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Hello,

While I'm sure many of you are hobbyists, and part time enthusiasts, I'm hoping others are interested in one day entering the Gaming Industry.

That's why I decided to post this question here first: How do you break into the game industry? It seems that at one time, a good knowledge of C/C++ and some Assembly, with no formal education, could get you into many game studios. Alas, as the industry matures, such entry has become rare, if not totally uncommon. So it would seem that a formal education would be a requisite if you wanted to get in, and certainly if you wanted to advance to say, project manager some day. The golden days of Atari seem to be long gone....


Having said that, what type of formal education would you think is the most desirable? BA? BS? Masters? I know the more the better, but I'm talking about breaking in, in other words entry level. Furthermore, would a highly specialized degree be more desirable to a generalized degree? Here's an example:

I have 2 colleges to attend one will give me a BA in Game Development with the following Curriculum:


Professional Skills Development
*Game Concept Design
*2D Computer Graphics Tools I
*Computer Programming Concepts
*2D Design
*Art History
›3D Modeling Concepts using Maya
*History of Games
*Composition I
*3D Materials Concepts using Maya
*Applied Game Theory
*Level Design
*3D Animation Concepts using Maya
*College Algebra
*Psychology of Creativity
*Physics and Motion
*Mythology, Folktale and Fairy Tale
*Character Development
*Game Artificial Intelligence Concepts
›Game Modeling
* MOD Development I
* MOD Development II
›XHTML
›C++ Programming I
›C++ Programming II
›Gaming Platforms and Standards
›Game Development in C++
›Game Production and Documentation
›Game Portfolio
›Game Animation
›Writing for Interactive Games
›20th Century Innovation
›Cultural Profiles
›Legal Issues for Electronic Media
›Pre Calculus
›Calculus I
›Calculus II
›Project Management in Technology
›Dreamweaver
›Computer Hardware Elements
›Selected Topics in Philosophy
›Internship

Which is nice, and I'm sure you noticed it's highly specialized on the industry as a whole.


At the same time I could also go to another school, and get a BS of Computer Information Technology with a curriculum such as:


CIT-100 Introduction to Computers & Lab 4
CIT-150 Programming Concepts & Lab 4
PDT-115 College Research & Study Skills 4
SOC-165 Sociology 4

CIT-120 Local Area Networks I & Lab 4
CIT-135 Operating Systems I & Lab 4
ENG-135 English Composition 4
PHL-145 Critical Thinking & Problem Solving 4

CIT-180 C Programming & Lab 4
CIT-355 UNIX Operating System & Lab 4
ENG-155 Advanced English Composition 4
PSY-215 Psychology 4

CIT-220 Local Area Networks II & Lab 4
CIT-210 Introduction to Database Management & Lab 4
ENG-230 Network Systems Administration I & Lab 4
SPH-305 Speech Communications 4

BUS-295 Business Accounting & Operations I 4
CIT-210 Technical Presentation: Business Writing 4
CIT-235 Network Systems Administration II & Lab 4
CIT-250 Object Oriented Systems Analysis & Design & Lab 4

BUS-100 Business Fundamentals 4
CIT-275 Visual Basic & Lab 4
CIT-330 WANs & Internetworking I & Lab 4
ENG-335 Introduction to Literature 4

ACC-125 Business Accounting & Operations II 4
CIT-315 Database Administration & Lab 4
CIT-325 C/C++ Programming & Lab 4
CIT-340 Internet I & Lab 4

CIT-335 WANs & Internetworking II & Lab 4
CIT-360 Systems Analysis, Design Methodology & Lab 4
CIT-370 Programming C++ in UNIX & Lab 4
ECN-375 World Economics 4
PMT-310 Project Management & Lab 4

CIT-390 UNIX System Administration & Lab 4
CIT-405 Structured Query Language & Lab 4
CIT-420 Network Management I & Lab 4
PHL-405 Ethics & Legal Issues 4

CIT-345 Internet II & Lab 4
CIT-465 Programming with JAVA & Lab 4
PDT-425 Career Strategies 4
PMT-410 Applied Project Management & Lab 4

CIT-440 IntraNetworking I & Lab 4
CIT-455 Database Design & Implementation & Lab 4
CIT-499 Senior Project & Lab 4
PDT-446 Emerging Technologies in CIT 4

BUS-455 International Law 4
CIT-425 Network Management II & Lab 4
CIT-445 IntraNetworking II & Lab 4
CIT-490 CASE Tools & Lab 4

Which takes the more general route, but gives you more experience in much more things.

Of course, let's remember "Jack of all trades, Master of none."

You see? So, In your opinions, which of the two above degrees would be more desirable in the real world, when trying to break into the industry. The position I'm looking towards specifically is programmer(tools, AI, CD). All replies are welcome and valued!

Thanks!

Xatnys

That alone will make you the bane of people like me, and you will find yourself bouncing from job to job.
Althought being open to new techniques and experiences to more 'generalise' is a good thing... but *ONLY* in your given field of expertise.

When your at college, learn the tools; not just what you need to in order to pass.
When you get a job, remember your part of a team, and you know NOTHING. College educations are nice, they show effort and years of experience; to the Human Resource Dept your like gold dust... to the grunts who have to work with you; your education means spit all.
It is how you perform and work with others that is important.

Your expected to LEARN your tools, not smiply learn function names and technical uses.

Hi there.

I think you misunderstood me. I meant remember the old addage "Jack of all trades master of none." and voice your input on it in relation to this topic. I wasn't endorsing it, as I personally have been thrown into that category my entire life due to my interests. Thanks for your thoughts though, I appreciate them!

Xatnys

"When your at college, learn the tools; not just what you need to in order to pass.
When you get a job, remember your part of a team, and you know NOTHING. College educations are nice, they show effort and years of experience; to the Human Resource Dept your like gold dust... to the grunts who have to work with you; your education means spit all.
It is how you perform and work with others that is important."


And I had to say that I totally can understand and agree with that!

Hi Xatnys,

First off, bear in mind that I don't work in the game programming/design industry.
I work in the ISP business (internet service provision), but the ideas and the general information that I am talking about can be applied to virtual any industry.

If I was hiring additional staff, I wouldn't be looking for the broad general coverage type of person that course #2 offers.
I'd be far more keen to get someone who chose to specialise in a particular area, like course #1 which from the descriptions you've given, closely aligns itself in the day to day activities of that particular industry.

In my case we provide internet service, so when I look at developers I am very interested in people who are good at php programming, perl, mysql etc. If they have extensive C++ skills, it's not exactly the sort of thing I (or the business needs) on a regular basis. Sure it shows me that the people applying are dedicated and can manage complex tasks and programming, but the skills I need aren't there.

If you want to work in the game industry, my vote is to go for the specialised degree. You'll be able to hit the ground running once you have a job and apply a great deal more about what you have learnt after X years doing your degree.

While a degree can be important, and is something that will benefit you regardless if you ever work in the game industry or not. There are also other things that you can do to seperate yourself from the crowd.

-Read books from people in the game industry (I don't necessarily mean that you need to buy them, visit libraries, or spend time taking some notes at your local B&N or Borders)

-Have an understanding of the different types of programming positions: GUI programmer, level programmer, tools, engine programmer, AI programmer etc... Or perhaps you will get your foot in the door as a game-tester, coffee fetcher (whatever it takes!)

-Work on a portfolio of original work (it doesn't have ot be graphically spectacular for a coding career) but some samples can show the efforts you are making. You can even work with an artist from the college you attend to help make them more appealing. Demos are good, but have at least some complete games (it shows that you have follow through).

-Be prepared to take a written code test. You should be familiar with some of the latest trends in data structures (eg. Trees,Linked lists, templated classes, stacks, queue's, arrays), algorithms, recursion, 3D manipulation etc, Shaders.

-Learn about companies you are interested in working for. What products do they make? How many locations do they have? What types of work are done in-house?

-Network (Try to attend industry shows, if it's a smaller company you may offer to work as an intern)

-Work very hard, try to learn all that you can, stay humble, read a lot, practice your coding, As Raven said learn tools and overall design, be flexible, be willing to relocate etc

~zen

I wouldn't go for a specialist computer game programming course, I'd go for more of a general advanced computer science type course.

While they may look useful, these specialist courses can leave you dead in the water if hte game making industry fails, or in the times move on, or if you try to seek employment in another field.

Take a look at respected developer's sites; and see what they ask for when advertising for vacancies.

For example, from ensemble studios' site:


Excellent communication skills

Great replies from all so far, I thank you.
(Replied in an order that will keep a good flow of conversation)

I can totally understand where Joker is coming from, as it seems that many industries are shaping themselves to look for more specialized employees, I see that same trend in this industry to some extent. Games are a little different than some business app, in the stress, deadlines, structure, and overall work and/or polish upon initial release(especially in console games, as you don't get to patch), than most business softwares and the like. Great thoughts Joker, I appreciate them!

On the other hand, I understand the point David T makes, as many companies still like a traditional foundation, even if it is not always as useful. Let me quantify opinion and ask for thoughts on it:
Not at all being a person to knock anyone who has a BS Comp Eng or BS Comp Sci degree, as I respect the degree very much; but the problem I've seen in most of these degree plans is that it focuses on theory, rather than the actual practice. I think that is the main reason I would not want such a degree. Now, some could easily argue that as long as you took that theory and implemented it, everything would be ok. I totally agree, but that's not going to happen in every instance, and those who do will also not implement everything that should be. That's just my opinion, formed from speaking with a few persons I have come to know, some with Masters of Comp Sci., and some who are your "hacker" type with no formal edu, but have great skill.

Also, I notice that in the ad snippet offered by David, it does state "Additionally the following skills are helpful:" Helpful but not mandatory? Now, I'd read that and think at first, " Hmm well if some guy comes in at the same time, he has a CS degree, and I have a specialized Game Dev degree, they'd pick him first. But is this necessarily true? I mean what if my c/c++ are light years ahead of his? What if he's not a "hardcore gamer"(another of their "helpful skills") but I, being an avid gamer, am? I'd really like thoughts on this, as I think these topics cloud the issue the most.

Zenassem,

Wow, I can't agree with you enough on that. I am, and have been a firm believer that all learning is self learning, and that nothing can stop when a textbook closes or a class ends. I've often garnered much in the way of criticism by friends, as I try not to stop investigating a subject when it's course has been "passed", especially when I hold great interest in it. Rest assured that I truly believe in spending nights in, studying with a good Book that furthers my understanding, than to rely on a course to teach me all I need. I believe, a very important and fundamental truth was weaved into your reply, and hope that others in my situation see that as well.

Great Stuff, I hope to hear more!

Xatnys

Just to add to that list, hash tables. For some reason when I last talked to game devs at Microsoft, they were really keen on hash tables.
--
TAZ

Good point Zircher,

Many people underestimate sorting algorithms, and the many other uses for hash tables, reagrding Microsoft;it probably had to do with encryption.

Bump

Any further input? Here's to hopin'.

Xatnys,

Nothing much from me at this point in time, however I feel pretty envious that you have the opportunity to go and do the game development course. If only I had had those opportunites when I was doing my studies. I'm too entrenched in my current industry (and maybe too old) to really consider further degree studies these days. So best of luck to you.

What I would really like to see if an online diary (blog) that you keep updated on your progress through the course, what you are studying, what you are learning. Then we can all live through the experience with you. Would be good and I would certainly read it on a regular basis.

Keep us up to date on what you decide.

Hey there Joker2,

I'm really new to the whole game dev scene, but I wanted to put in my two cents on your first comment. I'd say, and again I haven't proven this, but I'd wager that age is less of a factor for a programming type of position in games, than say marketing or artwork/design.

My reasoning for that would be that as a programmer, while your dealing with constantly evolving tech, you're doing so on a machine level(or near machine level), so there's little to no "stylized" aspects of your job. That would make me think that if you had the skill with the code, then you'd not have to be a "hipster doofus"(no offense meant to any trendy persons).

Game Programmers in the mainstream coporate side of the biz, seem to have a lot less input on overall content, or steering of the game, excluding what you can't do due to time or technological constraints.

A programmer is less likely to have to be able to identify with the game's target demographic, as his code will be stable and reliable, if he knows his code, not if he know's who's on the billboard top 10 .

As far as current industry entrenchment, I can't even imagine what it's like to be established in a career field, but I'm sure that it'd be a hard decision to leave. If you're happy where you are, and enjoy a good life(both materially and stress free), then that'd be even harder to give up for the hell that I hear coporate game dev is. But those are factors only you truly can consider.

So I'd encourage you to pursue something in this field professionally, if that's what you decide you really want to do and is best for you. Maybe others will have thoughts on this line of thinking(for or against).


Anyways, man the idea for a Blog covering my experience is an *excellent*, *excellent* idea! Not only would it give insight to what such a major is all about, but I can dicuss topics as I learn them, which could reinforce my understanding of the areas of study I discuss.

Truly a fine idea, I'll figure out how to make that a reality. I have a tidbit of time before school, roughly starting in late aug or around there.

I'll post on this thread when I have an address for it setup, and add that info to my Signature as well.


Thanks again!

Xatnys

Well,
For any and all interested my blog is in it's formative phase at the moment. I hope to start putting up more info, but am still finalizing my educational details. Remember to keep checking back, as this is a long project that I hope will grow in scope and relevance soon.

http://xatnysgames.blogspot.com/

Thanks

Xatnys

testing new signature...

Bookmarked!

Good luck with your blog and with your course.

Something to consider for the future is the ability to have an area or mechanism where people reading the blog can add comments, offer advice or just ask questions.
I'm not that familiar with bloggspot so no idea if they offer that as a service.
Course you'd need to filter it for the wack jobs that have Tourette's Syndrome.

Oh a link to the course you are taking would be handy too. Just so we can review what punishment you are in for..