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Geek Culture / Your views on Longhorn

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M00NSHiNE
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Posted: 19th Jun 2004 21:03
This has probably been asked before, but I just wanted to see, from a developmers point of view (a lot of C++ and VB coders on here). So MS are changing the entire Win API in favour of WinFS (Is that right?) and Avalon. So basically nothing is going to be properly compatible with it anymore?

Surely a massive blow towards devlopers. What do you think?

DeepBlue
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Posted: 19th Jun 2004 21:12 Edited at: 19th Jun 2004 21:50
Suggest you read the thread a few posts down.

http://developer.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=33655&b=2

[Edit]lmao OK looks like this one is going to be allowed to run[Edit]

The coder formerly known as Twynklet.
OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 19th Jun 2004 21:21
Quote: "So MS are changing the entire Win API in favour of WinFS "

No, WinFS will be an extra filing system. NTFS will still be availiable, and possibly FAT32 too...


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IanM
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Posted: 19th Jun 2004 21:41
Quote: "So MS are changing the entire Win API in favour of WinFS"


Almost. The *new* replacement API is called WinFX, and it is based on .NET. Apparently, LongHorn will allow Win32 applications to run in 'legacy' mode, but a LongHorn app will not be runnable on earlier versions of windows (remember Win32S anyone?)

http://www.gartner.com/DisplayDocument?doc_cd=118261

Just to add a little bit more info to this and how some in the industry view things ... (warning: long but insightful article)

http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/APIWar.html

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1tg46
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Posted: 19th Jun 2004 22:04
@ Moonshine
good luck with this thread.You're going to need it.

@TCA
looks like I was not the only one who was thinking of Longhorn, and with stuff on the mind about it. And besides when a thread has been closed for awhile, and a new one similar to it starts, and it has new information than just let it go. And I am sure that if my thread wasn't closed he would've been able to post this on my Longhorn thread.

Anxiously awaiting BlueGUI v2
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 19th Jun 2004 22:19
Windows 6.0 / NX (Next) Project Longhorn, isn't what most reviewers believe it to be.

This mainly comes from the fact that the Beta (technically alpha) out there is actually Windows 5.1 XP (Experience) Project Whistler, plus the additional technology testbeds.

If anyone remembers when Whistler was in development, it was using Windows 4.9 ME (Millennium Edition) Project Memphis as it's testbed. Alot of reviewers also believed then what they were trying was a less buggy version of Windows 9x with some cool features; it couldn't have been further from the facts.

The tests included Ext FAT32 / NTFS, these new variations on the Windows 5.0 versions included selective sector definitions and security measures which allowed from the std 512 -> 4096byte per sectors.
Also included was the new Windows Messaging System which was 'suppose' to allow Microsoft to let you know when Critical updates were ready, or new versions of thier products were available. (unfortunately advertisers eventually abused it).

What Windows NX is going to bring to the table is basically something completely new to Microsoft Compatible Platforms.
So what exactly make NX different from XP or previous generations;

Windows XP through all of it's trying still relied on DOS as it's base system, and everything was built up graphically around that.
It also relied on old systems and patches to them, as well as a full dependance on DirectX.

Windows NX is different from the start. The Kernel has been rebuilt from the ground up, DOS limited you to 640K Base / upto 4096 Upper / upto 16MB Extended / The rest System available.

Windows NX now has a free memory architecture, old DOS required programs are now shifted with 16MB Protected and address calls are handled as if they are to that space but are really called from virtual memory declared anywhere.
Something just as interesting is the self expiration of memory, as now there is a file system for the memory; it lets Windows know if something has expired and to release it if it has.
Windows itself controls this with application based memory calls, which means that the management is alot cleaner than before.

These aren't novel, but without a complete system rework this would've been impossible within Windows before.

Next important new feature is .Net ... not the .Net Framework that Windows currently has; the main libraries are based on the .Net JIT compiling. This means that the libraries whenever your system design changes will recompile your OS libraries specifically for your platform.

This means if you have an iBook and an x86 Laptop, you swap the HDD between the two and during boot-up Windows will announce the recompiliation, you can pass it by and the libraries are recompiled on the fly; but this slows down system speed.

Another main new feature is the XNA backbone system.
The Windows NX version of this is 160MB, this is basically the replacement for every single Windows library currently available.
(PDK is 310MB and covers X-Box, .Net & Windows)

What is amazing about it is that alot of it is compatible current technology:
DirectX, Windows API, Networking, GDI, Shell, Etc...
But now all compacted into a single set of Libraries which can be used together or alone.

There is also now a new Windows Executable format that is designed specifically for WinFS. What is cool about it is that it is capable of using Microsoft Installer (InstallShield) as standard, it also comes out quite a bit smaller + is machine independant.
Any machine using the .Net framework (MacOS 11 is set to do so) will be able to use these Executables without any recompiling.

Stability has always been a key for Windows in terms of compatible drivers and such. The extra years Microsoft have (and still are) taking to painsteakingly redesign Windows are showing quite outstandingly.
Windows now has the ability to adapt to certain problems, for example my Via + C-Media sound card don't like each other much; this causes ME/XP to reboot randomly in DirectX (drivers).
Windows NX however it'll popup there is a driver problem, and note's its severity.
You have an option of Report (Checkbox), Resume, Reboot, Ignore.

If you ignore most problem will give you a Blue Screen debug error rundown. Resuming will mean Windows will learn this problem and next time will take measure to counter-act the bug, Rebooting does what it says. It is likely for the Home Editions this will be set to 'Only Appear on High Priority Errors'.

Security feature have also been beefed up. Getting to use Windows XP Service Pack 2, it seems like they're using the general public to test some of these features.

Basically put... Has Microsoft Spent The Past 5 Years Patching XP For Longhorn?
The answer is very simply: No, Longhorn is as Distant to Windows XP as Windows NT was to Windows 95.

Due to the way that Windows now uses Token Registers for recompiling rather than Platform Specific Registers, this also meant there is room for a new feature (planned but not currently ready for them to show yet); by the name of Annex.
To call it an environment emulator would be silly, because technically it's base environment would technically be called an emulated environment.

This'll be an optional installation as it'll add quite a bit to the installation (probably in the region of 1GB); but what it does is run natively Linux/Windows environments as 'Extra' desktops.

No doubt this is more for developers so they don't have to shut down Windows or use a secondary machine to run Linux or different Windows versions; you just connect another desktop, the libraries access as voila instant additional Operating System.
These additional modes are also suppose to be running in 'safety' mode, so that they can't screw up your system if they crash.

Alot of thought has been put into Windows for the end-user. The Universal development system of XNA quite frankly makes development alot easier than it was, which as Windows always was one of the easiest systems to develop for; means that Microsoft really aren't going to rock the boat here.

If you want to understand the Different,
- Download DirectX 7 SDK
- Download DirectX 9 SDK

now try to make a simple game like Bomberman in both. believe me you'll understand very quickly why developers aren't going to bitch about the new system.

M00NSHiNE
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Posted: 19th Jun 2004 22:33
Sorry WinFX is what I meant, I got confused as d read about FS in an article about Filing systems...

I hope this doesnt invite a flame, it just seems that if everything changes... then Im wondering if theres going to be a point making anything based on the current API...

empty
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Location: 3 boats down from the candy
Posted: 19th Jun 2004 23:02
Quote: "Just to add a little bit more info to this and how some in the industry view things ... (warning: long but insightful article)

http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/APIWar.html"

Thanks for the link. It's very interesting.

Play Nice! Play Basic!
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Posted: 20th Jun 2004 00:26 Edited at: 20th Jun 2004 00:30
1tg46 : At least this one is slight different. Although why anyone is talking about it yet (especially as its been delayed because of XP SP2), is beyond me.

However, when this thread desends into chaos, yours truely will be here to save the day...


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There's the right way, the wrong way and the TCA way...
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 20th Jun 2004 00:33
The Delay because of XP SP2 is a good thing though.
It mean's they're not rushing to get it to market, which only means that they're taking thier OS seriously this time rather than just another way to make some cash.

The ban on a new Operating System is lifted in 6months after that any extra time they spend on it is thier own. Right now Microsoft after posting up information and explainations on the technology but seem to be shooting for an early 2006 release.
So nothing but good news can't wait to get my hands on XNA later this year though, gonna be one awesome PDK.

OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 20th Jun 2004 00:36
Quote: "The Delay because of XP SP2 is a good thing though."

Oh yes, I'm not saying the delays a bad thing. I just hope they'll spend extra time putting in all the security bits that will be needed.

Really, all the extra bits in SP2 should have been in XP right at the start.


The place for great plug-ins and things.
There's the right way, the wrong way and the TCA way...
Karlos
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Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 20th Jun 2004 02:09
I've had a curious conversation about longhorn with a lotus notes developer and it sounds possibly like this new filing system draws some ideas from good old notes.

Also one of the original notes architects is now a senior manager looking after longhorn.

I don't know enough about longhorn or notes to say either way.

sounds curious though

If it ain't broke - try harder.
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