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Geek Culture / commurcial games

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Turoid
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Posted: 13th Jul 2004 04:27
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do you guys think that is possible to create a game with DBPro that is even good as (for example) the game Far cry. And i mean with commurcial that you can find the game in the stores(boxed), so not only online orderable or electronic download or what ever.

if I = 1 then I = 1 else I = 0

Current project>> "MagEasy" simple 2D game creator..
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zircher
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Posted: 13th Jul 2004 04:33
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Never will be possible in my opinion. Far Cry uses a heavily optimized engine written C/C++. And, it would take you 10 man years to just create of the high quaility custom content required.
--
TAZ

History did not begin with PONG. -- Greg Costikyan

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Giles Papworth
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Posted: 13th Jul 2004 09:31
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Quote: "do you guys think that is possible to create a game with DBPro that is even good as (for example) the game Far cry"


Quote: "Never will be possible in my opinion. Far Cry uses a heavily optimized engine written C/C++. And, it would take you 10 man years to just create of the high quaility custom content required."


Well you just contradicted urself there really. Anything is possible, you just have to work long and hard at it. You also forget that Crytek(the people who made the engine) probably had a fair few people working on the game!!! So the answer is yes really, but it isn't going to be easy!

Its not a bug, Its a feature

If we were meant to stay in this reality games would not exist!
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Emperor Baal
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Posted: 13th Jul 2004 10:04
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Its possible, but would you achieve good framerates with the same quality? I highly doubt that. A perfect optimized engine in c++ can never be beaten by a interpreter (dbc) nor a basic compiler (dbpro).

But the amount of time and money that goes into making such engine is unbelievable.

So the answer would be, yes, its possible.


http://www.nuclearpublishing.com/hosting/emperorbaal/
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 13th Jul 2004 13:04
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It all depends on what you mean by Commerical.

From a Graphical Standpoint, DarkBasic Professional cannot push as many polygons or achieve quite the same effects as DirectX natively can (or as easily).
Luckily if you use FarCry as an example then yes the graphics are easy to create within DarkBasic Professional 5.0 and above.

From a Gameplay Standpoint, that's entirely upto the programmers abilities.Although possible, the likelihood is low until you have great experience.

Networking wise... well the networking system is actually quite confusing to work with. Although possible to sort out simple things when you get into more complex matters well it just gets far too much without alot of practise.

Although alot of things are possible in DBP, the question ultimately lies on the shoulders of the developer.
Are you capable of making a Commerical Quality title?

Remember Commercial quality simply means someone is willing to hand over cash in order to play. Has more to do with making everything work rather tha fancy graphics.

IMO FarCry isn't commercial quality itself, it's a good graphics demo... but nowt more than that.

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Xander
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Posted: 13th Jul 2004 14:32
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Of course commercial quality games are possible in Dark Basic. Look at the Star Wraith games. In fact, I just sent two emails to publishers, and am hoping to get Firewall published in a month or two.

However, the graphics are limited with DB Classic, or Pro for that matter. Gameplay is what is most important in a game. With enough practice and time, almost anything is possible.

Xander Moser of Bolt Software
Firewall: Your Computer's First Defense - Real Time Strategy game
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Lord Ozzum
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Posted: 13th Jul 2004 16:15
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goodluck with Firewall

WWSD?
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Dave J
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Posted: 13th Jul 2004 18:45
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Quote: "[quote]do you guys think that is possible to create a game with DBPro that is even good as (for example) the game Far cry"


Quote: "Never will be possible in my opinion. Far Cry uses a heavily optimized engine written C/C++. And, it would take you 10 man years to just create of the high quaility custom content required."


Well you just contradicted urself there really.[/quote]

No he didn't. He said: "It'll never be possible to create a game like Far Cry in DBP.", then he said "It will take 10 years to just create the high quality content required." I'd like to point out that the content is NOT the game, therefore, he didn't contradict himself at all.


"Computers are useless they can only give you answers."
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Tomy
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Posted: 13th Jul 2004 22:49 Edited at: 13th Jul 2004 22:53
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Quote: "Luckily if you use FarCry as an example then yes the graphics are easy to create within DarkBasic Professional 5.0 and above.
"


That i don't understand
Far Cry has millions of polygons, newest DX9 effects, dynamic LOD system and still everything runs so smooth.
I never saw that good graphics in any DBP game...
Can you show me an example that looks as good as Far Cry?

(in my opinion Far Cry looks as good as Half Life 2 )

Quote: "IMO FarCry isn't commercial quality itself, it's a good graphics demo... but nowt more than that.
"


That's your opinion... tho not mine!
I like Far Cry, it's an extremely perfect game:
-super graphics
-good AI
-outstanding physics
-Good gameplay
-boring story


GameVisions Softwares - http://www.gamevisions.ne1.net
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 14th Jul 2004 00:14
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Quote: "That i don't understand
Far Cry has millions of polygons, newest DX9 effects, dynamic LOD system and still everything runs so smooth."


FarCry's on-screen polycount maxxes at 580,000 on Max Detail.
What looks like millions of polygons is actually purely Normal Mapping Shaders which as I've said a number of times before are basically the 'Hello World' of for Shader Developers.

It might appear to have the newest Dx9 Effect, but they're all textbook examples. Hell I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the entire shader library were all lifted from the NVSDK 5.0

Dynamic LOD is not difficult; You want to achieve that in DBP you would have to do it the manual way with an Index Octree in an Array and a Mesh Memblock, but that said that is no different to how you'd do it in DirectX.

Quote: "I never saw that good graphics in any DBP game...
Can you show me an example that looks as good as Far Cry?"


Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it isn't possible.
And I could, but no I won't. I would just suggest you keep your eyes peeled on the technology demo's trickling out right now.

Quote: "(in my opinion Far Cry looks as good as Half Life 2 )"


Then your blind. Half-Life 2 's Source 'Material' Shader Engine give users the ability to give subtle atmosphere to your levels; There is NOTHING subtle about FarCry's Shaders.

You only have to watch the 10minute DirectX9 Effects runtime of Half-Life 2 's Material Engine in action to see that FarCry lives upto it's name in the fact that it is a FarCry from a complex or great looking game.

Quote: "-super graphics"

The graphics are guady an over-used tripe... Unreal Tornament 2004 is actually far harder to recreate in DBP (and looks a hell of alot better!!)

Quote: "-good AI"

That is a joke right?

Quote: "-outstanding physics"

Another joke?!

Quote: "-Good gameplay"

It's a flippin' FPS, they all play the damn same. The only difference is in the control reaction. Quite frankly nothing comes close to Quake3 in control feel// but then that's an opinion.

Quote: "-boring story"

That's suppose to make it good?!

FarCry is quite frankly one of the most boring games i've ever had the god aweful misfortune to play and is nothing more than a game made purely for Benchmarking graphics cards.
As a game itself it impressed me about as much as a squirrel.

You want an example of a game just quite frankly not possible in DBP's current state...
S.T.A.L.K.E.R. (now THAT is a good looking game)

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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 14th Jul 2004 00:30 Edited at: 14th Jul 2004 00:33
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There are absolutly no DB games with graphics similar to Unreal serious, or Halo, or Vice City or any boxed game that you would consider buying just by looking at the screenshots.

I would know, I went throught almost every DBP game known to man kind.
(When I was looking for games to feature on DBG, I went through 15 pages of the WIP forum)

EDIT: Actually, there was only ONE expection. The latest screens I looked at of Armaggedon (bout a week ago) were almost on par with Diablo 2.

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Jeku
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Posted: 14th Jul 2004 02:29
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Who cares about graphics anyway. There is still a market for fun games that don't act all "FarCry". Easy controls, gameplay that is addictive, one that can be played "just 15 minutes before I have to leave for work". DBP is great for that. Why shoot for Halo 2? There's no point, really

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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 14th Jul 2004 03:15
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Name a game that's "Easy controls, gameplay and addicitve"

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zircher
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Posted: 14th Jul 2004 03:18 Edited at: 14th Jul 2004 03:19
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3D Mahjong does the trick for me.
--
TAZ

Bonus points since it is a game that the wife and I play together.

History did not begin with PONG. -- Greg Costikyan

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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 14th Jul 2004 03:46
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Well...3d mahjong is different. It's a game based on a game. I meant original games, like FPS, RPG's, or 3rd-person action games.

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zircher
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Posted: 14th Jul 2004 04:13
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Yeah, yeah. If my son were online, he tell you that DUO is another contender. If you like the arcade games, it's a hoot and pretty original to boot.
--
TAZ

History did not begin with PONG. -- Greg Costikyan

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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 14th Jul 2004 05:18 Edited at: 14th Jul 2004 05:25
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Hey, I just finished a lenghy review for DUO.
Great game. But not something I would pay to play.

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Jeku
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Posted: 14th Jul 2004 08:49
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Quote: " meant original games, like FPS, RPG's, or 3rd-person action games."


That's my whole point :p We don't NEED more FPS' for one thing. Especially not DBP FPS'. The rare ones that come out are great, but they're not timeless.

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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 14th Jul 2004 10:45
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So what do we need?

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Dave J
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Posted: 14th Jul 2004 16:03
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Quote: "Name a game that's "Easy controls, gameplay and addicitve" "


http://www.freelunchdesign.com


"Computers are useless they can only give you answers."
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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 14th Jul 2004 23:48
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Cool. I never even heard of those DBP games.

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zircher
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Posted: 15th Jul 2004 01:26
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My suggestion would be the development of casual games, if you're gunning to be a commercial success with DBP. Me, I'm quite happy making niche games and utilities for my hobbies.
--
TAZ

History did not begin with PONG. -- Greg Costikyan

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Jeku
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Posted: 15th Jul 2004 02:29 Edited at: 15th Jul 2004 02:30
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Quote: "So what do we need?"


Quote: "Easy controls, gameplay that is addictive, one that can be played "just 15 minutes before I have to leave for work"."


Those kinds of games, if pulled off, can be just as challenging, if not *more* so, to make than your current crop of DBP FPS' and MMORPGs...

We also need originality. For examples of games I'd like to see more people making with DBP, check out http://www.popcap.com. They have games like Bejewelled, Bookworm, and others that are unique in their own rights

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BearCDPOLD
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Posted: 15th Jul 2004 15:13
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Has anybody in DB ever tried creating casual games in the genres normally reserved for hardcore gamers?

The most outrageous crazy project I can think of right now is an MMORPG that would cost something cheap like $5 a month for subscriptions and having gameplay to allow you to do all the customization stuff you typically can do on MMOs without all the complexity and time investment.

Crazy Donut Productions, Current Project: KillZone
Web Site Button Does Not Work, Visit Here: http://www.geocities.com/crazydonutproductions/index.html
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Dave J
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Posted: 15th Jul 2004 16:13
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Quote: "Cool. I never even heard of those DBP games. "


You didn't ask us to name a DBP game, you just asked us to name a simple and addictive game. The point I'm trying to get across is that the games on that site are addictive and very simple to make (2D in Allegro even) and that those are the kind of things that are possible in DBP (even for a beginner) but are still fun.


"Computers are useless they can only give you answers."
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Tomy
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Posted: 15th Jul 2004 21:30 Edited at: 16th Jul 2004 07:53
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@Raven: you know i'm a complete n00b when it comes to shaders, in fact most users of Far Cry are complete n00bs when it comes to shaders
Tho as a complete shader-n00b i was impressed by the shaders and i didn't see that they're just the "Hello World" of shaders...
So i didn't know it and it looked nice to me.
Do you have like a super view where you can see the source code when you play the game? I mean IF it's the "Hello World" of shaders, who cares about it when it looks good?

Quote: "
That's suppose to make it good?!
"

NO

Quote: "Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it isn't possible.
And I could, but no I won't."


Now that sounds like you wouldn't know any game with the graphics quality of FarCry

Quote: "FarCry's on-screen polycount maxxes at 580,000 on Max Detail.
"


Well, that's more than Doom3 Still a whole lot more than DBP manages to do


GameVisions Softwares - http://www.gamevisions.ne1.net
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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 15th Jul 2004 23:31
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Quote: "You didn't ask us to name a DBP game, you just asked us to name a simple and addictive game."



Well we are talking about DBP games! I know there are simple and addicting games out there. This is DBP we're talking about again!

Man I saw the video for Doom 3 on xbox...laggy ass stuff...

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Dave J
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Posted: 15th Jul 2004 23:38
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Quote: "The point I'm trying to get across is that the games on that site are addictive and very simple to make (2D in Allegro even) and that those are the kind of things that are possible in DBP (even for a beginner) but are still fun."



"Computers are useless they can only give you answers."
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Andy Igoe
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Posted: 16th Jul 2004 02:43
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If you are ever unlucky enough to have NVidia visit your offices they'll show you a demo of Quake 3 running at 1600 res with every graphics option on at 5 frames per second. They think this is great because the ATI card only manages 3 frames per second*.

I dont think that this is impressive. OK so it's 2 frames faster than the ATI card, but i'd rather see a demo at a playable speed. To me i'd rather see both cards at 60fps or more and see what the difference in quality is.

The moral of the story is. Who cares if something is technically impressive behind the scenes. Beauty is skin deap in computer games.

* Play Halflife 2 and it's the other way around, but they neglected to mention that. /shrug...


Which is the biggest tool? The computer, or the muppet who invented it?
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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 16th Jul 2004 03:33 Edited at: 16th Jul 2004 03:34
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Actually I think graphics are 50% of what computer games are all about. If you want depth and gameplay, go outside, and play a damn sport.



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Van B
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Posted: 16th Jul 2004 03:44
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Agreed.

That's why retro gaming is as popular as it's ever been, if not more.


Van-B


Muhahahahaha.
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zircher
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Posted: 16th Jul 2004 05:45
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Most sports suck and all the guns I used to shoot with are in Arizona. I guess I need to write the kinds of games I like to play.
--
TAZ

PS. I'm a natual born clutz - most sports have left me with broken bones or scars. At a rifle range, I'm in a controlled environment where safety is always a priority. (BTW, I gave up shooting after I married my filipino wife. I do have some survival instincts.)

History did not begin with PONG. -- Greg Costikyan

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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 16th Jul 2004 08:20
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I suck at everything but Soccer (Or "Football" for us Ex-Europeans)

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Jeku
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Posted: 16th Jul 2004 09:54
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Quote: " Actually I think graphics are 50% of what computer games are all about. "


I feel bad for you if that's your opinion There are so many good games that you can get an emulator to run on a modern PC that were made in the 80's and 90's that kick 90% of the newer games' @ss when it comes to funness and originality.

With some games, like Half-Life 2, I would maybe say that it's a 50% MAXIMUM percentage for graphics importance.

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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 16th Jul 2004 10:15 Edited at: 16th Jul 2004 10:16
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Well, everyone is different. Again, it was just my *opinion*. As in what I think.

Old retro games are boring for me. Sorry but that's just what I feel.

There are a few classics that I like but they go down only as back as the Geneses. But even them I get bored of real quik. A few modern games that are 2d are a still awsome fun and originality.

http://www.chaseace.com/

Chase ace: I just loved thise game. Spent hours playing against my friend. Fast paced, original and never dull.

And ofcourse who can forget Worms. I even played Worms 2 on-line, which, even though not as good as the new ones, was great. Armageddon was really the ground breaker. And Worms World Party was slick as well.

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zircher
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Posted: 17th Jul 2004 04:40
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If you're a Worms fan, check out GunBound.
--
TAZ

History did not begin with PONG. -- Greg Costikyan

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Trev
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Posted: 17th Jul 2004 07:53
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Commercial games with dbpro very possible. This dosn't have to mean 3d. 2d games are all design, gameplay, decent graphics, and most of all hoping that people will enjoy that game. 3d games can also be based on just being fun not very graphical but if you make it fun enough people will buy it. Just because Dark Basic isn't able to generate commercial graphics dosn't mean it can't create commercial games. For example Grand Theft Auto, when it came out for the Playstation One did it have better graphics then other games? No the same as it's competitors, but why did it sell so much then? because it was fun. So you can see graphics are important but if the game is truly fun you'll find that graphics arent all that important.

Trevor Somerville
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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 17th Jul 2004 10:15
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Graphics are still importent.
Again, if you really love good gameplay you could also try...a board game.

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BearCDPOLD
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Posted: 17th Jul 2004 10:20
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Looking at gunbound, it looks like it'd be pretty easy to do in DB. Well....not easy, but it's not impossible.

Crazy Donut Productions, Current Project: KillZone
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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 17th Jul 2004 10:55
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Gun Bound has awsome grahpics. What's your point?

I never said a game has to be 3D to have great graphics. Attractive and detailed renders or backdrops will do also. (Diablo 2?)

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