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Geek Culture / Torque(or however you spell it...)

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Peter H
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Posted: 14th Jul 2004 06:45
i recently got a book called "3D game programming all in one" and it uses the "torque" game engine \. and i'm wondering how good this engine is...the book comes with a version (called the "book" version ) that doesn't include the source code...but if you buy the full "developer's liscense" then you get the source code for the engine(albiet in c++ )

so i'm wondering if torque is worth deeply learning...or should "bite the bullet" and start learning c++( )


Formerly known as "DarkWing Duck"
ReD_eYe
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Posted: 14th Jul 2004 06:46
You don't need c++ or torque, they are all built off darkbasic anyway, why add an extra layer? It only makes it slower...

Zero Blitzt
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Posted: 14th Jul 2004 06:48
Quote: " they are all built off darkbasic anyway, why add an extra layer? It only makes it slower...
"


DarkBASIC was coded in C++, not the other way around...

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Peter H
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Posted: 14th Jul 2004 06:49
he was joking(at least i hope he was )


Formerly known as "DarkWing Duck"
ReD_eYe
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Posted: 14th Jul 2004 06:50
Nooo, c++ was coded in dark basic for all the people that like to spend aggesss learning to program and increasing the length of time it takes to produce games...

Peter H
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Posted: 14th Jul 2004 06:52
i was hoping for a serious answer


Formerly known as "DarkWing Duck"
JoelJ
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Posted: 14th Jul 2004 06:54
let me take this time to say:

BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Jimmy
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Posted: 14th Jul 2004 06:54
I love you red_eye

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JoelJ
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Posted: 14th Jul 2004 06:55
we all do

ReD_eYe
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Posted: 14th Jul 2004 06:56 Edited at: 14th Jul 2004 06:57
Oh, sorry
Torque does look good and probably abit easier than c++ but i would think its less flexible. Although i've never tried it. DBP is the best in my not so humble opinion though.

#edit, thanks jimmy+darwin, you wanna join my DBP fanboy club? Its really cool, gimme a sec and get a sig image for us to use...

Peter H
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Posted: 14th Jul 2004 06:58 Edited at: 14th Jul 2004 06:59
so you really don't know anything about torque...
well from what i can tell it's plenty flexible(though doing the flexing requires extra code) if you want you can edit the engines source code(if you buy the full version)

what i wanted to know as if anybody knew whether or not the engine was much slower then c++...

and as for the DBPro fan club...i like DBPro to and if i switch it'll be a year from now(at least...)


Formerly known as "DarkWing Duck"
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 14th Jul 2004 06:59
Torque was used to create Tribes2 and since evolved quite far to become a very good middleware engine.
Doesn't compare to Renderware but still good, and worth learning.

Peter H
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Posted: 14th Jul 2004 07:00 Edited at: 14th Jul 2004 07:00
thanks raven!
what's renderware?


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ReD_eYe
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Posted: 14th Jul 2004 07:02
sexayyyy Use google for a search on renderware, and also, look at the torque forums, you would be able to gauge a general response fromt he users there.

Shadow Robert
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Posted: 14th Jul 2004 07:03
http://www.renderware.com/
an industry standard middleware solution... basically it's not quite and engine, but it's a damn sight easier than using the APIs directly.

And the multi-platforming really comes in handy.

Jimmy
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Posted: 14th Jul 2004 07:07
SWANKAY!


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JoelJ
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Posted: 14th Jul 2004 07:11
AWSOME BLOSSOM!

err...



Jeku
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Posted: 14th Jul 2004 08:40
Quote: "what i wanted to know as if anybody knew whether or not the engine was much slower then c++..."


Since Torque was written using C++, I'd imagine it's not slower than.... using C++. Know what I mean? There are always ways to optimize code to make it faster, though.

I purchased Torque around the same time as DBP and I have yet to use Torque for anything. I would suggest learning C++ if you're going to want to get "serious" with game programming or want to work in the industry as a software engineer.

Richard Davey
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Posted: 14th Jul 2004 09:08
Doesn't Torque use its own C like scripting language? If you want to learn C++ then surely, just go and learn it properly without bothering with another proprietary "language" in-between. The Torque C-script might be similar to C++, but it's still not going to actually be C++. Sure you get the source, so you can get in and dirty with the engine, but if you're capable of doing that I dare say you don't need it in the first place.

http://www.garagegames.com has it all.

And interestingly on the top listed game on the GG home page in the "Game Store" section was written in DBPro That just about says it all really.

If you want to move to C++ in order to become a games programmer for a big software house, starting taking extra math and physics classes at school/college (if you still can) and worry less about the "visual" stuff and more about your ability to solve problems through code and optimisation.

If you're just doing this "for fun" then stop for a moment and ask yourself why so many professional games developers and artists are using the likes of DBP and Blitz for their pet hobby projects (which they often then go on to sell). The reason is time

Cheers,

Rich

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BearCDPOLD
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Posted: 14th Jul 2004 11:56
Anybody know what Virtools is all about?

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Benjamin
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Posted: 14th Jul 2004 18:28 Edited at: 14th Jul 2004 18:30


*points down* You don't mind Red_eye, do you?

flibX0r
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Posted: 14th Jul 2004 19:47
@ReD_eYe

You need to make a DBP Fanboy website or something


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Peter H
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Posted: 14th Jul 2004 22:42
Quote: "If you're just doing this "for fun" then stop for a moment and ask yourself why so many professional games developers and artists are using the likes of DBP and Blitz for their pet hobby projects (which they often then go on to sell). The reason is time
"

the thing is is that i want to use c++ becuase it's much faster then DBPro...though it takes longer to code the same thing. the endresult is better...and i have lots of time on my hands so i'm more worried about the endresult...

but anyway what i think i'll do is use Torque as kind of a "stepping" stone to get me used to "c++ style coding"(it uses OOP and c++ "like" script) then when i go into c++ it won't be as big of a step(going right fom 3 years of basic languages into c++ would be painfull)

so i'll just make a game or two in torque(though i don't intend to buy the full version just for a "game or two"...the book version will work fine)

and of course i'm still using DBPro...


Formerly known as "DarkWing Duck"
hyrichter
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Posted: 14th Jul 2004 23:12
Quote: "going right fom 3 years of basic languages into c++ would be painfull"


You think going from only 3 years of Basic to c++ is painful? I've been using versions of BASIC for nearly 13 years. I'm finally starting out learning c++ and it really isn't that hard.

Tomy
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Posted: 14th Jul 2004 23:43
Quote: "what i wanted to know as if anybody knew whether or not the engine was much slower then c++...
"


Torque is an engine, C++ is a programming language... you can't compare their speed.


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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 14th Jul 2004 23:57
Why in the hell is everyone using that ugly DBP fanboy sig??? Have you people lost your minds again?

Anyway, I tried the demo of torque, it's pretty slick.

Tomy
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Posted: 15th Jul 2004 00:53
i dunno what you have against that sig...
I looks absolutely coooooool


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ReD_eYe
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Posted: 15th Jul 2004 01:49
DBP Fanboy has a website now, and its better than your stylised carp Megaton
http://redeye.dbspot.com/fanboy.html
Works best in internet explorer(sorry)

Richard Davey
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Posted: 15th Jul 2004 02:55
Quote: "the thing is is that i want to use c++ becuase it's much faster then DBPro...though it takes longer to code the same thing. the endresult is better...and i have lots of time on my hands so i'm more worried about the endresult..."


Saying it is "much faster" simply isn't true. If you're a C++ expert and know how to write C++ code really well, then yes - of course it'll be faster. But if you're not, don't be under some misguided illusion that just because it's C++ it's infinitely faster. Poor code = Slow code, no matter what language you wrote it in.

"I am not young enough to know everything."
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 15th Jul 2004 05:24
Depends what you mean by faster... C++ is only faster optimised, and as C++ isn't technically ANSI Governed; there's like 20 completely different versions.
Each with thier own unique style, speed and optimisation routes.

It is all really a completely grey area. Although the code might be faster doing native stuff, the engine itself is far more important... and it'll take some time without middleware to achieve something actually faster than DBP.
Especially going the Dx route.

This isn't something to simply *fall* into, learning C/C++ takes time and dedication to make it worthwhile. Many, many people just end up quitting when they realise how much work is involved.

IanM
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Posted: 15th Jul 2004 07:37
Um ... http://webstore.ansi.org/ansidocstore/product.asp?sku=INCITS%2FISO%2FIEC+14882%2D2003

It's a full ANSI standard. In fact it's an ISO worldwide standard.

What does differ between compilers is the level of conformance to the standard.

I also have to disagree that you cannot write fast code to run on all C++ compilers (at least the ones I've used), although it might be that you cannot in some circumstances write optimal code.

Some of this is due to platform differences, some due to older brain-dead compilers and some due to unsupported optimisations within the compiler. All that the standard can do is suggest certain optimisations, as it cannot guarantee that a particular optimisation *is* an optimisation for a particular platform.

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 15th Jul 2004 08:22
yeah it's a standard Ian, but not governed.
ANSI C is governed; meaning they start legal suits if you claim a language you've made is C but doesn't stand up to the Standard they've set.

companies don't have to do that with C++, GCC afaik is the only compiler which actually adhears to the standard.

Borland and Microsoft C++ are both worlds apart though.

Megaton Cat
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Posted: 15th Jul 2004 09:35
Quote: "Don't know what DBP is? Well, you're retarded then aren't you...
You have to prove that you aren't retarded to find out what DBP is, try and find the hidden link....

"


I don't know who here is crazier. Me for looking at it, or you for creating it.

I feel sorry for DBP...

BearCDPOLD
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Posted: 15th Jul 2004 13:00
ReD_eYe, that site is beautiful.
You are truly a master of Paint.

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Major Payn
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Posted: 15th Jul 2004 13:07
I really want to learn c++, because someday I want to get into the game industry, so what is the best way to learn?

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Tomy
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Posted: 15th Jul 2004 21:15
if you want to make a game in C++ you have to program a 3d engine. (or you buy one)
In DBP the 3d engine is already done.
Programming a 3d engine in C++ is so damn complex, it would take you ages only to do something half as good as DBP so what's the point of learning it?
I'm sure Raven can give you 5 page-description of what you have to do
Tho if you really want to do it then buy a book about C++ for beginners or something like that.
BTW have fun learning the DX library


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zircher
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Posted: 15th Jul 2004 23:19
Check out Ogre on sourceforge, it's a nice cross platform C++ graphic library than should give you a significant head start if you're serious about game dev in C++. There's also CrystalSpace, I have not checked into it for a long time so I'm in the dark on any improvements that have been made.
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Game Beavers
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Posted: 16th Jul 2004 10:00
If you ask me Torque is the best thing ever! I love using it. Its based on C++ and is basically the Unreal engine. Actually it is. Its really good. (http://www.garagegames.com/pg/product/view.php?id=1) Fi you don't already have it, it is worth the $100 and $150 for the shader engine.
Richard Davey
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Posted: 16th Jul 2004 10:51
Errr Torque is nothing like the Unreal engine. It's the Tribes engine (which isn't half as nice as the Unreal engine imho).

"I am not young enough to know everything."
- Oscar Wilde
Represent
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Posted: 16th Jul 2004 11:14
Oops, typo. I knew it was one of those engines. I don't know what made me think it was the Unreal engine.

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walaber
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Posted: 16th Jul 2004 13:37
you should also check out the Irrlicht engine, it's another C++ based system, seems much more user-friendly than OGRE.

Go Go Gadget DBPRO!

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Zero Blitzt
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Posted: 16th Jul 2004 14:20
Sig test


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