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Geek Culture / Boxing Software

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Fallout
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Location: Basingstoke, England
Posted: 1st Aug 2004 07:13
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Just a very quick rant (cos I'm half watching a film) that it's miffing me a lot that a lot of software (and most of the software sold by TGC) is all about electronic distribution these days.

I think it's crap. I think it's crap that, with gameSpace for example, you have to pay £165, and then download it, and print out a PDF manual ...... for £165. To me, that's almost insulting. It's obviously to maximize profit, and minimise difficulty in distribution. But at the same time, it's drastically cheapening the product in my eyes.

I was happily reading through the info about gameSpace and getting more into the idea of buying it, even for £165. Then I had a look at the purchase system and its electronic distribution. Asking for a heafty wadge of cash and then giving you nothing except a download link and a serial number is just wrong, in my opinion.

Proggies like NGC charge you next to nothing, and that justifies the electronic distribution, but the rest of this stuff is just asking too much - especially gameSpace. I seriously would buy it, but not without a manual on my desk and a shiney boxed CD. It might not be much, but at least I dont have to worry about backups, downloading on crappy dial-up, printing out the manual myself and looking after a serial key. And above all, I can hold something tangible for my hard earned £165 (which is a lot of money!!!).

Anyway, rant done. I guess I'm just a bit miffed cos I liked the idea of gameSpace, but I will not buy a download link for £165. Especially from an establish company with a lot of capital under their belts. This isn't an attack at TGC, btw, as I know these are third party products.

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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 1st Aug 2004 07:27
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Yes, with complicated software like gameSpace it should come with a manual. The problem is, as far as I can see (or rather what Copernic returns), is the Calagri has no UK stores to distribute their software - hence they dont want to send the complete packaging from America to here.

However, saying that my Netfusion 8 did come from Germany (I think), and that came with a manual.


Come to the UK Convention on the 23rd & 24th of October
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Fallout
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Posted: 1st Aug 2004 07:29
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Hmm. If you go to their own personal website, it's the same story. I'm not sure if they do a boxed copy at all.

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Richard Davey
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Posted: 1st Aug 2004 11:22
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They don't do a boxed version, there is no need, more and more people are getting used to buying online - manuals are often outdated the moment they are printed, CDs useless without the downloading of various upgrades, etc. It's just the way things are now. Nearly all of the professional level software I use is download only (Zend Studio, which was way more money than gameSpace when I bought it, is a good example).

Printing manuals, making boxes, pressing CDs, postage, etc is a very expensive business to be in, especially with new and un-certain products. Look at the price of trueSpace in comparison to gameSpace to see what I mean. The new gameSpace manual is a fully indexed searchable Windows CHM file, which is far more useful than their printed version, believe me! There are some programs where it just doesn't matter.

"I am not young enough to know everything."
- Oscar Wilde
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Sir Spaghetti Code
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Posted: 1st Aug 2004 17:53
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I'm sorry, but I am completely with Fallout. If I am going to pay $299 for software, I think I should get a box and CD case and REAL manuel if I want it. Offer both, just like DBpro. You can download it if you want it NOW, or you can order it if you are like me, and want some kind of physical representation that you spent that much money on a program. And I know what some people will say, "In the scope of things, it is not that expensive". But other programs that cost more do send a box and instructions.

I think that what it really boils down to for me, is that I want something that I can touch, hold, and put on me book shelf with my other game boxes to represent the amoutn of money I spent for it. After I saw that it was download only, I for one will most likey be looking else where for a similar program.

Also, the online manuels are just not well suited for me. I work at a call center that gets very slow on the week-ends, and I like to bring my game dev manuels to work with me and read them cover to cover. I can't do that without printing the whole thing out. Then it looks very unappealing. It also strains my eyes to read something on a moniter for hours on end.

Not to even begin going into the troubles for poor dial-up users! Sorry, I'll calm down now. I'm just glad that someone did bring this up!

Fraggles where quite the scary lot...
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Fallout
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Posted: 1st Aug 2004 19:32
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I appreciate Rich's comments. Looking at my dbpro materials, yes they are outdated. If I install dbpro now, I'm missing a whole bunch of upgrades which I have to download anyway. Also, I never use the manuals, because the context sensitive help is more intuitive, but I also knew most of the commands from db before I bought dbp.

However, Sir Spag is on the same wavelength as me, in that if you're charging an arm and a leg, you should be supplying a CD and a manual. At the very least, a CD. I'd imagine it is a costly process to create a heafty manual, but running up a bunch of printed CDs with inserts costs next to nothing if you go to the right company.

I think the main problems I have with online software are:

(1) You don't have anything tangible for your money. When your computer is switched off, there is nothing anywhere to represent your vast amounts of cash. Not even a paper receipt!

(2) You can get the EXACT same thing through piracy. The insentive before to avoid piracy was you always had a nice shiney CD and manual and you felt confident you had the full product and full support. Now, dragging a copy off Kazaa will give you the same package as you get from paying. And the insentive to pay to help up-and-coming developers is not there for bigger companies, such as Calagari, who claim to have already sold over 10,000 units of their products (at hundred of quid a throw!!)

(3) Dial-up users like myself have a nightmare downloading anything over about 10MB. Broadband just isn't available here just yet. Imagine having to go through that hassle for every product I buy. For some very large products, it would actually take me longer to download the bloody thing, than it would to wait for it to be delivery by post.

(4) When my system is reformatted, for example, I need to ensure I have an internet connection incase products aren't backed up properly. As a uni student, I'm always moving house and often ending up without internet access.

But anyway, it'd be nice to get some authors into this discussion who are releasing these products. I just hope authors are aware that they are people like myself Sir Spaghetti that are willing to buy their products, but not in an online form. I mean, that's potentially £330/$600 that calagari have already lost.

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Richard Davey
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Posted: 1st Aug 2004 20:08
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Quote: "I mean, that's potentially £330/$600 that calagari have already lost."


Look at it from their point of view - they haven't lost anything at all because if you truly judge a piece of software on its delivery method alone and not what it can actually do then you're probably not really appreciating the software for itself.

The fact you'd just grab a hacked copy simply because there isn't a boxed version also demonstrates no appreciation for the software itself. If you truly believe it took Caligari any less time to work on, research and develop gameSpace just because its download only then I'm sorry, that's a little misguided.

I DO believe they ought to offer a CD version, especially because its such a large program to download - they are shooting themselves in the foot there. It should also be properly cased in a nice DVD box or something, maybe with a little getting started guide. But it is their choice really and they obviously don't see it impacting on sales enough to care about.

Quote: "If I am going to pay $299 for software, I think I should get a box and CD case and REAL manuel if I want it."


That's just not the way it works any more. I spent nearly $1000 on the Zend web site on software and $299 on SourceGuardian and I had to burn them to CD myself and printed out the manual myself. Why? Because I know how good the programs were and I wanted them. At the end of the day a box would have done nothing but take up shelf space, it serves no practical purpose. I consider the software more important than the packaging.

"I am not young enough to know everything."
- Oscar Wilde
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Fallout
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Posted: 1st Aug 2004 22:13
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Quote: "The fact you'd just grab a hacked copy simply because there isn't a boxed version also demonstrates no appreciation for the software itself. If you truly believe it took Caligari any less time to work on, research and develop gameSpace just because its download only then I'm sorry, that's a little misguided."


I conciously avoided saying that, because I'm aware a boxed or unboxed version doesn't mean it took any more or less development time to make. As for a grabbing a hacked copy, I personally wouldn't, although it's tempting. The only reason why it's tempting being that, when you think about it, the only difference in the end result is the difference in my bank balance. What I end up with is the same. That makes it tempting. Having said that, I can't download it anyway, as it's just too large for a dial-up user.

I think maybe then my main dislike for online software is the dial-up issue. It really takes a rediculous amount of effort and aggravation to download anything large. Disconnections, having to reconnect (BT Internet will ban you if you use auto-redial software, as I have already found out), having to leave the PC on overnight and actually get up in the middle of the night to reconnect the bastard, constantly disconnect to check call-minder for messages etc. Disconnect when someone wants to make a call. All in all, with all those problems, it can take a week to download something of a couple of hundred MB if you're not leaving your PC on over night. It's rediculous.

Broadband on the other hand, is a different story. I downloaded XP Pro in about 1 hour on 1Mbps when I was at uni. (Legally btw. I am entitiled to free microsoft software as part of my uni course). But then again, that was free. I probably would've wanted a shiney CD, manual and certificate of authenticity if I was paying for it!

So I suppose on a decent broadband connection, it's not so bad. But as a dial-up user, there's no way you can justify online applications to me. I just end up resenting what I have to do to get them!

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Richard Davey
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Posted: 1st Aug 2004 23:05
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Quote: "So I suppose on a decent broadband connection, it's not so bad. But as a dial-up user, there's no way you can justify online applications to me."


Yes, I agree totally with this. If they don't offer an alternative it is quite literally their loss.

Quote: "The only reason why it's tempting being that, when you think about it, the only difference in the end result is the difference in my bank balance. What I end up with is the same."


To be honest that argument applies to software fullstop, not just software delivered via download. A chipped PS2/X-Box running copies of games have the same argument - why bother paying when you can copy for a few quid when all you get is a little DVD box?

The main difference with gameSpace I guess is that each copy is personalised to that user, so if you do hack it it's never really yours and I think part of you always knows this, you feel no sense of ownership.

"I am not young enough to know everything."
- Oscar Wilde
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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 1st Aug 2004 23:22
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Yea, I'm with Fallout. If I spent hard earned money on software I would at least like to have the feeling when I go to bed at night that it's sitting saftly on my desk in a neat packedge that and I could easly reinstall it if my computer suddently crashed, or melted, or blew up or both. Sometimes, to me, buying on-line software is like paying real currency for that really good Bow you wanted in Diablo II.

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Richard Davey
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2004 00:14
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Most software you buy on-line can only ever be installed/activated if you have an on-line connection anyway, gameSpace being one such example, so I don't see how having it in a box helps in this instance. You still can't use it if your PC melts, etc etc.

Expect to see more and more programs available as download-only, not the other way around. I personally cannot remember the last time I bought Norton Anti-virus boxed, it's much cheaper to get the download version and less hassle too. Just one example of many.

"I am not young enough to know everything."
- Oscar Wilde
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Sir Spaghetti Code
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2004 06:11 Edited at: 2nd Aug 2004 06:14
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OK, I don't think you really understand where we are coming from saying "you're probably not really appreciating the software for itself". I do want the program, but the idea of having no physical representation for my $299 is a major turn off for me. It is not the only program that does what it can do, and with the competition out there, I think that it may become an impact on it. I believe I might get a lower version of Maya instead, as it comes with a huge manual, a DVD on how to use it, and much more.

It is not a matter of me not appreciating the software. Do you really think I wanted to buy it for the box at $299?

EDIT: Now, Tree Magic Pro I can understand. Or really any program under $70! But not $299. I appreciate the amount of work that goes into it, but damn it...I just want a box with it. You claim that it is a bad or indifferent thing to have the box takig up space on your bookshelf, but I enjoy having it there! To each his own

Fraggles where quite the scary lot...
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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2004 06:53
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True, especially the manual part. People want a physical book that they can sit down and read when they aren't at thier computer. Carring around a large stack of printed paper thats falling apart is just...weird...

The only thing I can make an expetion is for something like cart shop. Which is a decent program, doesn't need no manual, and isn't as expensive and some of the other stuff out there. (But still expensive)

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Powersoft
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2004 17:00
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i like software with a box, manual etc...

but if the only way to get what i want is by doing it electronically i will have to.


(btw. i have been put off a few programs on this sight due to electronic versions.)


Create or Play? You choose!
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Richard Davey
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2004 18:45
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Quote: "OK, I don't think you really understand where we are coming from saying "you're probably not really appreciating the software for itself"."


That was in relation to obtaining it via Kazaa. But if you cannot see past the fact it doesn't come in a box, then I'm sorry but you are not looking at the software itself, i.e. the actual program that gets installed on your PC, but rather you're looking at the "package" as a whole (or the lack of it!).

Quote: "I do want the program, but the idea of having no physical representation for my $299 is a major turn off for me."


Fair enough - so it's a turn off for you. That doesn't mean it applies to everyone else. I personally see the software as being the important part, not what it comes in. There are other issues here though, $299 to me isn't a horrendously large amount of money to spend on software if I know it will do the job. If you were talking about the likes of the wallet-busting 3DS Max or Maya then that would be a different story and I would want the box, manual, personal massage, et all. But for $299 that need isn't so great.

Just like you can appreciate buying software for $70 or so. It's the same thing, different value.

Quote: "It is not the only program that does what it can do"


Actually, for that price range, it is. Which is probably why it's selling quite well for them. I personally have always thought 3D software is WAY over-priced (3DS, Maya, Lightwave, C4D, etc). Have never really understood why they charge so much. I guess because it's such a low-volume industry.

Quote: "I believe I might get a lower version of Maya instead, as it comes with a huge manual, a DVD on how to use it, and much more."


It ain't $299 though! A version with a license similar to gameSpace (i.e. non-restrictive use of anything created with it) starts at $1999. You can't compare the Educational versions/Maya PLE because they cannot be used in the same way.

Quote: "It is not a matter of me not appreciating the software. Do you really think I wanted to buy it for the box at $299?"


Actually, yes, that is exactly what it sounds like. To you a $299 product should be boxed, printed, all-singing, all-dancing, etc. While I agree the software itself should be the dogs bollocks, I don't care about a box at that price point. Stick another few hundred $ on that and I will agree totally. Everyone has their own personal threshold. What would be interesting is if Caligari made a $350 version, boxed with the manual printed and sold it next to the $299 version - which would sell more? I can almost guarantee it would be the electronic one. As much as people like boxes, they like saving money even more.

Cheers,

Rich

"I am not young enough to know everything."
- Oscar Wilde
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Fallout
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2004 04:23 Edited at: 3rd Aug 2004 06:19
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Rich, I hate to say it, but I think it's partly due to the fact that £165 is a lot more to some people than it is to yourself. Especially the kiddies on here, who can't even comprehend £165, let alone be able to remain concious while it sits in their sweating palms.

If you have to empty your bank account to buy stuff, you want the whole shebang. If it's a mild dent in the corner of your solid gold wallet, then you can concentrate on the main deal - the software.

This is no snidey dig at you having more money, or anything like that. I just think, the more it hurts the wallet, the more you want for your money.

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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2004 06:05
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He's right Rich. We are on different levels. You're an adult, with a job, and probably a house. Most of us are broke teenagers who aren't even out of school yet. Or 10 year old children who sneak on thier parents computer when they aren't looking and brew MMORPGs.

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Richard Davey
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2004 22:47
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You're both right - which is why I covered my ass with several statements along the lines of "it's a personal threshold thing" (etc etc) in my original post, basically saying exactly what you just confirmed

All I'm tyring to point out is that this will never change - when you get older, have more disposable income, etc - the same issue will still be here, it will just have a higher dollar value attached to it.

"I am not young enough to know everything."
- Oscar Wilde
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Fallout
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Posted: 4th Aug 2004 04:37
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I've just landed a lucrative year in industry. I just still have the broke student mentality.

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