlled by a huge program that we are all part of. "Choice is just an illusion created by those with power for those without." It just goes back to cause and effect.

Now my personal opinion. I think that choice does exist and that you are free to live your life as you wish. I don't believe that we are controlled by anything or that we take prescripted pathways. Infact i do sort of believe in those but that would only be in the context of the matrix films. In the "real world" however, i would say that we are free to make our own choices.

Anyway just my 2 cents, Cheers,

Mike


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Yian
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Posted: 4th Jun 2004 15:19
I agree.In the real world that's the way it is.

I gots to go.
Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 4th Jun 2004 15:54
Inventors probably just know the right things to make their inventions. Actually it's the same as making a computer game. We all make different games. We make the games that we like best. We have different ideas, mostly based on our past experiences. Maybe ideas could come from outside of our influences, but it isn't neccessary.

I can think of some 50/50 decisions that I have made..

Here's an example. I went to Drayton Manor park. I went on a ride called The Haunting. You are asked to choose a door to walk through. There are two doors. This was a 50/50 decision. I could have chose either door. Now there are things like that in the world that could cost you your life.

Pincho.

Flashing Blade
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Posted: 4th Jun 2004 16:27 Edited at: 4th Jun 2004 16:39
Heres a theory that I like:

1) Either we have souls and when we die we go onto what comes next.

2) Or we are just a collection of cells/chemicals/etc,etc. When we feel anger or love or other emotions its just the brain releasing chemicals or whatever. The big bang made the Universe, Earth formed, stuff came together and accidently made an organism which evolved over a very long time to make us.


Now if you in the camp of number 1 then no worries.

But if you are with number 2 you may think that when you die you no longer exist and then there's nothing for eternity. But, I believe that (as long as time is infinite) you are immortal. My reasoning goes like this:
If time is infinite then anything that is possible will occur eventualy. So when you die its just a matter of time before events happen to form the exact collection of chemicals/tissue/dna/whatever to form what makes whatever it is that makes you. This Universe will come to an end and a new Universe born and the right sequence of events don't occur to make another you, and this will happen thousands and thousands of billions of times. But eventualy it will happen and the right collection of stuff will come together and another you will be made. You won't need to be exactly the same just need to have the same combination of stuff that makes the you inside your body. While you don't exist there'll be no concept of time, so the minute you die you are instantly born again in another universe billions of billions of trillions of years in the future.

I'm with camp 1 anyway


Hamish McHaggis
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Posted: 4th Jun 2004 16:58
I haven't read the whole thread, but going back to the original topic... what if there are certain things in the universe that are truely random, then even everything was the same, the randomness means that certain things will end up different, and there is actually no determined "fate". It's a hard idea to grasp but it could be a possibility.

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TheAbomb12
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Posted: 4th Jun 2004 22:01
there is a difference from randomness and not understanding things...

Things appear random because we cannot predict them. In truth, nothing is "random".

Quote: "There are two doors. This was a 50/50 decision. I could have chose either door. Now there are things like that in the world that could cost you your life."


The door you picked would have been the door you picked anyways; Something (perhaps very small) made you pick your choice.

This same anology was presented by some phlisophers arguing over gods power and free will.

Imagine you come to a fork in the road and god say "Pick a path, either right or left". You decide to go right and you present your answer to god; god then says "I knew you were going to say that". You decide to change your mind and god says "I knew you where going to change your mind". Since God have infinite knowledge, he really did know what your actions where going to be before the actually event.

Can you change your actions so god becomes confused? No, god would know since the dawn of the universe what your intentions would be: you cannot change them.

Amist the Blue Skies...
Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 4th Jun 2004 22:05
That's just saying ........."This is true!"
How do you know I could not have picked the other door? There can't always be a logical choice. I watched people go through both doors... How were they all deciding? Say 1 Million people use those doors each year, and are always presented with this 50/50 choice, surely there will be a time when all things are equal.

TheAbomb12
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Posted: 4th Jun 2004 22:08
Quote: "That's just saying ........."This is true!"
How do you know I could not have picked the other door? There can't always be a logical choice."


Yes, but remember in my example "God" has infinite knowledge.

Quote: "I watched people go through both doors... How were they all deciding? Say 1 Million people use those doors each year, and are always presented with this 50/50 choice, surely there will be a time when all things are equal."


Ok, im not sure where you are going with this, but what other people decide is relative to them; you are not them so you are not fated to think in the same way or make the same "Choices" as they do.

Amist the Blue Skies...

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