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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / SHADERS - how do they work

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 23rd Aug 2004 13:22
Matt, I posted the GF Friendly version after your version to show you... YOU DIDN'T NEED A MASSIVE CHANGE YOU DID.
Infact your post clearly states you believed it was the m4x4 function, which I was correcting you on.

I also posted up a close to direct ASM->HLSL... I even posted in my post that is EXACTLY what I had done. Read the f**king post next time, and if with your limited knowlage you could've done that... then next time do so.

either use HLSL or use ASM... DBP has far better ASM Shader controls than it does for HLSL and they actually work correctly.

-- -- --

those so-called 'perks' of Radeons are wonderfull and brilliant... yeah lets all use the amazingly cool Shader 1.4 specification or lets have the card correct our shader mistakes for us and 'optimise' certain routines whilst were at it.

It is all fun and games until you realise that you have just spend a good 8-9hours working on a particular effect which will not work on ANY OTHER SHADER HARDWARE EXCEPT ATIs.

You have 6 Brands of Shader hardware to think about.
NVIDIA set the specifications which others are to use, they're cards aren't lacking, they perform EXACTLY how the Shader *should* perform.

Radeons are such a beautiful thing ... even better when that f**king canadian company would start to adhear to the damn rules of the game.
I hope someone indites the whole damn company for what they're doing to the market. They're making it a joke!


David T
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Posted: 23rd Aug 2004 18:48 Edited at: 23rd Aug 2004 20:19
Yes I had a ti4800 and it wasn't working. I'll check the new version soon.


Thanks

[edit]

Quote: "@Other People with nVidia Hardware:
Any luck getting the updated hologram shader to work? I'm quite eager to get this sorted out, so I can make sure my future shaders are nicely compatible. "


Raven's NVIDIA friendly version works like a charm. Great shaders, thanks both of you

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Ninja Matt
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Posted: 23rd Aug 2004 20:20
@Raven:
No, Raven, I'm not going to argue with you. You've already had this sort of anti-ATI argument with people like Neophyte and it wouldn't be much different this time. Although, I'd like to point out that this is the second time that you've re-written one of my shaders in HLSL and tried to claim that you've helped me in some way. Why don't we see you put your uber-shader-skills put to better use and make some shaders for the community? And I don't mean a copy of one of FX Composer's sample shaders, tweaked and then emailed to a random guy, I mean a hand-written shader posted in a little code window so we can all have a look at it. If you can do that, I'll readily apologise for hinting that you scarcely know anything about shaders.

I'm actually quite chuffed that I've angered you to the point of swearing! I knew some of my anti-nVidia comments would rile you a bit!

You know though, my post didn't state that I thought it was the m4x4 instruction - it suggested that might be a problem, but it pointed mostly towards the missing pixel shader (read the f'ing post next time), which evidently was the problem. However, by knocking off one of the m4x4 instructions, I did actually optimise the shader by one tick, which I'm quite happy with. But, that was an unnecessary massive change of course.

*ARGUEMENT ENDS - TAKE IT ELSEWHERE*

@Stevie:
Sorry, I might have made a mistake in my last post about the hook value - it's probably a value of one that's set automatically, not a value of zero. I haven't needed to check a hook value for so long that I can't remember...

@Preston:
Ah, excellent! Good to hear it's working!

Also, I quite like your snow and cartoon shaders; any more in the works?

@Everybody:
Okay, that's one shader down, and working nicely. Well, for Preston, anyway! So, if anybody else has a bit of spare time, could you test out one of the other shaders I've made, please?

http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/wisemonkeys/darkbasic/Metal11.zip

If this one works on a GeForce, then I'm sure all the other ones I've made do, since this is the most complex one I've got. Example program and all the usual stuff is provided, of course.

Good luck!
David T
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Posted: 23rd Aug 2004 20:22
Metal one works okay Matt.

Got any more really funky effects that us lowlings without PS 2 can use? Like water for example (hint, hint)?

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Ninja Matt
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Posted: 23rd Aug 2004 20:55
And, score!

I've only released two other shaders - a simple bumpmap shader and a terrain shader, which was specific to one guy's needs. If you want them, they're in the Ultimate Shader Thread, along with PS 1.1 versions that aren't included in the .zip files.

The next shader I'm going to do will be an update to the bumpmap shader, which will have multiple lights, falloff, etc, so it's more useful to the people that want to use it. I'm currently figuring out the best way of getting lots of data squashed into the PS 1.1 format. It shouldn't be hard to get something like two lights, but I'd rather get more if I can!

Still, if you want a water shader, I'll add that as the next item on my list. I had a go at making one for a friend a few weeks ago, but shaders don't have native sine functions and the Taylor approximation stumped me a bit, so it never really got off the ground!

What sort of water shader would you want? Something to throw onto a basic 2-poly plain, where the textures do all the work, or would you like per-vertex animated waves, too?
David T
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Posted: 23rd Aug 2004 21:18
Just something to throw at a plain, please Although how hard would it be to get animated waves aswell?

A neat effect would be to have it "sparkle" and the further away you get and hence the smaller the viewing angle is the more sparkle you get.

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Ninja Matt
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Posted: 23rd Aug 2004 21:27
Ah, that's alright then - using texture on their own doesn't need any (co)sine approximations! I certainly could get vertex-animated waves going, but unless I copy some code straight out of a RenderMonkey sample, it'll take me a week or so to do!

Sparkle isn't too hard to do, either. In fact, a lot of watery effects are suprisingly easy to do. I'll see what I can knock up when I've got time - I should have something for you by the end of the week.
Stevie
User Banned
Posted: 23rd Aug 2004 22:51
Thanx for all the help Ninja and Preston (also to everyone else). It is apresciated u taking time to explain and detail.

Unlike Raven(that name suits him well....................) i am very very interested in learning programming in Dark Basic. I programmed in the 80's in basic for many many years and took steps into assembler language and recently i came back to programming and am enjoying it very much.

I am not after a quick fix to make my game look good. The one i am working on at the moment took me 5 weeks just to get a small part of it - like the 'Eye Candy' i wanted. I spend many many hours a day programming - but Raven seemed to think i was just after a quick fix to make my visuals look good.

i want to breath, understand and comprehend shaders - and how am i ever supposed to - if people like Raven prove to be rude like he is.

Funny... all this programming is swelling over into my day job - i am so adicted - but thats not too bad - as i write music for a living from home - and that will come in handy for my games too.

If anyone would like any music for there games - as i am very apreciative for all the shader help - jut drop me a line and i will be more than happy to acomodate.
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 23rd Aug 2004 23:10
Quote: "No, Raven, I'm not going to argue with you. You've already had this sort of anti-ATI argument with people like Neophyte and it wouldn't be much different this time. Although, I'd like to point out that this is the second time that you've re-written one of my shaders in HLSL and tried to claim that you've helped me in some way. Why don't we see you put your uber-shader-skills put to better use and make some shaders for the community? And I don't mean a copy of one of FX Composer's sample shaders, tweaked and then emailed to a random guy, I mean a hand-written shader posted in a little code window so we can all have a look at it. If you can do that, I'll readily apologise for hinting that you scarcely know anything about shaders."


Do your damn homework.
a/ I was the first person in this forum to get shaders working.
b/ There is a collection of around 16 ASM Shaders in all from back when I was working on them for the community which are strewn across this forum which at 100% my own work.

The reason I DONT make shaders for the community is simple.
I've tried before, asked everyone if they wanted shaders... to the reply I got several bitchy replies about only I seemed to have hardware capable of running them.
Further more quite frankly DBPs shader routines are close to pointless, the speed and access you have with them is so damn limiting all you can do are the most basic things.

If you want to go on believeing somehow that your Radeon is oh-so-special, go ahead. But at the end of the day, when I work on a Shader I know that I can release it working on my hardware and it will work on ATI, S3, SiS, Matrox, etc... without having to alter it even slightly.

Once again, I see another thread where someone's ego about getting the infamous Shaders to run under DBP is got so large thier head wont fit through the door.
Tis fantastic... creating ASM Shaders in HLSL, when you should be doing it via the ASM Shader Functions.

It allows for better setup and more control over your code unless.
But yeah don't listen to anything said to you, i mean obviously your becomming more and more of an expert everyday who doesn't need help or advice about things.

If doing this stuff is so simple to do in HLSL, then use it so the end use can setup thier own Techniqués to allow this cards to adapt to a compatible system for thier card.
It's like using ASM in C... the extra functionality isn't just there to look pretty you idiot, it's there to help compatiblity and setup.

At the end of the day I'm trying to help you if you *insist* on actually putting out things which this community doesn't need.
But I am quite clearly seeing your as thick headed as that moron Neophyte.

there are a number of questions i am still hearing throughout this thread and other shader threads... i could answer all of them, and I could help sort out all the shaders out there so they work first time, every time on everyones systems.
but screw it, if your such an 'expert' have fun with your little following of people who are going to wuv you forever for the work your doing.

And btw, I know you've said 'but i'm doing this all my own work'... take out the comments to the Bloom Shader and Hologram Shaders, and it's remarkable just how close they are to my NVSDK Cg ones.
Probably just cooincidence though, eh?


Stevie
User Banned
Posted: 23rd Aug 2004 23:25
RAVEN - JUST WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM. WHY DO YOU HAVE THE WEIGHT OF THE WORLD ON YOUR SHOULDERS AND PICK AT EVERY BODIES COMMENTS????????????????/


iT SEEM YOU ARE ONE SAD INDIVIDUAL IF ALL U DO ALL DAY IS VIRTUALLY... SHOUT AT PEOPLE, MOAN AT THEM, MOCK THERE IDEAS.

WAS THERE NOT A TIME WHEN U DIDNT UNDERSTAND THINGS - AND ASKED PEOPLES ADVICE ON WHAT TO DO - AFTER ALL THIS IS WHAT WE TEACH CHILDERN - TO ASK AND TAKE IN AND THEY WILL EVENTUALLY UNDERSTAND OR WAS U BORN INTO THIS WORLD A PAIN IN THE ARSE WHO THINGS HE KNOWS EVERYTHING. i AM NOT DOUBTING YOUR KNOWLEDGE, BUT PLEASE DONT CONDEMN EVERYONE ELSE FOR TRYING TO DO THINGS THERE WAY - OR FOR ASKING QUESTIONS.

TO BE HONEST - I DONT THINK U SHOULD EVEN BE ON THIS FORUMN OR CONTRIBUTE - A FORUMN IS A PLACE FOR PEOPLE TO HELP, DISCUSS AND DISCOVER.

U DONT KNOW WHO I AM - BUT INSTANTLY MAKE ASSUMTIONS ABOUT HOW OLD I AM, ETC ETC ETC AND HOW I WANT QUICK FIXES. I DONT

MY CAREER IS A PROFESSIONAL SONG WRITER WITH MANY MANY RECORDS OUT AND SOME BIG REMIX WORK ESPECIALLY IN THE DANCE MUSIC SCENE. IT HAS TOOK ME A LONG TIME TO DEVELOP MY SKILLS AS A MUSICIAN AND SONG WRITER, AND I WOULDNT HAVE GOT VERY FAR WITHOUT THE HELP FROM OTHERS - BUT MY BURNING DESIRE TO TAKE THE ADVICE IN AND MAKE IT WORK FOR ME. IN THE MUSIC FIELD I NOW LOVE TO HELP OTHERS AND WILL SPEND MANY DAYS TEACHING AND HELPING PEOLE WITH VIRTUAL MUSIC CREATION SOFTWARE AND IT MAKES ME CRINGE WHEN SOMEONE LIKE U EXISTS IN THESE FORUMNS TO SIMPLE SLAG PEOPLE OFF.

I HAVE LOOKED THROUGH THESE FORUMNS FOR THE PAST TWO YEARS - AND I HAVE NEVER SEEN A THREAD FROM YOU THAT IS POLITE AND PLEASENT - YOUR ALWAYS HAVING A GO.

TO COIN ONE OF YOUR PHRASES 'IT IS DAMN RUDE TO EXPECT..///' - THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT YOU ARE



STEVE
Van B
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Posted: 23rd Aug 2004 23:27
The both of you have a compo to see who can make the best water shader that only needs a simple plain and some textures - we all want neat fast simple shaders that can be used in games, so make us happy please - shader coding type people out there.


Van-B


Muhahahahaha.
Stevie
User Banned
Posted: 23rd Aug 2004 23:41
I found that by texturing a plain object with a swirly water type caustic texture from gamespace - and then using SIN * COS with a random number seed to make the texture rotate subtly. Then applying a sphere map with a darker texutre which is quite similar to the original, and then ghosting this.

Then, put making another plain object to go underneath the waterline - ghosting this and setting cube mapping on with a few different water textures.
I have been working for 5 weeks solid - to get the EYE CANDY i wanted for my water feature - and i have now done it so i am very pleased.
Van B
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Posted: 23rd Aug 2004 23:47
Sounds nice - any chance of a screenie?


Van-B


Muhahahahaha.
Ninja Matt
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Posted: 24th Aug 2004 06:00
@Raven:
Quote: "I was the first person in this forum to get shaders working."

Quote: "Where someone's ego about getting the infamous Shaders to run under DBP is got so large thier head wont fit through the door."

I quite like how these two fit together, don't you?

Quote: "There is a collection of around 16 ASM Shaders in all from back when I was working on them for the community which are strewn across this forum which at 100% my own work."

So, rather than simply show me one, at which point I'll concede that you do know about shaders, you insist on writing a page and a half of pointless personal attacks on me. Considering how often you argue, you're not very good at it.

Quote: "If you want to go on believeing somehow that your Radeon is oh-so-special"

I don't believe that Radeon cards are "oh-so-special", as you put it. However, I do know that they aren't as appallingly bad as you make them out to be. From my experience with each, their performance tends to be very close between similar cards, and each seems to have their own unique take on things. While GeForce might not support PS 1.4 too well, because it's an ATI thing, Radeon doesn't exactly support OpenGL that well. I think it's you that's got a problem with your "oh-so-special" nVidia - perhaps you don't like how ATI has caught up to nVidia recently, maybe you're a die-hard fanboy, maybe you just don't like red...

Quote: "I could answer all of them, and I could help sort out all the shaders out there"

Then why don't you? Just saying "Screw it" doesn't sound like a good excuse to me. And, when I have tried to pretend I'm an expert? I could never match your pretending skills!

Quote: "If you *insist* on actually putting out things which this community doesn't need."

If I had an ego as big as yours, I'd *insist* on a forum-wide vote to see who's put out the most useful stuff over the past few months. Oh, and rampant, over-the-top criticism and ATI-bashing doesn't count as useful.

Quote: "I know you've said 'but i'm doing this all my own work'"

No, I don't remember saying that - I think, like most other things you say, you're making it up.

Actually, I'm quite happy to say that I've been helped by the many samples I've seen. The concept behind the glow shader was taken from a couple of the screenspace effects that come with FX Composer, although the code was mostly written by me, at least. The Hologram shader was initially written in RenderMonkey (my first self-made shader), as a slight variation on a basic point light system with the camera position as the light, and with inverted colours on the object. Later, after seeing the membrane shader in the NVEffects Browser, I adapted it to work with a 2D lookup texture rather than a colour constant.

Now, instead of writing all that, I could have been working on the updated normal mapping shader that I'd promised everyone. The problem is, you see, arguing with you is addictive - your arguments have so many contradictions, holes and innaccuracies to them that I can't help but type a sarcastic reply! I'm sure a lot of people on this forum feel the same way, even though you still annoy them all the time.

@Stevie:
Well done! That's another point to us in the Raven vs. World competition! Has anyone been keeping track of the score? I lost count in the old forums a few years ago...

Still, you'll get an ocean shader. Eventually. I've got a few ideas floating around in my head, and it's now a matter of squashing as many of them as I can into four textures! Whether or not it'll be better than your current effect is a different story!

@Van B
Sure, I'm up for a quick competition! Lots of people want water shaders, so I doubt anything'll go to waste! Do you shade, or are you just a watcher?
David T
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Posted: 24th Aug 2004 06:30
Quote: "Well done! That's another point to us in the Raven vs. World competition! "


And you lot complain about his attitude?

Raven's always been pleasant to me. I'm polite to him, don't take the piss all the time and he's helpful back and most of the time deilvers.

Only today I got fur working thanks to him.

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Preston C
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Posted: 24th Aug 2004 07:28 Edited at: 24th Aug 2004 07:43
@David: I used to respect him and I tried to be polite to him too, he would even help me out when I asked him about shaders on MSN who knows how many months ago, but not since that stupid E3 post where he supposedly had something to show but never showed it, where he called me "the cock of the walk" when I was trying to make a point. Since then, I've lost any respect for him and his lies, and I try my hardest not to just lash out at him on the forums.

If he would actually show some of his work on the forums though, I'm sure I'd regain some respect for him, but since he only shows it to a few random people on IRC, and no one else, I doubt that'll ever happen. Besides, I'm just some "stupid kid" that thinks I'm "the cock of the walk" so i doubt Raven wouldn't care if I respect him or not.

Quote: "Also, I quite like your snow and cartoon shaders; any more in the works?
"


Thanks, the snow shader was actually Las6's idea, he gave me the idea in IRC a while ago, and I just decided to give it a shot. And yeah, I've got a few in the works, mostly simple ones, also going to attempt a new water shader, need an improvement over my last one ...

Cheers,
Preston


Intel Celeron 1.3 Ghrz 512 MB Ram nVidia GeForce FX 5200 128MB
ionstream
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Posted: 24th Aug 2004 10:26
So, is an ATI shader difficult to convert to an nVidia one? If it's easy, you can just make 2.

Judging by Ravens post I'd say that a "Geforce-Friendly" FX file is one in which the Vertexshader and Pixelshader objects are completely written in ASM (which isn't difficult, youd just say something like "multiply(a,b,s)" to "mul a b s"). Am I right?

Also, the water in BattleField 1942 was just a bumpmapped multitextured plane. Just a suggestion.

And, I understand shaders now! Good 'ol Neophyte and MSDN DirectX9 help. Kudos Microsoft! One day you shall rule us all!



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Ninja Matt
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Posted: 24th Aug 2004 20:46
@Ion Stream:
Really, there isn't any difference between and ATI and nVidia shader - the problem was that the ATI cards were filling in a blank that I had unknowingly left, while nVidia cards weren't. That problem should be sorted now, I think.

Converting between PS 1.4 (which isn't supported by many nVidia cards) and PS 1.1 can be a bit tricky, depending on what the shader does. Usually, if you're not using any more than four textures and you're not doing any fancy texture dependent reads, the conversion is a quick and easy process. Although, if you are using them, you might need to drop a few details to make the conversion work. Certainly, in this case, it would be a good idea to make two versions of the shader, which you can then switch between with the set effect technique (I think that's right) command after determining what the hardware's capable of. Also, ATI cards run PS 1.4 faster than they do 1.1, which lends even more to the two-shader approach.
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 24th Aug 2004 22:40
Quote: "Converting between PS 1.4 (which isn't supported by many nVidia cards) "


Exceptions being: 4 Ti 4800, FX-Series, 6-Series
Same can be noted about the Radeon Series which do not support PS 1.3 which is NVIDIA design which works on the 3 and above.

However you also have to take into consideration the speed.
While the Radeon 9600/9700/9800 will run 1.4 faster than 1.1, it also runs 2.0 faster than 1.1 however not as fast as 1.4 (this is true on both Geforce and Radeon cards) ... there are reasons behind this.
Geforce FX/6-Series will run 2.0 faster than 1.x, there are reasons behind this as well.

To developer system friendly shaders, it is *highly* recommended you develop:
Geforce 2/4mx : Shader 1.0 (Dark Basic Professional doesn't support this, want to know why. Ask Lee)
Geforce 3/4ti / Radeon 8500 / SiS Xabre / S3 DeltaChrome / Matrox Perhilia : Shader 1.1 (not 1.2/1.3/1.4)
Geforce 9500/9700/9000 : Shader 1.4 (performance boost is around 25% over 2.0 unfortunately you still lack alot of control 2.0 gives you)
Geforce FX-Series / Radeon 9-Series/X-Series : Shader 2.0 (not 2.0+)
Geforce 6-Series : Shader 3.0 (Dark Basic Professional doesn't support this currently, however is no doubt planned)

Only difference between the Shaders above, is that the Geforce *requires* you to actually write out the entire shader. Radeons allow you to become a lazy programmer, it also will optimise the Shader when this is the case. This can cause results to not be what you expect them. So be careful of this!

There are many ways to make water, Shaders are *not* always the answer. Infact they are very rarely the answer, particularly with game developers in a language/engine.
I would suggest using Shaders only when standard means are too slow or unavailable. Even then with DarkBasic Professionals support for shaders hardly being ideal, don't look for it to exactly be the best solution either.


Ninja Matt
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Posted: 25th Aug 2004 07:01
What's this? Have you stopped the argument yourself? How rare...

Still, I'm as thankful as I am suprised - I'd much rather have a constructive discussion than a flame war. Forgive and forget?

So, basically, at my level at least: make 1.4 for Radeon cards, and keep it simple with 1.1 or 1.3 for nVidia cards? Granted, some run faster with 2.0, but that's above me at the moment and I doubt that any 1.x shader I make would particularly strain such a card anyway!

As for water, I'd have thought that shaders would be the perfect tool. Water is generally one of those natural problem areas for the fixed-function pipeline, due to it's complexity, reflectivity and fluidic nature. While I'm sure it's possible to make good looking water effects without shaders (although I haven't managed to!), you really need those texture dependent reads to get the best-looking and most realistic effects. Unfortunately, you can also benefit quite a lot from render targets, which I don't know how to use yet. Darn.

Does DB have support for render targets yet? I'm hanging on to version 5.2, so I'm not entirely sure of the more recent patch developments.

On a side note, I actually would like to see your shaders, Raven. Not for the aforementioned reasons, but because it's difficult to get hold of any shader, let alone ASM ones, and I find it helpful to collect them for reference and ideas. Particularly ideas when it comes to cramming extra texture data and instructions into them!

Finally, the updated normal mapping shader that I'm working on is coming along nicely. I managed to get two, coloured, point lights into it last night, and the basis is there for the specular lighting too. I would have got more done if I hadn't spent an hour just making a test image to use it with! Providing I don't happen upon too many hitches, it should be done for tomorrow night.
Peter H
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Posted: 25th Aug 2004 07:13
lol i ran the program and i got 0,0...with my stupid geforce 4

i wish they had made that card better then geforce 3...

"We make the worst games in the universe."

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