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3 Dimensional Chat / Lightwave or 3ds max?

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Lascerus
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Posted: 17th Jun 2004 03:14 Edited at: 17th Jun 2004 03:39
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I'm looking for a good 3d modeller with advanced functions and no licence issues so....I was thinking of buying 3ds max but all their products are over $3500...even max 4...So I looked at lighttwave 3d the new one and it was under $1600..its cheaper but is it as easy to use and as good?Please help...I How is Cinema 4d it's kinda cheap $595...maya is about $2000...are there any others that are really good...
ps..I'm going to buy giles...

Stiyyiille
Celeron 2.0 Ghz, p4 titan mboard, Aopen Geforce fx 5200 128mb, 768mb ram
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Cian Rice
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Posted: 17th Jun 2004 04:13
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Go to ebay, there could be bids for cheaper prices or buy nows for 3DS, because that's definatly the best but Maya and light wave are both incredible too.

Got anime?
I do.
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nuclear glory
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Posted: 17th Jun 2004 04:36 Edited at: 17th Jun 2004 04:38
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Well, I was faced with the same thing, so I can help out here.

Since I'm running on a budget, I knew that Max would really drain my resources leaving me with little money to cover the rest of what I needed. After reviewing LightWave I concluded that it had enough built in functionality to pull off really good material and satisfy the demands of our projects (at least for awhile). So... I went with LightWave.

Upon receiving LightWave and cracking open it's features, my jaw about fell on the floor. I am very very happy with the product. There are probably only two pitfalls:

A) LightWave isn't geared real well to export stuff for games. (IE: like 3D game models) That's why we made an exporter for it (link in my signature)

B) LightWave doesn't have the vast array of super-human 3rd party plugins available. There are some really nice plugins, but they probably pale in comparison to the row call for Max.

All-in-all, you can probably pull off anything you need to in LightWave. I believe it was used to create Jimmy Neutron, amongst others.

We'll probably be using it for a long while.

Lead Programmer/Director
Powerful Collision DLL for DBPro and DBC: http://www.nuclearglory.com
Lightwave Scene Exporter to .X also at: http://www.nuclearglory.com
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Lascerus
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Posted: 17th Jun 2004 06:22
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How about gamespace as a modeller and giles as a renderer....

Stiyyiille
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AlecM
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Posted: 17th Jun 2004 06:47 Edited at: 17th Jun 2004 06:47
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i would get lightwave if you can afford it. Its a very nice program. Gamespace is a toy, its not really worth the money.


Buy it
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Matic
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Posted: 17th Jun 2004 11:10
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i dont think it is ok to buy a 3dmax on ebay you need to buy the licens from Discreet anyway.

i will say 3dmax is a good program i use it my self but maya did pass it on the inside now in cost and fun functionality but what dos XSI cost?.
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Nazgul
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Posted: 17th Jun 2004 16:20
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too much

http://www.freewebs.com/sysiphus/<--3d fight model there
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Surreal Studio IanG
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Posted: 17th Jun 2004 19:25
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you could always get softimage xsi for halflife then use milkesape to change the exported smd to an x or 3ds though this moight be braking the trems and conditions - which i havent read

i would seriously recommend 3ds max 6 - its a great program and is easy to use

PC Spec- AMD Athlon 2.0Ghz, GeForce FX5200 128mb, 512MB of ram, Win XP Home SP1

Error 0 = no error - how is this an error the???
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Lascerus
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Posted: 18th Jun 2004 22:22 Edited at: 18th Jun 2004 22:37
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I'm thinking of getting the lightwave educational version first...I know it cannot be used for comercial purposes but I want to finish my game first then by that time I should have saved up enough cash ...any comments..?

Oh yes thanks for all the info...

Oops forgot something...How good is lightwaves lightmapping...and can I export it for dbpro...or do I still need to buy giles...

Stiyyiille
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nuclear glory
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Posted: 19th Jun 2004 01:33
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Quote: "...How good is lightwaves lightmapping...and can I export it for dbpro..."


Well, it's lightmapping is fairly excellent if you don't plan on exporting, lol. I had to dig considerably to figure out how to get lightmap data out of LightWave... then I had to write a tool to merge the lightmap back to the scene. The problem was it only worked for small sections of the world, so I had to manually break the world apart and such. It's rather a pain. You'd be better off getting an external lightmapping tool to do the job.

Lead Programmer/Director
Powerful Collision DLL for DBPro and DBC: http://www.nuclearglory.com
Lightwave Scene Exporter to .X also at: http://www.nuclearglory.com
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Lascerus
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Posted: 19th Jun 2004 09:34 Edited at: 19th Jun 2004 09:37
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Quote: "You'd be better off getting an external lightmapping tool to do the job."


Thanks alot...That means buying Giles was not a waste of money!

Hey i found a free version of maya...it's not commercial but what the hey!

http://www.alias.com/eng/products-services/maya/maya_ple/index.shtml

Stiyyiille
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Xavier Studios
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Posted: 21st Jun 2004 03:50
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Definatley get 3DS. I would say download the free version of Maya untill you have enough money for 3DS

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LordoFire
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2004 06:03 Edited at: 22nd Jun 2004 06:03
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If you decide to go with lightwave, use this converter to convert to .x
http://www.tb-software.com/index.html
thank aoneweb for the url!

When it comes to programing, I'm on fire!
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nuclear glory
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2004 07:25
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I won't argue with that. Go with the best

Lead Programmer/Director
Powerful Collision DLL for DBPro and DBC: http://www.nuclearglory.com
Lightwave Scene Exporter to .X also at: http://www.nuclearglory.com
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2004 07:49
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Quote: "Lightwave or 3ds max?"


If you have to ask the question then your not ready to use either.
The whole point in purchasing a professional package is so that you have a larger array of tools to create your work with so if you have the knowlage on how to use them you can make work alot quicker.

Using_Professional_Modelling_Packer != Give_User_More_Talent

Asking questions like this are just going to get me to answer like this... simple fact of the matter is,

'If you have to ask, your not ready.'

I have been saying that alot recently, but quite frankly it is extremely annoying to see people believing they can get something and it'll instantly make them awesome when they'll produce the exact same results they could get from a freebie. Further more NO ONE can tell YOU what YOU like...

Personally speaking I prefer Maya; but over the past 4years I've had to use 3D Studio Max in my job. I dislike that program, with a vengence, always have and always will. Unlike you, I didn't have a choice on purchasing it and/or using it.
Do I think $3,200 is worth it for a package I don't even like??
Hell no, I thought it was a ripp-off at the student price of $500; but the fact of the matter is that is MY personal opinion and no one elses.
I'm sure if Moondog was in this forum he'd praise 3D Studio Max; and if you asked Psionic he'll say that Cinema4D is one of the better packages; or Arras will say Maya.

These are because these are what WE prefer. If you want a technically superior program, that is a different question to ask.
But there is no such thing as 'The Best' program for a task.

Just take a look at the Basic Languages;
Blitz3D, PureBASIC, DarkBASIC... Most here use DB (probably cause this is thier support forums ), but why do we use it and not one of the other Basics?
Majoritively because we prefer how DB works, acts and looks.

PureBASIC is the most technically advanced:
Blitz3D is the most technically stable with a fast 3D Engine:
DarkBASIC Professional simply has the most features packed into it:

No one told you what was the best, and no one can tell you what you'll like.
Seems stupid people are willing to spend hundred/thousands of dollars on programs that they don't have the first clue about.

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Nazgul
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2004 10:26
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I'm using now blender.Somehow this thoughts are now often (they were during years) lately in my mind.

there's a huge difference between a mid cost package, or Blender, and Max, Lightwave, Maya, XSI, Mirai.

I think those packages worth every buck. All of them.
It's a pitty we artist usually can only use at jobs.

I have used Max at job, but they did let me model with Wings, uv map with Ultimate Unwrap, and do all character animation and rendering with Max(and all 2d with adobe ps ). While I hate Max modelling tools, in character animation, Max and character studio are my favourite with no doubts.
The combo worked well, and I worked all type of game art with speed and accuracy. Once u get the hang of conversions, is just as seamless as if u were only in Max. I have wrecked a file more fatally using physique than importing an OBJ, so, the conversions are not that problem, and that way you use what u prefer in each area. So, if u just don't like LW uv mapping, u can always use Ultimate. And so on.

I'd LOVE to have an LW (for price probably the only of the big ones I might buy) , and I can express in words what would I do for a Max 6 with CS 4.2.

I think probably Mirai (wings is very similar in modelling) is better thought, but Max has exporters and importers for all, as well as I know most art paths for all kind of needed stuff for realtime 3d games with it.

IMHO, any of the big ones can do the stuff. Just I think with Max you have it easier and usually more covered.

But I keep prefering Wings3d for modelling.

http://www.freewebs.com/sysiphus/<--3d fight model there
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JimB
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2004 11:01
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@Froggermon

"i would get lightwave if you can afford it. Its a very nice program. Gamespace is a toy, its not really worth the money."

Gamespace is no more a toy than any other package besides it was
brought out to try to fill a gap in the market,which I think it has done rather well.
All of the products mentioned are great and are designed for professional usage hence the price reflects this.(darned eliteism )

I wonder how many "Professionals" actually use free modelers in conjunction with thier main package i.e Wings.

People that understand what they are trying to achieve can make decent models/scenes regardless of the package they use.There is no
substitute for talent.
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AlecM
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2004 11:16 Edited at: 22nd Jun 2004 11:17
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i used truespace for years. i know what im talking about. If you try and do any advanced mesh editing in truespace/gamespace your mesh oftern times breaks. Basically every vert in the damn thing unwelds. It crashes alot, the undo is useless...

These sorts of things have nothing to do with skill. They are just really irritating and slow down workflow. No self respecting company would force there artists to use anything but the best tools. Time is money and if you can increase efficiency by just a small fraction you save big in the long run.

When you use truespace you start to learn which features you can and cant trust, and how to use them in a way that reliable. I remember some odd bugs that never got fixed where if you did things in a certain order it would crash every time. Dont get me started on the so called features. 90% of them are half finished. There isn't even a good complete set of mesh editing tools.

There were loads more problems but i havent seriously used truespace for almost 2 years so i cant fully remember.


Buy it
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JimB
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2004 11:45
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So you don't like it then?

Seriously I agree with you TS and GS can crash quite easily,most of the time I have tried to do an operation which causes it to do so.

It seems it doesnt suffer fools gladly, at the end of the day people
have to use what they can afford.

To anyone on a tight budget Caligari have produced Gamespace Light
which you can save (up to 700 poly models) with no time limit,I think its worth getting you've got nothing to lose.
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2004 11:48
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Mirai started off free and open source; but due to the number of developers who used it the creator saw there was cash to be gained.

Quote: "No self respecting company would force there artists to use anything but the best tools."

Not true. There are a number of reasons why companies decide what you will and won't use. It all depends on the company.

as far as experience goes...
Mirai & Maya are the best polygon modellers there are;
3D Studio Max is the best Spline & Box modeller;
SoftimageXSI and Houdini are better with Nurbs & Control CV;

Rigging/Animation wise, Maya, Animanium, Animation:Master and SoftimageXSI; Sorry but 3D Max and Houdini's animation features are overly complex and quite frankly add alot of time to the work flow, not to mention don't always export as expected or with IK interpoling.

Texture/Skinning Max and Maya (nothing compared to either);

out of all the packages available Maya & Max stand out.
Max is a more technical modeller, you can do extremely presise and CAD like development with it very quickly and easily, although the boolean tools STILL have alot to be desired.
Maya is more of an organic modeller, giving you far more control over mesh and depthing of them; the environment is built for large complex projects rather than simplistic single items.

Both have distinct styles.

you'll note i don't mention Lightwave or trueSpace at all. The reason for this is because niether imo are cut out for game modelling, although now with higher capable polygon counts; both Lightwave and trueSpace are firmly stuck in the past.

trueSpace needs far far better low level mesh control,
Lightwave needs far far better workflow capabilities.

Both will quite frankly add to development time, they're great for CG Projects; but again neither have as much control over materials as Max/Maya/SoftimageXSI now have. Both products are trying to give game support but obviously don't have a clue what is needed.

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2004 11:50
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Quote: "Seriously I agree with you TS and GS can crash quite easily,most of the time I have tried to do an operation which causes it to do so."


trueSpace 2/3 was stable as a Rock on Windows 3.11 and Windows 95/ME... i used it since release in '94 right up until '99 for personal projects. it also had extremely robust booleans which were the cornerstone of development; but lacked in UV Mapping.

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Nazgul
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2004 00:34
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well..I felt -at 2 companies- like a fish in the water with Max5.1 and CS4.1, specially CS4.1(using skin modifier and biped), in what only is character animation. I have rigged and animated in other packages, but found them not so good/quick.

I still have not done so in Maya(one mate said it has a cool weight painting tool, not like Max's) or Mirai. So much I like Wings, that next time -company- I may even try the developer purchase Mirai (joke).

LW interface scared me a bit. I just don't know that software.
But Blender also scared me and now I use it easily...

http://www.freewebs.com/sysiphus/<--3d fight model there
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MikeS
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2004 01:28
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Being a Truespace user I agree with the compatibility issues read above. It's frustrating to have such an awesome, flexible, and easy workspace destroyed by ridiculous bugs.

It saddens me a little when I see them working on things like "gampak" when there's more work to be done on fixing the undo button.

At this time I'm looking for a good 3D package. Not sure where to settle though, as I cannot afford packages such as Lightwave or 3DSMax. Anyone have suggustions on what packages I should try? (Sorry to hi-jack post)

Been working with Gmax, milkshape, and just downloaded Cinema4D to try. Just need to find a good package to sink into that's flexible enough to have animation, UV, and modeling support.



A book? I hate book. Book is stupid.
(Formerly known as Yellow)
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walaber
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2004 07:39
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I've beenb fooling around with Blender, and must say it's amazing for a free program. you just need to go through the tutorials to get a hang for the interface, but that's the same for any advanced modelling program.

you should seriously consider giving it a look, because its FREE. and don't make the mistake of thinking it must be underpowered just because it's free.

Go Go Gadget DBPRO!

Athlon XP 2400+ || DDR-SDRAM 1GB || Nvidia GeForce 4 Ti4200 AGP 8x 128MB
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MikeS
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2004 07:59
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Been giving Silo a look. Have to say I'm really impressed with it.

Reminds me so much of wings3d, and that's definitly a good thing.

I'll have to take a look at Blender though, as I've heard so much about it.



http://www.silo3d.com

A book? I hate book. Book is stupid.
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 24th Jun 2004 05:49
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Blender is what remains of a pretty awesome 3d game maker from back in the day.
As a modeller though personally i think it just sucks, but as an entire development evironment is cool

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Matic
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Posted: 24th Jun 2004 15:33
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i use blender sometimes and it is a really good program
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Lascerus
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Posted: 25th Jun 2004 22:49
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Thanks alot but I found something really cool.I'm downloading it now...on a 56k . Anyway its called XSI it's supposed to be a just as good as maya, max and lightwave....and its FREE. Well the trial...they even ave a table showing the ifference between the free XSI version and Maya learning edition...if the table is true XSI has more professional features...I currently use gamespace light and found it very conveniant....very good for low poly..(to me anyway). I tried 3ds Max too but its too expensive...maya is too complicated(or maybe I needed more time with it)...Oh well XSI(commercial) is in the same price range as maya and I can make all the graphics I need in it and gamespace lite(if I need it)...

The one problem with XSI that I might pick up is exporting I don't know that yet...I'll post again once I get it...and try it...Once again thank you for all the help! ...much appreciated....

oh I almost forgot...do I still need to buy cshop and giles

Stiyyiille
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